I certainly believe in miracles, but I agree that there are a lot of phonys out there. (And maybe some not so phony?) It's not new: See Mark 9:38-40:
Quote:
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.
(Also repeated in Luke 9: 49-50.)
Also, remember Acts 19:13-16:
Quote:
Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
But even more to the point is 2 Peter 2:1:
Quote:
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
You are absolutely right to be skeptical. That much should be glaringly obvious. The apparent fact that so many people buy into this kind of religion entertainment (I use this term in the same sense that professional wrestling is referred to as "sports entertainment") is a bit disturbing but not all that surprising. People want immediate and undeniable confirmation of their beliefs. They want to be right. What could be more affirming than to turn on the TV and BOOM! there's God healing people before your very eyes, and some guy with bad hair is telling you that if you believe in him you're saved. And you didn't even have to get off your couch!
If you spend some time watching this sort of programming, you'll find that it often also affirms plenty of other beliefs: prejudices, hatred, bigotry, and self-righteousness. Bear in mind that you still haven't gotten off your butt, and you're feeling better and better about yourself and your position in the cosmos all the time. It's entertainment, sensationalist media, and candy-bar-like instant gratification all at the same time. Not to mention that the guy with bad hair is raking in money hand over fist.
This is not what most sensible religious people believe in. Neither are those contemporary Christian music shows where a mediocre singer repeats the same meaningless lyric over and over while a stadium full of people wave their hands in the air in poroxysms of spiritual fervor. These things are devoid of any real substance and are insulting to the intelligence and integrity of the Christian community, at least as I know it.
Back to skepticism. Skepticism, in my opinion, is integral and vital to real religion. You gain nothing spiritually from "proving" the existence of a deity by performing miracles or providing evidence for the actual occurrence of historical events. If these are the things that matter to you religiously (and they obviously do to a great number of people) then you have entirely missed the point. The real point is the message behind all of that. There are useful and important lessons to be learned from nearly all religious teachings, Christian or otherwise. The issue of who is right and who is wrong is simply irrelevant. It would be exceedingly arrogant for any of us to assume that we and we alone have the truth and the whole truth about the Divine nailed down. Even the most rudimentary study of history will easily do away with all the claims of infallability and divinely inspired writing and whatever, so I don't want to hear it. People believe what they were brought up to believe, or else at some point they make a conscious decision to believe something else. Proof is simply not accessible.
When it comes right down to it (and I'm sure this statement could be effectively applied to any religion), for all that Jesus' teachings were primarily in the form of metaphor, it's amazing that so many people fail to grasp the significance of the metaphor that was his life.
I guess that little rant went a bit outside the scope of the original post, but I sure feel better for having gotten it off my chest.
Just for some perspective, I was raised as a Christian ( a Methodist, to be precise), I have a BA in philosophy, and I am a fan of professional wrestling.
You were raised as a Christisn?
The latest Barna Group research survey (March 2001) revealed that America's churches are full of cultural Christians. Such people have grown up in Christianity, they attend church regularly, and they profess to be Christians. What distinguishes them from other Christians is their lack of a personal relationship with Jesus. In short, they are Christians in name only because they have never been born again.
Former President Jimmy Carter was the one who made Americans conscious of the term "born again Christian." That is the label he applied to himself in 1976 when he was campaigning for the presidency. I remember how many Christian leaders rushed to the press to proclaim that they were not "one of those born again types." I found their protestations very interesting in view of the fact that Jesus Himself said that no one can enter Heaven unless they are born again (John 3:3).
The cultural Christian is just that, a person who considers himself to be a Christian because he has been raised in a Christian culture. Al Gore is a good example. He was raised in a Southern Baptist heritage, but during his presidential campaign, he made it clear that Christianity was only his "faith heritage" and nothing more. The cultural Christian, if he has any commitment at all, is committed to religion or a church, and not to Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. Such a person is unsaved.
The Barna Group defines the next step up as the "born again Christian." These are people who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and who believe that salvation is dependent upon their relationship with Jesus. These people are saved.
Barna defines the highest level of Christian commitment to be the "evangelical Christian." This is a born again person who strongly holds to certain fundamental biblical truths. Only 7% of Americans qualify as evangelicals, as opposed to 41% who could be classified as born again.
What are you? Could you qualify as an evangelical Christian? Below is the test that Barna gives.
The good news is that Americans who were polled, whether Christian or not, strongly agreed on three biblical points. Almost 75% agreed that God created the universe an incredible number when you consider all the evolutionist propaganda we are bombarded with daily. Almost 70% rejected the idea that sin is an outdate concept another incredible response when you consider the "different strokes for different folks" mentality that seems to predominate today. Not surprisingly, 50% stated that they believed in the reality of angels and their influence.
The bad news is that the number of born again adults who held views contrary to the Bible was astonishing. Almost 70% agreed that the Bible teaches that God helps those who help themselves. Fifty-three percent denied the existence of the Holy Spirit as a person! Forty-seven percent stated that they did not believe in the existence of Satan. Thirty-one percent said they felt a good person could earn his way into heaven; 30% denied the physical resurrection of Jesus; and 24% said they thought Jesus had committed sins!
Such an abysmal lack of biblical knowledge about the fundamentals of the faith points to a famine of Bible study and preaching in the churches of America. People are obviously hearing inspirational ditties or warmed over homilies from the Reader's Digest. We can be thankful that we are not saved by biblical knowledge but by a relationship with Jesus. But a lack of biblical knowledge stunts spiritual growth and opens people up to doctrinal heresies and cultic deception.
The Barna Group defines the next step up as the "born again Christian." These are people who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and who believe that salvation is dependent upon their relationship with Jesus.
What if it is a same-sex union in Vermont? Now THAT'S a personal relationship with Jesus.
And another thread goes to shit, thank you commissars of the theistic and atheistic clans.
On to Pscates original topic. TV faith-healing is most definitely a sham, it's been proven (using infiltrated audience members) a few times. I dunno if anyone's ever nabbed Benny Hinn in a scam, but they caught others. You don't hear about it for a number of reasons related to lawyers and money.
What is the Barna Group? Are you a cultural Barna or a born again Barna? Who wrote the Barna survey and the Barna definitions? What makes them any more or less correct than anything else of that sort ever written?
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Some people are entirely focused on labels, groups, and factoids. What am I? You may attempt to categorize me or define me by the culture I grew up in or the answers I give on a survy, but that is purely for your own benefit. It is an abstraction of reality to aid you in judging my place in the world and how it relates to your own.
I find no solace, and in fact no point at all, in identifying myself as belonging to any particular social construct. You may worry about my immortal soul, my position in the afterlife, and my relationship with Christ. That's honestly none of your concern. I may hold some beliefs and values in common with you, but we do not and literally cannot share beliefs. My thoughts, experiences, and beliefes are uniquely mine and mine alone because, like all human beings, the contents of my mind are directly accessible only to myself.
I constantly and deeply question my own beliefs and values, because in fact there are no inarguable answers. I am intensely interested in hearing and understanding all teachings. The more I learn, the more I can contemplate when trying to form my own opinions.
Yes, I was raised as a Christian, but at some point in my life I began to think for myself and to believe not what I was told, but what I could deduce from what I was told. Nothing, especially of a spiritual or thological nature, can reallly be proven, and I don't believe that truth, in the sense of hard facts, is the real point of religion.
You might call me agnostic, or confused, or a philosopher, or damned to Hell. You don't know the truth any more than I do. What I do know is that the more you listen, read, and learn; the more you will realize that everybody of every background has a great deal in common, and it is senseless to let names and labels divide us.
Matsu nailed it. The phenomenon pscates is wondering about has nothing to do with Christianity, or religion in general. It's good old fashioned prestidigitation, only with willing accomplices getting "healed" rather than "sawn in half".
This has nothing to do with questions about whether some people are natural healers, or whether faith can heal (although it's documented that the patient's outlook is critical to recovery), or whether any particular solution is statistically more effective than the placebo effect, which is itself an odd sort of faith (in medicine) healing.
There are certainly limits to our understanding, particularly in regard to the human body. Some people explore those limits for the benefit of others; the people pscates wonders about take advantage of them at the expense of others.
My thoughts, experiences, and beliefes are uniquely mine and mine alone because, like all human beings, the contents of my mind are directly accessible only to myself.
Yes yes, I'm aware that this is a forum, and forum etiquette dictates that posters should stick to the original topic of the thread.
Funk dat!
This has been an enjoyable and interesting discussion, and I've heard no serious complaints from pscates. It was and is my feeling that the question at hand begs some deeper discussion of religion and belief. Besides, one has to do something to pass the time at work on a slow Friday afternoon.
p.s. thuh Freak, that whole 'plants have feelings' thing is nothing new, and it is extremely interesting. So are serious studies into the paranormal. They don't do a whole lot to diffuse my point, but they're at least a whole lot more credible than, say, that pet psychic woman. Yech!
Benny Hinn does not heal anyone. The Holy Spirit however is another matter.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(Acts 1:8 )
I can not say I have ever been healed via the topic of this thread. I can say I have fallen under the power of the holy spirit twice in my life about 6 years ago and it has changed my life in awesome ways.
I've been flipping around the channels recently and always seem to come across this Benny Hinn fellow and will watch his onstage presentations where he allegedly heals people, from out of the audience, of their various ailments and handicaps.
Benny Hill? Greatest healer of all times some would say. My personal favorite "healing moment" was the infamous soccer goalie routine, played back at double speed. I'm gonna tell yah right now - healed me completely. I gotta make sure I find a copy of that so when I'm old and falling apart he can heal me some mo!
Quote:
I'm NOT bashing, mocking OR looking to start a big "Christianity sucks..." thread (it doesn't)
plus many local churches double as disaster relief, women's shelters, homeless shelters etc.
of course they put their own spin on it, but they also provide services. Benny sounds like he's not doing much for the local community.
Oh, I agree. But aren't church's exempt from tax and so forth? So really, they are just giving back for the free ride they enjoy. Plus they probably get grants to help with all of this.
As Ron Hubbard once said, if you want to make money, start a religion.
Comments
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.
(Also repeated in Luke 9: 49-50.)
Also, remember Acts 19:13-16:
Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
But even more to the point is 2 Peter 2:1:
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Originally posted by Influenza
You are absolutely right to be skeptical. That much should be glaringly obvious. The apparent fact that so many people buy into this kind of religion entertainment (I use this term in the same sense that professional wrestling is referred to as "sports entertainment") is a bit disturbing but not all that surprising. People want immediate and undeniable confirmation of their beliefs. They want to be right. What could be more affirming than to turn on the TV and BOOM! there's God healing people before your very eyes, and some guy with bad hair is telling you that if you believe in him you're saved. And you didn't even have to get off your couch!
If you spend some time watching this sort of programming, you'll find that it often also affirms plenty of other beliefs: prejudices, hatred, bigotry, and self-righteousness. Bear in mind that you still haven't gotten off your butt, and you're feeling better and better about yourself and your position in the cosmos all the time. It's entertainment, sensationalist media, and candy-bar-like instant gratification all at the same time. Not to mention that the guy with bad hair is raking in money hand over fist.
This is not what most sensible religious people believe in. Neither are those contemporary Christian music shows where a mediocre singer repeats the same meaningless lyric over and over while a stadium full of people wave their hands in the air in poroxysms of spiritual fervor. These things are devoid of any real substance and are insulting to the intelligence and integrity of the Christian community, at least as I know it.
Back to skepticism. Skepticism, in my opinion, is integral and vital to real religion. You gain nothing spiritually from "proving" the existence of a deity by performing miracles or providing evidence for the actual occurrence of historical events. If these are the things that matter to you religiously (and they obviously do to a great number of people) then you have entirely missed the point. The real point is the message behind all of that. There are useful and important lessons to be learned from nearly all religious teachings, Christian or otherwise. The issue of who is right and who is wrong is simply irrelevant. It would be exceedingly arrogant for any of us to assume that we and we alone have the truth and the whole truth about the Divine nailed down. Even the most rudimentary study of history will easily do away with all the claims of infallability and divinely inspired writing and whatever, so I don't want to hear it. People believe what they were brought up to believe, or else at some point they make a conscious decision to believe something else. Proof is simply not accessible.
When it comes right down to it (and I'm sure this statement could be effectively applied to any religion), for all that Jesus' teachings were primarily in the form of metaphor, it's amazing that so many people fail to grasp the significance of the metaphor that was his life.
I guess that little rant went a bit outside the scope of the original post, but I sure feel better for having gotten it off my chest.
Just for some perspective, I was raised as a Christian ( a Methodist, to be precise), I have a BA in philosophy, and I am a fan of professional wrestling.
You were raised as a Christisn?
The latest Barna Group research survey (March 2001) revealed that America's churches are full of cultural Christians. Such people have grown up in Christianity, they attend church regularly, and they profess to be Christians. What distinguishes them from other Christians is their lack of a personal relationship with Jesus. In short, they are Christians in name only because they have never been born again.
Former President Jimmy Carter was the one who made Americans conscious of the term "born again Christian." That is the label he applied to himself in 1976 when he was campaigning for the presidency. I remember how many Christian leaders rushed to the press to proclaim that they were not "one of those born again types." I found their protestations very interesting in view of the fact that Jesus Himself said that no one can enter Heaven unless they are born again (John 3:3).
The cultural Christian is just that, a person who considers himself to be a Christian because he has been raised in a Christian culture. Al Gore is a good example. He was raised in a Southern Baptist heritage, but during his presidential campaign, he made it clear that Christianity was only his "faith heritage" and nothing more. The cultural Christian, if he has any commitment at all, is committed to religion or a church, and not to Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. Such a person is unsaved.
The Barna Group defines the next step up as the "born again Christian." These are people who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and who believe that salvation is dependent upon their relationship with Jesus. These people are saved.
Barna defines the highest level of Christian commitment to be the "evangelical Christian." This is a born again person who strongly holds to certain fundamental biblical truths. Only 7% of Americans qualify as evangelicals, as opposed to 41% who could be classified as born again.
What are you? Could you qualify as an evangelical Christian? Below is the test that Barna gives.
The good news is that Americans who were polled, whether Christian or not, strongly agreed on three biblical points. Almost 75% agreed that God created the universe an incredible number when you consider all the evolutionist propaganda we are bombarded with daily. Almost 70% rejected the idea that sin is an outdate concept another incredible response when you consider the "different strokes for different folks" mentality that seems to predominate today. Not surprisingly, 50% stated that they believed in the reality of angels and their influence.
The bad news is that the number of born again adults who held views contrary to the Bible was astonishing. Almost 70% agreed that the Bible teaches that God helps those who help themselves. Fifty-three percent denied the existence of the Holy Spirit as a person! Forty-seven percent stated that they did not believe in the existence of Satan. Thirty-one percent said they felt a good person could earn his way into heaven; 30% denied the physical resurrection of Jesus; and 24% said they thought Jesus had committed sins!
Such an abysmal lack of biblical knowledge about the fundamentals of the faith points to a famine of Bible study and preaching in the churches of America. People are obviously hearing inspirational ditties or warmed over homilies from the Reader's Digest. We can be thankful that we are not saved by biblical knowledge but by a relationship with Jesus. But a lack of biblical knowledge stunts spiritual growth and opens people up to doctrinal heresies and cultic deception.
The Barna Group defines the next step up as the "born again Christian." These are people who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and who believe that salvation is dependent upon their relationship with Jesus.
What if it is a same-sex union in Vermont? Now THAT'S a personal relationship with Jesus.
Yes, that frightening expression says it all.
On to Pscates original topic. TV faith-healing is most definitely a sham, it's been proven (using infiltrated audience members) a few times. I dunno if anyone's ever nabbed Benny Hinn in a scam, but they caught others. You don't hear about it for a number of reasons related to lawyers and money.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Some people are entirely focused on labels, groups, and factoids. What am I? You may attempt to categorize me or define me by the culture I grew up in or the answers I give on a survy, but that is purely for your own benefit. It is an abstraction of reality to aid you in judging my place in the world and how it relates to your own.
I find no solace, and in fact no point at all, in identifying myself as belonging to any particular social construct. You may worry about my immortal soul, my position in the afterlife, and my relationship with Christ. That's honestly none of your concern. I may hold some beliefs and values in common with you, but we do not and literally cannot share beliefs. My thoughts, experiences, and beliefes are uniquely mine and mine alone because, like all human beings, the contents of my mind are directly accessible only to myself.
I constantly and deeply question my own beliefs and values, because in fact there are no inarguable answers. I am intensely interested in hearing and understanding all teachings. The more I learn, the more I can contemplate when trying to form my own opinions.
Yes, I was raised as a Christian, but at some point in my life I began to think for myself and to believe not what I was told, but what I could deduce from what I was told. Nothing, especially of a spiritual or thological nature, can reallly be proven, and I don't believe that truth, in the sense of hard facts, is the real point of religion.
You might call me agnostic, or confused, or a philosopher, or damned to Hell. You don't know the truth any more than I do. What I do know is that the more you listen, read, and learn; the more you will realize that everybody of every background has a great deal in common, and it is senseless to let names and labels divide us.
This has nothing to do with questions about whether some people are natural healers, or whether faith can heal (although it's documented that the patient's outlook is critical to recovery), or whether any particular solution is statistically more effective than the placebo effect, which is itself an odd sort of faith (in medicine) healing.
There are certainly limits to our understanding, particularly in regard to the human body. Some people explore those limits for the benefit of others; the people pscates wonders about take advantage of them at the expense of others.
Originally posted by Influenza
My thoughts, experiences, and beliefes are uniquely mine and mine alone because, like all human beings, the contents of my mind are directly accessible only to myself.
maybe not.
Funk dat!
This has been an enjoyable and interesting discussion, and I've heard no serious complaints from pscates. It was and is my feeling that the question at hand begs some deeper discussion of religion and belief. Besides, one has to do something to pass the time at work on a slow Friday afternoon.
p.s. thuh Freak, that whole 'plants have feelings' thing is nothing new, and it is extremely interesting. So are serious studies into the paranormal. They don't do a whole lot to diffuse my point, but they're at least a whole lot more credible than, say, that pet psychic woman. Yech!
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(Acts 1:8 )
I can not say I have ever been healed via the topic of this thread. I can say I have fallen under the power of the holy spirit twice in my life about 6 years ago and it has changed my life in awesome ways.
Fellowship
Carry on.
Originally posted by pscates
This thread is going pretty well, considering. Way better than I ever imagined
Carry on.
So did anyone see Steve Martin's film.
" Leap of faith "
The story about a holy-roller church group going around the mid-west suckering money out of the poor, the desperate & the needy.
It was a nice film with a bit of a suprise twist ending to it.. ( Had Meatloaf in it too ).
Originally posted by Barto
Mentioned earlier in the thread.
Ooops
I've been flipping around the channels recently and always seem to come across this Benny Hinn fellow and will watch his onstage presentations where he allegedly heals people, from out of the audience, of their various ailments and handicaps.
Benny Hill? Greatest healer of all times some would say. My personal favorite "healing moment" was the infamous soccer goalie routine, played back at double speed. I'm gonna tell yah right now - healed me completely. I gotta make sure I find a copy of that so when I'm old and falling apart he can heal me some mo!
I'm NOT bashing, mocking OR looking to start a big "Christianity sucks..." thread (it doesn't)
Can I get an "Ay-mehyn" brothrs and sistrs?
Both offer what their audience wants to hear. Both take your money. Both say you can be healed by an invisible being.
Benny Hinn just happens to make lots of money from TV. The other guy is a front man for a multi billion dollar organisation.
Is making money from TV any different than making it from property, or tithings?
That puts him in a separate league, all to himself.
of course they put their own spin on it, but they also provide services. Benny sounds like he's not doing much for the local community.
Originally posted by alcimedes
plus many local churches double as disaster relief, women's shelters, homeless shelters etc.
of course they put their own spin on it, but they also provide services. Benny sounds like he's not doing much for the local community.
Oh, I agree. But aren't church's exempt from tax and so forth? So really, they are just giving back for the free ride they enjoy. Plus they probably get grants to help with all of this.
As Ron Hubbard once said, if you want to make money, start a religion.