Like I said in the other silly thread about Happy Anniversary IE:
This is no laughing matter. It really is discontinued. See [url]http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=43191here. What is next, Office? Unless it is officially by Microsoft you can never guarantee 100% file format compatability, and this is of course intentional by M$ so people have to buy Windows and Office. It is the way the world works, they're an evil monopoly.
And I can't get VirtualPC to see my Ethernet so I'm SOL if I need IE. I'm looking into online banking and I hear IE is required for many of these sites. Also PeopleSoft likes to crash Safari.
Remember how M$ said they'd keep making Mac Office? I bet the MacBU will be closed soon. This is bad. Sure Apple's software is better but as Bill Gates said in Pirates of Silicon Valley 'That's not the point. You just don't get it.'
On the upside that is a lot of Mac programmers Apple can hire.
JLL responded:
Not unless MS also kills Office on Windows - IE is also discontinued on Windows and will now become a fully integrated part of Windows.
JLL I'm sure they are working on it. They've been integrating Office into Windows for a while.
Wasn't M$ ORDERED BY A COURT to NOT INTEGRATE EXPLORER into Windows?
I can't believe the way M$ takes the law and beats it like a redheaded stepchild.
Losing IE isn't a big deal for Mac users (Safari is more than a replacement, it's a very large improvement). But the worry is if Microsoft is not just killing IE for Mac, but starting a trend of killing Mac software. No office for Mac would be terrible.
It would be very hard for Apple to get any business or enterprise sales without Office working on their machines.
Schools would also rethink buying Macs when the major software suite used in business is not used on the machines they are teaching their children with to prepare them for the business world.
As far as Adobe and Quark...
Quark is too little, too late and the company is losing their dominant footing in professional page layout. If Adobe is encouraging people not to use Macs (which I haven't seen them do), then Apple should open up that fat wallet of cash they've been hording and buy Adobe. Start putting out the Windows versions of InDesign, Photoshop and others after the Mac versions have been out for awhile and you'll definetly keep your professional design and layout users.
But the point is, if Microsoft stops making Office for Mac... it is very, very bad news.
"No IE 6 is planned," [Microsoft Product Manager Jessica] Sommer said in a telephone interview. "Safari is turning into a better answer for (Apple) customers."
...
Microsoft plans to keep the existing versions of IE available on its Mac Web site. The company is releasing a minor upgrade--IE version 5.2.3--to the OS X browser on Monday. Although a minor update to the Mac OS 9 version of the browser will also come within the next month, it is unclear how many releases will follow. "It depends, as things come up," Sommer said.
...
"We are absolutely still on track with Office," she said. "We're working on the next version of Office. We are working on the next version of Virtual PC for the Mac."
I think it is good news. Web developers are now forced to look at web standards if they want Mac useres as customers.
i wish i could agree, but as a semi-professional web designer, i can say that all of my clients pitch an f'n fit if i use the "standards vs. internet explorer support" argument.
also, there are still some problems with IE's support of CSS1 (and don't get me started on CSS2) that i was hoping would get fixed in IE 6. now they never will, and since many of my clients never think to upgrade unless a.) i tell them to or b.) microsoft tells 'em to, i will have to build in support for IE5 in my web pages for several more years.
the thing that REALLY pisses me off is that microsoft has the audacity to say that mac customers want things that only tight integration with the os-level allows. what? like FULL CSS1 support??? (not the core, the whole bloody level) that doesn't require os-level tie-ins, just some time and care on ms's part to get it done. sheesh. even an IE 5.5 update migth at least fix that!
The whole "tie-in at the OS level" blurb was to justify IE for Windows, not Mac. MS thinks we (or rather the press, and they would be right) don't understand the difference between an app and a framework. I remember during the MS anti-trust trial, Avie testified that you should/could remove a browser and still have the system run properly because the browser is just the front-end.
As far as Adobe and Quark, they do encourage customers to upgrade to windows machines and encourage new large accounts to go with windows for all their needs. Adobe at least has been moving its UI towards the Windows standard in the last 2 major product cycles, and I only assume it will continue. Quark's idiotic front office has publicly made comments about wanting to get out of the Mac market, the only thing holding them in is their huge user base there. If they could change that, they could, and they are making a difference.
Wasn't M$ ORDERED BY A COURT to NOT INTEGRATE EXPLORER into Windows? I can't believe the way M$ takes the law and beats it like a redheaded stepchild.
yup, and i have yet to figure out ms can use those rulings against it, yet STILL get AOL to essentially jettison netscape in favor of internet explorer for the next seven years (which essentially means netscape won the battle in the court, but microsoft won the war).
i just do NOT understand how people are willign to let this stuff just slide. i'm not even so much mad at microsoft. hell, they're just in it for as much money and marketshare as possible -- it's not their faults that absolutely no one has bothered to try to stop them, or every attempt has been futile at best.
I am not sure what to do with MS. But if Apple is having problems with Adobe/Quark I say buy them. Apple can't buy MS but I bet they could make a bid for Quark especially.
I do think they should stop coming up with competing products i.e. Safari & iPhoto against Elements and instead buy some of these lagging companies, bring the Mac stuff out a head and continue developing the Windows stuff when they get a free day.
This way Apple is more diversified, they guarantee themselves the top apps, and they can start screwing windows.
They have already started this with their Music aquisitions.
I'm not so sure iPhoto competes with Adobe's offerings. FCP is the only one, though that might be enough to piss off Adobe, but God knows almost no one above iMovie skills used it anyway.
Aquatic. rok, I believe MS was originally ordered not to integrate IE in the original ruling by Judge Jackson, but they were also ordered to be broken up into three pieces too. The DoJ threw ALL of that out.
Microsoft did however agree to a few billion dollar settlements (not really worth that much) with state cases like that in California.
This is a HUGE turn of events. And Apple users should raise a huge stink about this.
by the way, the general point i was trying to make was that i wanted micorosoft to FIX the parts of the browser that don't work correctly, rather than just dumping development. otherwise, those proken rules persist much longer because the average joe doesn't think to update (especially for something like web access).
for those who are seriously into web design (and want to see what others are saying when they say IE 5 sucks, and safari rules), check out the website of the master, eric meyer, and his "edge" web work, where he takes CSS and uses them to their utmost.
now take his various examples, and try them in safari and then internet explorer, and see where things start to break down. safari does an incredible task of keeping up.
also, another site that uses CSS really realy well is (believe it or not) Quark.com . just look at the code -- all the positioning handled through CSS (though watch how that positioning breaks down in IE for mac, especially when the window's size is small). safari remains "rok-solid".
True, but those who buy Office for Mac are those who need Office. What will they do if it's no longer an option? If they desperately need Office, they have to buy Office for Windows and Windows as well of course. That could mean even more profit for MS. So from a business point of view, it could still make sense to close MBU, even if it's showing profit.
I'm not talking 'Apple is doomed' here. But if (and only if) at one time, MS decides to drop the Mac platform Apple has a real problem.
[B]If they desperately need Office, they have to buy Office for Windows and Windows as well of course. That could mean even more profit for MS.
now, if you're REALLY into conspiracy theory, the wheels start turning and recall that ms just bought connectix virtual PC. they could probably improve its performance a decent amount, which would allow them to sell mac users a copy of virtual pc, windows, and the windows version of office al at once. no more r&d for mac office necessary, they get a lot more purchases of windows licenses than they used to, and don't have to deal with the rogue influence of the macbu anymore -- only the virtual pc team.
now, if you're REALLY into conspiracy theory, the wheels start turning and recall that ms just bought connectix virtual PC. they could probably improve its performance a decent amount, which would allow them to sell mac users a copy of virtual pc, windows, and the windows version of office al at once.
Bingo!
MS: "You don't have to buy a new Windows computer to get Office, that's why we provide VPC for Macintosh!"
Press: "Microsoft hears plight of Apple users, gives away Office."
Us: "Oh, wow, they're practically giving it away. How often does VPC hang OS X for the rest of you?"
I would like to throw IE into trash can, but I just can't. At work I use Windows and we have some internal site, which work only with IE. The most stupid thing is that some our internal sites work only with IE5.5SP1, IE5.5SP2 and Netscape 4.75. They don't work with IE6. Newest MSDN works only with IE6. There you go....
Remember that there is also IE available for UNIX like Solaris and HP-UX. So Microsoft will also drop those.
There is Mozilla available for OS X. It's very compatible with different sites. It's the most conpatible IE browser after IE itself. When they get Mozilla faster, we should not worry so much.
Why we need different browsers for different sites? We have HTML standard. What we have done wrong?
Comments
This is no laughing matter. It really is discontinued. See [url]http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=43191here. What is next, Office? Unless it is officially by Microsoft you can never guarantee 100% file format compatability, and this is of course intentional by M$ so people have to buy Windows and Office. It is the way the world works, they're an evil monopoly.
And I can't get VirtualPC to see my Ethernet so I'm SOL if I need IE. I'm looking into online banking and I hear IE is required for many of these sites. Also PeopleSoft likes to crash Safari.
Remember how M$ said they'd keep making Mac Office? I bet the MacBU will be closed soon. This is bad. Sure Apple's software is better but as Bill Gates said in Pirates of Silicon Valley 'That's not the point. You just don't get it.'
On the upside that is a lot of Mac programmers Apple can hire.
JLL responded:
Not unless MS also kills Office on Windows - IE is also discontinued on Windows and will now become a fully integrated part of Windows.
JLL I'm sure they are working on it. They've been integrating Office into Windows for a while.
Wasn't M$ ORDERED BY A COURT to NOT INTEGRATE EXPLORER into Windows?
I can't believe the way M$ takes the law and beats it like a redheaded stepchild.
Go Mozilla & KHTML gooooooo!
Originally posted by Aquatic
Wasn't M$ ORDERED BY A COURT to NOT INTEGRATE EXPLORER into Windows?
Yeah. I don't see that having any relevence, what's your point?
Barto
MS doesn't make money on mac IE.
The mac IE agreement was made when IE didn't own the browser market. Now that it does, it's no longer as important to have apple use IE.
When office for mac doesn't make them money or Apple gets 15% marketshare, it may get discontinued.
It would be very hard for Apple to get any business or enterprise sales without Office working on their machines.
Schools would also rethink buying Macs when the major software suite used in business is not used on the machines they are teaching their children with to prepare them for the business world.
As far as Adobe and Quark...
Quark is too little, too late and the company is losing their dominant footing in professional page layout. If Adobe is encouraging people not to use Macs (which I haven't seen them do), then Apple should open up that fat wallet of cash they've been hording and buy Adobe. Start putting out the Windows versions of InDesign, Photoshop and others after the Mac versions have been out for awhile and you'll definetly keep your professional design and layout users.
But the point is, if Microsoft stops making Office for Mac... it is very, very bad news.
Originally posted by xmoger
MS makes money on office for mac.
True.
It's always money.
New article.
"No IE 6 is planned," [Microsoft Product Manager Jessica] Sommer said in a telephone interview. "Safari is turning into a better answer for (Apple) customers."
...
Microsoft plans to keep the existing versions of IE available on its Mac Web site. The company is releasing a minor upgrade--IE version 5.2.3--to the OS X browser on Monday. Although a minor update to the Mac OS 9 version of the browser will also come within the next month, it is unclear how many releases will follow. "It depends, as things come up," Sommer said.
...
"We are absolutely still on track with Office," she said. "We're working on the next version of Office. We are working on the next version of Virtual PC for the Mac."
Barto
Originally posted by JLL
I think it is good news. Web developers are now forced to look at web standards if they want Mac useres as customers.
i wish i could agree, but as a semi-professional web designer, i can say that all of my clients pitch an f'n fit if i use the "standards vs. internet explorer support" argument.
also, there are still some problems with IE's support of CSS1 (and don't get me started on CSS2) that i was hoping would get fixed in IE 6. now they never will, and since many of my clients never think to upgrade unless a.) i tell them to or b.) microsoft tells 'em to, i will have to build in support for IE5 in my web pages for several more years.
the thing that REALLY pisses me off is that microsoft has the audacity to say that mac customers want things that only tight integration with the os-level allows. what? like FULL CSS1 support??? (not the core, the whole bloody level) that doesn't require os-level tie-ins, just some time and care on ms's part to get it done. sheesh. even an IE 5.5 update migth at least fix that!
someone just shoot me.
As far as Adobe and Quark, they do encourage customers to upgrade to windows machines and encourage new large accounts to go with windows for all their needs. Adobe at least has been moving its UI towards the Windows standard in the last 2 major product cycles, and I only assume it will continue. Quark's idiotic front office has publicly made comments about wanting to get out of the Mac market, the only thing holding them in is their huge user base there. If they could change that, they could, and they are making a difference.
Originally posted by Aquatic
Wasn't M$ ORDERED BY A COURT to NOT INTEGRATE EXPLORER into Windows? I can't believe the way M$ takes the law and beats it like a redheaded stepchild.
yup, and i have yet to figure out ms can use those rulings against it, yet STILL get AOL to essentially jettison netscape in favor of internet explorer for the next seven years (which essentially means netscape won the battle in the court, but microsoft won the war).
i just do NOT understand how people are willign to let this stuff just slide. i'm not even so much mad at microsoft. hell, they're just in it for as much money and marketshare as possible -- it's not their faults that absolutely no one has bothered to try to stop them, or every attempt has been futile at best.
I do think they should stop coming up with competing products i.e. Safari & iPhoto against Elements and instead buy some of these lagging companies, bring the Mac stuff out a head and continue developing the Windows stuff when they get a free day.
This way Apple is more diversified, they guarantee themselves the top apps, and they can start screwing windows.
They have already started this with their Music aquisitions.
Microsoft did however agree to a few billion dollar settlements (not really worth that much) with state cases like that in California.
This is a HUGE turn of events. And Apple users should raise a huge stink about this.
for those who are seriously into web design (and want to see what others are saying when they say IE 5 sucks, and safari rules), check out the website of the master, eric meyer, and his "edge" web work, where he takes CSS and uses them to their utmost.
The CSS Edge
now take his various examples, and try them in safari and then internet explorer, and see where things start to break down. safari does an incredible task of keeping up.
also, another site that uses CSS really realy well is (believe it or not) Quark.com . just look at the code -- all the positioning handled through CSS (though watch how that positioning breaks down in IE for mac, especially when the window's size is small). safari remains "rok-solid".
Originally posted by xmoger
MS makes money on office for mac.
True, but those who buy Office for Mac are those who need Office. What will they do if it's no longer an option? If they desperately need Office, they have to buy Office for Windows and Windows as well of course. That could mean even more profit for MS. So from a business point of view, it could still make sense to close MBU, even if it's showing profit.
I'm not talking 'Apple is doomed' here. But if (and only if) at one time, MS decides to drop the Mac platform Apple has a real problem.
Originally posted by kelib
I'm not talking 'Apple is doomed' here. But if (and only if) at one time, MS decides to drop the Mac platform Apple has a real problem.
s/if/when/g
Originally posted by kelib
[B]If they desperately need Office, they have to buy Office for Windows and Windows as well of course. That could mean even more profit for MS.
now, if you're REALLY into conspiracy theory, the wheels start turning and recall that ms just bought connectix virtual PC. they could probably improve its performance a decent amount, which would allow them to sell mac users a copy of virtual pc, windows, and the windows version of office al at once. no more r&d for mac office necessary, they get a lot more purchases of windows licenses than they used to, and don't have to deal with the rogue influence of the macbu anymore -- only the virtual pc team.
ask me if that hasn't kept me awake at night.
Originally posted by rok
now, if you're REALLY into conspiracy theory, the wheels start turning and recall that ms just bought connectix virtual PC. they could probably improve its performance a decent amount, which would allow them to sell mac users a copy of virtual pc, windows, and the windows version of office al at once.
Bingo!
MS: "You don't have to buy a new Windows computer to get Office, that's why we provide VPC for Macintosh!"
Press: "Microsoft hears plight of Apple users, gives away Office."
Us: "Oh, wow, they're practically giving it away.
Remember that there is also IE available for UNIX like Solaris and HP-UX. So Microsoft will also drop those.
There is Mozilla available for OS X. It's very compatible with different sites. It's the most conpatible IE browser after IE itself. When they get Mozilla faster, we should not worry so much.
Why we need different browsers for different sites? We have HTML standard. What we have done wrong?
Originally posted by salmonstk
I have an idea/suggestion/question...
What if Apple continued Safari development but teamed with MS to roll it into Exporer?
What I mean is Apple developes the browesr but it gets called Internet Exporer from Microshaft I mean soft.
That way it would still make it past the bank etc. webpages that only take Explorer.
No it won't. Just because it has Internet Explorer in it's name wouldn't make it support the things that the banks use.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
I'm not so sure iPhoto competes with Adobe's offerings.
Photoshop Album.