<strong>Tablet spelled backwards = Ballet (well almost). Apple would do better to DANCE all over this lame concept and deliver something no larger than a Newton.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ballet=Telbat? You call that almost? I know you needed it for your punchline but come on...
<strong>I still don't understand what the point of a tablet PC is.
How many of you can write faster than you can type?
And if word processing and email are by far the largest uses for computers, both of which involve lots of typing, why the hell would anyone want to carry around a pen-based screen with shite handwriting recognition. i've used inkwell and as far as i can tell, it's just as bad as the newton.
With the exception of some scientific applications, students who may want to draw diagrams from class notes, how is a tablet PC a good option for the avergae consumer? Don't answer. It's ok. I just don't get it and likely won't until I see it making life easier...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I'm answering anyway.
If Apple can produce a pad / tablet computer that's noticably thinner, lighter, sexier, and has better battery life than the current crop of Tablet PCs, they might just have a winner on their hands.
The writing vs. typing thing is a red herring. Of course typing is better. That's not the issue. Any workable tablet has to have either a hidable keyboard, or to be able to plug into another computer or keyboard very easily.
They key factor is the ability to mix type with hand-written notes, marks, and drawings.
The key challenge is to do this in a product that isn't expensive, fiddly, overcomplicated, and weird-looking.
Here's what I think a pad / tablet computer has to offer:
- ability to mark-up reports and essays
- ability to mix writing with mathematical and scientific diagrams for taking notes, doing homework
- ability to turn the tablet to portrait view to read electronic books (which I believe will be a big enhanced feature in 10.3)
- ability to draw on screen for graphic artists (very important for this market, and very cool)
Notice how centered most of these are, on education? Microsoft is orienting the Tablet PC toward business and early adopters; Apple will take the concept and orient it toward education (where they need an edge, badly) -- plus graphic artists and consumers.
And I would actually not be surprised if Apple introduces their pad as a wireless, under $1000 complement to an existing computer, instead of replacing a laptop or desktop.
However, if they can come up with a extraordinarily clever design that has a keyboard that can fold away out of sight, and still be thin and competively priced ... more power to 'em.
I tried one of these new tablets out at CompUSA this weekend and the concept definately has legs.
The recognition for known words was pretty good, comparable to the Newton 2000, but the ease of use wasn't. I kept trying to erase stuff by scribbling over it the way you do on a newton and as far as I could tell there was no application that let you write free form on a tablet AS it recognized your writing. Instead I had to write in a special little box if I wanted it to be recognized.
The thing (I forget what maker) was a little thick, but not too thick to write on when laid flat on a desk and the guy said it had a four hour battery life (close to what the average college student would need while in class).
I bought a Newton 2000 for my wife when she was going to college and for one class (classic literature) she was even able to download public domain copies of the textbook material. Imagine if textbook publishers start to make site license deals with universities and put out their material in digital form. I think the appeal of keeping all your notes, books, music, etc on one device would be compelling.
Welcome aboard Matthew. Glad to see the press getting information from all sources Don't be a stranger!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks a lot, JPF. I like these forums very much -- both the mix of topics and the level of participation -- and I'll try to act a little less the lurker in the future.
Say, Apple could release a tablet PC with a 1 GHz G3 processor (maybe a bit lower). It would have a 1024*768 screen. A Firewire and a USB port as well as integrated AirPort. And a stylus.
Great.
Now why would you buy such a thing? It may make a good second computer, but unlike a notebook, it doesn't make a good replacement for a desktop.
Also, the price would probably a bit higher than the iBook's.
Really, I'd rather have an iBook. Forget stylus input. Even if handwriting recognition were perfect (which it isn't), keyboard input is still more convenient and faster. Also, you can better adjust a notebook's viewing angle - and TFTs still have some problems if you don't have the right lighting. As soon as there's sunlight involved, the image fades out.
Tablet PCs will NOT replace notebooks. And they're not _the_ evolution of the PC. Evolution? Yes, it's creating mutants from time to time. And the best ones survive. There's a reason why notebooks are popular.
We won't be talking that much about tablet PCs a year from today.
What if Apple used multiple ARM processors for better multitasking (like the Dragonball, 200 mhz+?) The OS could handle it, and that might keep power requirements lower. Of course that would kill Classic Apps for it. Then use a 12" wide screen for a screen a little closer to a letter size page in portrait orientation, or a 9" might be better for my money. The tablet has to stay down at a tablet size. As thin as possible, shoot for 1/2". A 10-20 GB HD should be all that is needed and 512 MB Ram. No need for a CD, its not ment as a stand alone.
The main problem as I see it though is that it is too large to replace a PDA ( I know the PDA will move into the cell phone, all anyone ever uses them for is contact lists...though I used mine mostly as a checkbook and calendar ), not powerfull enough to replace a laptop. It might work as a "sometimes" extension to a desktop or digital hub if the price were rigt, say less than $999 for the mass market tops.
Here's the version that includes the screenshot gallery:
Writing's on Wall for Mac OS X
God, I feel like a compulsive self-promoter now!
Matthew Rothenberg
Online editor
Ziff Davis Media
[ 11-20-2002: Message edited by: Matthew Rothenberg ]
<<<<<
:eek:
Wow!
Mr. Rothenberg:
Thank you very much for supplying that link.
I enjoyed both of your articles on Newtonesque Apple efforts. I've been working an engineering program for the last 18 months that SO could have used an Apple Tablet.
I've got such questions... and I'm sure that you can't (source protection and what-not) answer any of them. Take care, looking forward to reading a 'review' in 2003
Well, howz about this: Screw inkwell. Apple delivers a laptop/tablet that can take my input on-screen and allow me to work with After Effects/Commotion/Photoshop/Cumbustion ON-SCREEN!! Of course I'm talking about matting/keying/ wire removal and such, but if Apple took over the 'draw on your screen' approach to video (my field), well, HWR be damned.
<strong>Now why would you buy such a thing? It may make a good second computer, but unlike a notebook, it doesn't make a good replacement for a desktop.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who?
My brother.
He's dyslexic and the move-the-mouse-look-at-the-screen and jumble-letter keyboard have never been his friends. After thirty years of brute force effort he can print pretty well though. It may be counter intuitive but direct, written input would be a God-send for him. Also, as a furniture designer he could well use the ability to sketch in ideas and have the software help him clean it up.
My mother.
She's a printmaker turned computer/photoshop based artist. She prefers a mouse to a wacom but would likely drool over direct sketching.
My dad.
He surfs and writes short emails and business letters. As an architect he spent most of his life block printing (he trained my brother). He's become comfortable with a computer over the years but I think it will always be a bit alien to him. A tablet and pen would be much more his style.
Me.
I wouldn't give up a keyboard: 90% of my web development is in BBEdit and that's changing when they pull it out of my cold, dead fingers. Heck of a nice tool for photoshop or "light work" at the c-c-coffee shop though. (it's important to look cool while satisfying one's addiction!)
<strong>I still don't understand what the point of a tablet PC is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Step outside the box.
Let's say you are a salesperson, and you're chatting to a client, he wants something, and you need to fulfill the need... but you're not sure how. So you call up a form on your "tablet" and selct some data from pop-ups, check some boxes...
And you get an answer: "you need an OkeyCokey 2000"
Yes, you could do that with a laptop, and probably you could do it with a Palm too (I've seen waiters use Palms for ordering in restaurants), but if you've a laptop, do you really want to lug a palm too.
Ok, so the above in itself isn't compelling.
Say you're a aeroplane technician, doing groundchecks. Walk around the plane, tick, tick, tick. Oh, what's that? Call up the PDF with the detailed plans of the plane, ok, that's fine. Now check the advisory note that came in from the manufacturer of a part.. tick...
So, is a tablet right for everyone. Probably not. But it seems to be something that can be added to laptops pretty cheaply... that being the case people will make their own reasons for buying or not buying "tablet" enabled laptops and will develop techniques for using these efficiently.
A lot of people asked why you'd want a GUI rather than a command line.
<strong>Walk around the plane, tick, tick, tick. Oh, what's that? Call up the PDF with the detailed plans of the plane, ok, that's fine. Now check the advisory note that came in from the manufacturer of a part.. tick...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think airports have slowed down enough
I think it would be nice to have something for them, but I would think a PocketPC would fit in better here. Weather, no need for handwriting recognition, brittleness (sp?) would do in a tablet in no time.
There are specific areas where a tablet would be nice, but it's a rather small area. The biggest benefactor could be in schools, but we're a few years off for the technology to be useful to a teacher and his/her students.
I'm going to try something unorthodox here (and I hope not too intrusive).
I actually know a lot more about Apple's next pen-computing play than I'm comfortable broadcasting -- at least until I've got more confirmation.
I'm also betting a couple of AppleInsider's visitors have gotten a look at what's on tap.
I would like to extend this offer: If you've got a line on Apple's forthcoming moves in this space, I'd like to compare notes.
Please drop me an e-mail so I can try you out on a bit of what I already know; if we're on the same digital page, I'd be very interested in synching up.
Oh, and I promise to come back here and field some questions once we've got this thing nailed!
Comments
A tablet is very much a place for PPC to shine. Low power counts.
<strong>Tablet spelled backwards = Ballet (well almost). Apple would do better to DANCE all over this lame concept and deliver something no larger than a Newton.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ballet=Telbat? You call that almost? I know you needed it for your punchline but come on...
<strong>
Ballet=Telbat? You call that almost? I know you needed it for your punchline but come on...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, Telbat isn't far from Teyman which is Hebrew for south, so then perhaps they will make these Tablets in Southern Israel!
(allow me to bring everyone up to date)
>>>>>
quote:
Originally posted by Aries 1B:
Matthew Rothenberg's article on Inkwell included screenshots that turned out to be accurate.
Damn my soaring hopes, but this could be the leak!
Aries 1B
Can you post the link to that article?
<<<<<<
I thought that it was gone, but a few seconds with Sherlock, click-click here and there and Voy-la!:
<a href="http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,s2080438,00.html"; target="_blank">http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,s2080438,00.html</a>;
The article was published in 2000.
Aries 1B
Edit: Damn, the article has been changed. The version that I saw had a hyperlink to screen shots. This one doesn't seem to.
Honest!
[ 11-19-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]
[ 11-19-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]</p>
[quote]Originally posted by Aries 1B:
<strong>bgramer:
(allow me to bring everyone up to date)
>>>>>
quote:
Originally posted by Aries 1B:
Matthew Rothenberg's article on Inkwell included screenshots that turned out to be accurate.
Damn my soaring hopes, but this could be the leak!
Aries 1B
Can you post the link to that article?
<<<<<<
I thought that it was gone, but a few seconds with Sherlock, click-click here and there and Voy-la!:
<a href="http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,s2080438,00.html"; target="_blank">http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,s2080438,00.html</a>;
The article was published in 2000.
Aries 1B
Edit: Damn, the article has been changed. The version that I saw had a hyperlink to screen shots. This one doesn't seem to.
Honest!
[ 11-19-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]
[ 11-19-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>
Edit: Damn, the article has been changed. The version that I saw had a hyperlink to screen shots. This one doesn't seem to.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here's the version that includes the screenshot gallery:
<a href="http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-522507.html?legacy=zdnn"; target="_blank">Writing's on Wall for Mac OS X</a>
God, I feel like a compulsive self-promoter now!
Matthew Rothenberg
Online editor
Ziff Davis Media
[ 11-20-2002: Message edited by: Matthew Rothenberg ]</p>
<strong>
Here's the version that includes the screenshot gallery:
<a href="http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-522507.html?legacy=zdnn"; target="_blank">Writing's on Wall for Mac OS X</a>
God, I feel like a compulsive self-promoter now!
Matthew Rothenberg
Online editor
Ziff Davis Media
[ 11-20-2002: Message edited by: Matthew Rothenberg ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Welcome aboard Matthew. Glad to see the press getting information from all sources
<strong>I still don't understand what the point of a tablet PC is.
How many of you can write faster than you can type?
And if word processing and email are by far the largest uses for computers, both of which involve lots of typing, why the hell would anyone want to carry around a pen-based screen with shite handwriting recognition. i've used inkwell and as far as i can tell, it's just as bad as the newton.
With the exception of some scientific applications, students who may want to draw diagrams from class notes, how is a tablet PC a good option for the avergae consumer? Don't answer. It's ok. I just don't get it and likely won't until I see it making life easier...
Well, I'm answering anyway.
If Apple can produce a pad / tablet computer that's noticably thinner, lighter, sexier, and has better battery life than the current crop of Tablet PCs, they might just have a winner on their hands.
The writing vs. typing thing is a red herring. Of course typing is better. That's not the issue. Any workable tablet has to have either a hidable keyboard, or to be able to plug into another computer or keyboard very easily.
They key factor is the ability to mix type with hand-written notes, marks, and drawings.
The key challenge is to do this in a product that isn't expensive, fiddly, overcomplicated, and weird-looking.
Here's what I think a pad / tablet computer has to offer:
- ability to mark-up reports and essays
- ability to mix writing with mathematical and scientific diagrams for taking notes, doing homework
- ability to turn the tablet to portrait view to read electronic books (which I believe will be a big enhanced feature in 10.3)
- ability to draw on screen for graphic artists (very important for this market, and very cool)
Notice how centered most of these are, on education? Microsoft is orienting the Tablet PC toward business and early adopters; Apple will take the concept and orient it toward education (where they need an edge, badly) -- plus graphic artists and consumers.
And I would actually not be surprised if Apple introduces their pad as a wireless, under $1000 complement to an existing computer, instead of replacing a laptop or desktop.
However, if they can come up with a extraordinarily clever design that has a keyboard that can fold away out of sight, and still be thin and competively priced ... more power to 'em.
[ 11-20-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
The recognition for known words was pretty good, comparable to the Newton 2000, but the ease of use wasn't. I kept trying to erase stuff by scribbling over it the way you do on a newton and as far as I could tell there was no application that let you write free form on a tablet AS it recognized your writing. Instead I had to write in a special little box if I wanted it to be recognized.
The thing (I forget what maker) was a little thick, but not too thick to write on when laid flat on a desk and the guy said it had a four hour battery life (close to what the average college student would need while in class).
I bought a Newton 2000 for my wife when she was going to college and for one class (classic literature) she was even able to download public domain copies of the textbook material. Imagine if textbook publishers start to make site license deals with universities and put out their material in digital form. I think the appeal of keeping all your notes, books, music, etc on one device would be compelling.
<strong>
Welcome aboard Matthew. Glad to see the press getting information from all sources
Thanks a lot, JPF. I like these forums very much -- both the mix of topics and the level of participation -- and I'll try to act a little less the lurker in the future.
m.
Great.
Now why would you buy such a thing? It may make a good second computer, but unlike a notebook, it doesn't make a good replacement for a desktop.
Also, the price would probably a bit higher than the iBook's.
Really, I'd rather have an iBook. Forget stylus input. Even if handwriting recognition were perfect (which it isn't), keyboard input is still more convenient and faster. Also, you can better adjust a notebook's viewing angle - and TFTs still have some problems if you don't have the right lighting. As soon as there's sunlight involved, the image fades out.
Tablet PCs will NOT replace notebooks. And they're not _the_ evolution of the PC. Evolution? Yes, it's creating mutants from time to time. And the best ones survive. There's a reason why notebooks are popular.
We won't be talking that much about tablet PCs a year from today.
The main problem as I see it though is that it is too large to replace a PDA ( I know the PDA will move into the cell phone, all anyone ever uses them for is contact lists...though I used mine mostly as a checkbook and calendar ), not powerfull enough to replace a laptop. It might work as a "sometimes" extension to a desktop or digital hub if the price were rigt, say less than $999 for the mass market tops.
Here's the version that includes the screenshot gallery:
Writing's on Wall for Mac OS X
God, I feel like a compulsive self-promoter now!
Matthew Rothenberg
Online editor
Ziff Davis Media
[ 11-20-2002: Message edited by: Matthew Rothenberg ]
<<<<<
:eek:
Wow!
Mr. Rothenberg:
Thank you very much for supplying that link.
I enjoyed both of your articles on Newtonesque Apple efforts. I've been working an engineering program for the last 18 months that SO could have used an Apple Tablet.
I've got such questions... and I'm sure that you can't (source protection and what-not) answer any of them. Take care, looking forward to reading a 'review' in 2003
Aries 1B
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]</p>
A nice cold Shake anyone?
Nice to have you with us.
[ 11-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>Now why would you buy such a thing? It may make a good second computer, but unlike a notebook, it doesn't make a good replacement for a desktop.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who?
My brother.
He's dyslexic and the move-the-mouse-look-at-the-screen and jumble-letter keyboard have never been his friends. After thirty years of brute force effort he can print pretty well though. It may be counter intuitive but direct, written input would be a God-send for him. Also, as a furniture designer he could well use the ability to sketch in ideas and have the software help him clean it up.
My mother.
She's a printmaker turned computer/photoshop based artist. She prefers a mouse to a wacom but would likely drool over direct sketching.
My dad.
He surfs and writes short emails and business letters. As an architect he spent most of his life block printing (he trained my brother). He's become comfortable with a computer over the years but I think it will always be a bit alien to him. A tablet and pen would be much more his style.
Me.
I wouldn't give up a keyboard: 90% of my web development is in BBEdit and that's changing when they pull it out of my cold, dead fingers. Heck of a nice tool for photoshop or "light work" at the c-c-coffee shop though. (it's important to look cool while satisfying one's addiction!)
<strong>I still don't understand what the point of a tablet PC is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Step outside the box.
Let's say you are a salesperson, and you're chatting to a client, he wants something, and you need to fulfill the need... but you're not sure how. So you call up a form on your "tablet" and selct some data from pop-ups, check some boxes...
And you get an answer: "you need an OkeyCokey 2000"
Yes, you could do that with a laptop, and probably you could do it with a Palm too (I've seen waiters use Palms for ordering in restaurants), but if you've a laptop, do you really want to lug a palm too.
Ok, so the above in itself isn't compelling.
Say you're a aeroplane technician, doing groundchecks. Walk around the plane, tick, tick, tick. Oh, what's that? Call up the PDF with the detailed plans of the plane, ok, that's fine. Now check the advisory note that came in from the manufacturer of a part.. tick...
So, is a tablet right for everyone. Probably not. But it seems to be something that can be added to laptops pretty cheaply... that being the case people will make their own reasons for buying or not buying "tablet" enabled laptops and will develop techniques for using these efficiently.
A lot of people asked why you'd want a GUI rather than a command line.
<strong>Walk around the plane, tick, tick, tick. Oh, what's that? Call up the PDF with the detailed plans of the plane, ok, that's fine. Now check the advisory note that came in from the manufacturer of a part.. tick...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think airports have slowed down enough
I think it would be nice to have something for them, but I would think a PocketPC would fit in better here. Weather, no need for handwriting recognition, brittleness (sp?) would do in a tablet in no time.
There are specific areas where a tablet would be nice, but it's a rather small area. The biggest benefactor could be in schools, but we're a few years off for the technology to be useful to a teacher and his/her students.
[ 11-21-2002: Message edited by: Rhumgod ]</p>
I actually know a lot more about Apple's next pen-computing play than I'm comfortable broadcasting -- at least until I've got more confirmation.
I'm also betting a couple of AppleInsider's visitors have gotten a look at what's on tap.
I would like to extend this offer: If you've got a line on Apple's forthcoming moves in this space, I'd like to compare notes.
Please drop me an e-mail so I can try you out on a bit of what I already know; if we're on the same digital page, I'd be very interested in synching up.
Oh, and I promise to come back here and field some questions once we've got this thing nailed!
We now return you to your regular broadcast ...
Matthew Rothenberg
Online editor
Ziff Davis Media
[email protected]
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Matthew Rothenberg ]</p>
HONEY!? GET ME MY HEART PILLS!!! OVER THERE!! NO, OVER THERE!!!
QUICK!!!
<a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/5/24/51222/2909"; target="_blank">http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/5/24/51222/2909</a>;
<a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=545b778a95fe42b7 ,2" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=545b778a95fe42b7 ,2</a>
...and you really gotta talk to Fran441!
Aries 1B