New eMacs on the Horizon?

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  • Reply 101 of 152
    [quote]Originally posted by EmAn:

    <strong>



    I can't wait to see people's excuses about why Apple can't do this when they definately can...</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Definately can? I would like to see the sources of this data first. How do we know they are accurate? For all we know you could have pulled them out of your ass.
  • Reply 102 of 152
    [quote]Originally posted by Stagflation Steve:

    <strong>



    Why would it be strange?



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Because it seems most of you have already bought PCs to replace your Macs and are even typing these posts on them. You all sound like you are in an abusive relationship. Move along. Get on with your lives. Once you go back to PCs posting about how Apple sucks on an Apple messageboard is pointless and makes you look like trolls.
  • Reply 103 of 152
    Actually I have not,



    I do however sell Compaq and HP systems in addition to Macintosh hardware because so many Mac customers are switching to PC's these days, and selling PC's in addition to macs gives me an oppertunity to hold on to my customers
  • Reply 104 of 152
    Edit: See Below



    [ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Stagflation Steve ]</p>
  • Reply 105 of 152
    Because I want anyone who wishes to be able to verify this, with the exception of the G3 processor and nvidia chipset, I am going to use retail prices visible online, obviously Apple would pay much less in the quanities they buy components



    1. IBM PowerPC 750FX Processor



    [quote]

    POWER PC 0292CBGA VARI 85C

    IBM25PPC750FX-DB10-3T

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Buy Quantities

    Min - Mult Pricing Availability

    540 - 540

    1 - 999 @ $96.16

    1000 - 4999 @ $86.54

    No Stock, Contact Your Account Manager To Place Order

    <hr></blockquote>



    2. 256MB of memory, my memory suppliers website is down, so this is the RETAIL price from Crucial



    [quote]

    Module Size Price (ea.) Web Price (ea.)

    256MB $34.99 $31.49

    <hr></blockquote>



    3. 40GB Samsung Hard Drive



    [quote]

    SAMSUNG 40GB 7200RPM ATA100 ............ $ 71.90

    SALES ADVISORY: NOT FOR RESALE IN SOUTH KOREA

    <hr></blockquote>



    I think there is some sort of tax placed on goods manufacured for domestic use in Korea or something, in anyevent dealer cost is around $60 for that drive.



    4. CD-ROM Drive



    [quote]

    52x EIDE CD-ROM



    Manufacturer: Lite-On Part Number: LTN526

    Price 1-48: $ 22.00

    Price 49-96: $ 19.00

    <hr></blockquote>



    Apple frequently uses Lite-On Drives,



    Or if you perfer, CD-RW Drive



    [quote]

    32X/8X/4X Rewritable 2MB EIDE Integrated Cache Blaster 8432



    Manufacturer: Creative Labs (Mitsumi)

    Price: $ 34.00 No Discount

    Part Number: 5000001168

    <hr></blockquote>



    5. GeForce 2mx



    Again, this information is not available to the public, or online, but I was told by an nvidia rep this past October the pricing for the GeForce 2mx 400 chip, is $19 to $27 based on volume obviously.



    On the memory, unfortunetly you can no longer buy the 32mb memory chips, but here is the price on a 64MB 5ns Micron chip ment for use with videocards,



    [quote]

    Micron MT46V2M64LG-5

    Description: 2MX32 SSDRAM DDR PLASTIC TQFP 2.65V 2K REF

    1 - 99 @ $13.6500

    100 - 499 @ $13.1300

    Obsolete part. Not for new designs

    <hr></blockquote>



    Now that leaves us with the motherboard, Apple makes their own boards and corelogic, now it costs about $27 to make a full sized board, and about another $20 for logic, those are generally rules of thumb and no reason why they wouldn't apply to Apple. Unless they have magic ones that cost much less or are making them in Sweden and cost much more.



    Lets factor in a case, because this would be a basic machine, lets say $30 for the case and power supply, and another $25 for keyboard and mouse.



    Apple makes their own opperating system, so it doesn't have to be accounted for as it comes from their overhead.



    So the total price of the components comes to $343.58, and keep in mind that was calulated using largely retail prices, with the exception of the processor, geforce and geforce memory.



    Lets say Apple decides to girl it up a bit and takes the total component price to $450, they still have a competitive system with a healthy margin.
  • Reply 106 of 152
    I don't know about your Motherboard costs. They cannot use off the shelf montherboards the way PC manufacturers can. They are custom made for Apple and in much smaller quantities. This is significant. I'll bet Apple gets hammered on them. The cases Apple uses are higher quality (even on entry-level models) but I'm no Kormac so I can't say what impact on the price this has, only that it's more expensive than your typical cheap plastic case. Are those G3 prices for the 1 Ghz version? Hmmmmm... Apple must also make a profit and don't forget they need to cover costs for hardware design, software (both OS and iApps) and industrial design all of which are of little or no concern to most PC companies. So let's be realistic. Apple could probably drop the current eMac to around $750 and boost memory to 256MB on that model at least though a promotion.
  • Reply 107 of 152
    xypexype Posts: 672member
    [quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:

    <strong>I don't know about your Motherboard costs. They cannot use off the shelf montherboards the way PC manufacturers can. They are custom made for Apple and in much smaller quantities. This is significant. I'll bet Apple gets hammered on them.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    From what I know the PC world has a lot of different mobo manufacturers (ABIT, ASUS, EPOX, ELITEGROUP, MSI, GIGABYTE, ...) each having quite a few different products to offer, with different chipsets (266, 333, 400 DDR, nForce, i854,..) so all in all the quantity of different models shouldn't be much different than the quantity of the Apple mobo (1 for powermacs, one for iMac/eMac I think, not sure). And the Apple mobos don't have the rate of development that for example Athlons of P4 ones have - which went from 133 fsb to supporting ddr400 in a few years.



    Anyway, I don't think Apple mobos are that much expensive. Partly due to G4 not changing much - if not more, Apple has a lot of experience designing those and faces much less problems (=cost) developing them than x86 mobo makers.
  • Reply 108 of 152
    We'll have to take apart some popular Compaq, Gateway and Dell computers and find out. When the original iMac came out there were some rather high-end chips being used on the motherboard. The audio chip used was one of the best integrated audio chips available at the time for example. Don't know if things like that changed over the years though.
  • Reply 109 of 152
    Dell Dimension 2300 vs Apple eMac



    I just priced Dell's $399 Dimension 2300 and it comes out to $798 when equipped the same as the entry-level eMac. I even erred on the side of caution when adding an ethernet card to it and I don't think the Dell even has Firewire as an option either. Most importantly it doesn't run OS X or the iApps. I am curious as to how the integrated Intel graphics of the Dell 2300 compare to the integrated GeForce MX graphics of the eMac. Dell does not go into much detail on this model so I have no idea how much video RAM it has or perhaps it shares main memory. Ugh. Currently the eMac is $1049 after rebate and the Dell 2300 is $798 after rebate. A price difference of $251. Not nearly as bad as I was expecting what with all the pissing and moaning about it. If Apple can get the eMac just a little lower, say $850, then I don't see a problem.
  • Reply 110 of 152
    my 0.02 :

    i live in south africa and as such, am going to use my currency for comparative purposes. I use both platforms.

    PC: R9999.00 box (1.6Ghz, 1G RAM, 32MB GeForce 2MX, WinXP) with a R9000.00 DV500 card and 2 R3000.00 17" monitors. total cost: R26000.00

    Mac: R22000.00 1999 233Mhz G3 (2MB VRAM, 384MB RAM, OS X[10.1.5]) which came with a 17" AppleVision.



    i get more work done on my mac than on my PC cos windows cannot handle a 250MB Photoshop file while opening a Freehand file. .. OS X is sluggish, but workable. i prefer it to 9 cos my workflow is quicker / easier. go figure.
  • Reply 110 of 152
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    While it must have taken time to track down those component costs, the conclusions drawn from them are dubious at best. Material costs are not the only costs of bringing a product to market.



    Market research, R&D, manufacturing negotiations, management time, production labor, testing, quality control, and marketing must all be figured in.



    Are you really this dense stagflation steve? You are now competing with K Hogan of MNN fame! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
  • Reply 112 of 152
    jrcjrc Posts: 804member
    [quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:

    <strong>Dell Dimension 2300 vs Apple eMac



    I just priced Dell's $399 Dimension 2300 and it comes out to $798 when equipped the same as the entry-level eMac. I even erred on the side of caution when adding an ethernet card to it and I don't think the Dell even has Firewire as an option either. Most importantly it doesn't run OS X or the iApps. I am curious as to how the integrated Intel graphics of the Dell 2300 compare to the integrated GeForce MX graphics of the eMac. Dell does not go into much detail on this model so I have no idea how much video RAM it has or perhaps it shares main memory. Ugh. Currently the eMac is $1049 after rebate and the Dell 2300 is $798 after rebate. A price difference of $251. Not nearly as bad as I was expecting what with all the pissing and moaning about it. If Apple can get the eMac just a little lower, say $850, then I don't see a problem.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Just FYI: My new Dell 2300 has firewire. I think it's two port in back and one internal. It, along with video editing software and the like was a $50 add-on at time of order. It so far has worked like a charm. When I plugged in my camcorder a message popped up identifying it as a Sony.



    The graphics are fine for me. I am not a gamer. Surfing is probably three times faster than on my iMac DV 400 with same memory.



    There are also two remaining slots open and one bay.
  • Reply 113 of 152
    xypexype Posts: 672member
    [quote]Originally posted by dfiler:

    <strong>Market research, R&D, manufacturing negotiations, management time, production labor, testing, quality control, and marketing must all be figured in.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    If we are talking about the eMac;



    Market research comes from iMac1/2 customer input, R&D is again from iMac1/2, production labor is likely as much as iMac1, testing a "standard" G4 shouldn't eat up too much resources and I didn't see Apple marketing the eMac as much as the iMac1 or 2. The eMac really isn't much a new technology wonder so I think a price of 899 would certainly be doable.



    As for OSX and the Apps - most people don't realize how nice they are until they actually _use_ it. If the price stops them from even trying or thinking about it then it doesn't help that you like it.



    I for my part tought I can get by with a PC for a bit of freelancing - but it has just been frustrating. So I will get myself a Mac - because of OS X.
  • Reply 114 of 152
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    [quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:

    <strong>



    Because it seems most of you have already bought PCs to replace your Macs and are even typing these posts on them. . .



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I don't believe this. Only one individual mentioned buying a Windows PC for personal use. I believe almost all of us use Macs, prefer Macs and are concerned about Apple's competitive position in the market. We want Apple to do well and prosper. If Apple needs a lower priced model, they should provide it, rather than let markets like K-12 schools slip away from them. The home market is in trouble too. Here is just a snapshot of six who were Mac users 18 months ago.



    1. Professional software developer. Dual GHz G4 user today.



    2. Professional music studio work and composer. Quicksilver G4 user today.



    3. Home user. Four children in grade school. Switched to PC.



    4. Home user. One pre-school child. Switched to PC.



    5. Home user. Grown children. Retired. Switched to PC.



    6. Self. Son in high school. Beige G3 Macs.



    My son would like a newer Mac, but he would hate to give up his flat screen 19 inch monitor for an eMac. The low end PowerMac is just a little spendy for his needs right now. The eMac guts in a box would be fine.
  • Reply 115 of 152
    jrcjrc Posts: 804member
    [quote]Originally posted by snoopy:

    <strong>



    I don't believe this. Only one individual mentioned buying a Windows PC for personal use. I believe almost all of us use Macs, prefer Macs and are concerned about Apple's competitive position in the market. We want Apple to do well and prosper. If Apple needs a lower priced model, they should provide it, rather than let markets like K-12 schools slip away from them. The home market is in trouble too. Here is just a snapshot of six who were Mac users 18 months ago.



    1. Professional software developer. Dual GHz G4 user today.



    2. Professional music studio work and composer. Quicksilver G4 user today.



    3. Home user. Four children in grade school. Switched to PC.



    4. Home user. One pre-school child. Switched to PC.



    5. Home user. Grown children. Retired. Switched to PC.



    6. Self. Son in high school. Beige G3 Macs.



    My son would like a newer Mac, but he would hate to give up his flat screen 19 inch monitor for an eMac. The low end PowerMac is just a little spendy for his needs right now. The eMac guts in a box would be fine.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Again, I just bought one because my heretofor Emulation via VPC for one of MY WIFE'S programs was not cutting it. She has no choice in using the program or not. And, the emulation had been giving her fits. That's the way it is with some of the emulated software. So, my only recourse was to buy the cheapest PC I could find for her. I'm just posting my observations of the PC. I would not have even CONSIDERED buying it had it not been for her business need. But, since I've bought it, it's not the PLAGUE and so I have let my curiousity take over and certainly have run it through some drills. I really like the eMacs, though, personally. I'll probably end up getting one next year to add to my 5 mac stable.
  • Reply 116 of 152
    [quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:

    <strong>

    I don't know about your Motherboard costs. They cannot use off the shelf montherboards the way PC manufacturers can. They are custom made for Apple and in much smaller quantities. This is significant

    ...

    We'll have to take apart some popular Compaq, Gateway and Dell computers and find out. When the original iMac came out there were some rather high-end chips being used on the motherboard. The audio chip used was one of the best integrated audio chips available at the time for example. Don't know if things like that changed over the years though.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    Your kidding right?



    The original iMac used the Crystal CS4212, which is worse than the original SoundBlaster 16 introduced in 1992, only recently has apple introduced a remotely modern audio chip into their designs, and even then it isn't a great deal better than SoundBlaster 16,



    Yes, The G3 is the 1ghz model, the reason Apple is still using the G3 in the iBook is because the new G3 is very fast and DIRT cheap, in the numbers Apple buys them in the price is probably atleast 20% lower.



    Apple makes and designs their own boards, that would work to Apples advantage, Apple makes most of their core-logic, chipsets and motherboards are very high margin products for their manufacturers,



    R&D?, Apple has designed more than 8 differant G3 based motherboards, designing another one, esspecially a very basic one isn't going to require much if any resources. A modified iMac DV motherboard would do the job just fine.



    It doesn't need an expensive case, a white box is just fine, and even then Apple cases probably aren't that expensive to make, the eMac is just white molded plastic, non-translucent resein isn't very expensive.
  • Reply 117 of 152
    [quote]Originally posted by dfiler:

    <strong>While it must have taken time to track down those component costs, the conclusions drawn from them are dubious at best. Material costs are not the only costs of bringing a product to market.



    Market research, R&D, manufacturing negotiations, management time, production labor, testing, quality control, and marketing must all be figured in.



    Are you really this dense stagflation steve? You are now competing with K Hogan of MNN fame! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>



    using those numbers they have more than a $250 margin, they can manage.
  • Reply 118 of 152
    [quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:

    <strong>Dell Dimension 2300 vs Apple eMac



    I just priced Dell's $399 Dimension 2300 and it comes out to $798 when equipped the same as the entry-level eMac. (snip) I am curious as to how the integrated Intel graphics of the Dell 2300 compare to the integrated GeForce MX graphics of the eMac. Dell does not go into much detail on this model so I have no idea how much video RAM it has or perhaps it shares main memory. Ugh. Currently the eMac is $1049 after rebate and the Dell 2300 is $798 after rebate. A price difference of $251.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    1. You forget that the 2300 is going to be atleast twice as fast as the "Celeron G4"



    2. The "Intel Extreme" graphics intergrated into the i845GL chipset are about on par with a TNT2, however will out perform the GeForce 2MX in the Mac because of poor implementation.
  • Reply 119 of 152
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    [quote]Originally posted by JRC:

    <strong>



    . . . So, my only recourse was to buy the cheapest PC I could find for her. I'm just posting my observations of the PC. I would not have even CONSIDERED buying it had it not been for her business need. . .



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I gladly stand corrected. I should have left the word 'almost' out, and said 'all of us use Macs and prefer Macs,' but I wasn't sure.
  • Reply 120 of 152
    xypexype Posts: 672member
    [quote]Originally posted by snoopy:

    <strong>



    I gladly stand corrected. I should have left the word 'almost' out, and said 'all of us use Macs and prefer Macs,' but I wasn't sure.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I gladly correct you again - I am using a PC. I was using a quicksilver until june, but then went freelance and tought a PC might be good enough. While I was using the 733 QS I tought it was a nice machine, but nothing more. Now I have to do real graphics/3D/new media work on the PC. And boy, I learned my lesson.



    Since for bookkeeping January is here the best time to buy "work hardware" when one has a company I am sitting here and hoping Apple will make do a nice bump on the PowerMacs - or maybe go all 17" with the iMacs with 1ghz+ CPUs. But I am so "desperate" that in case there is no speed bump I will look for a used 733/867/933 QS machine.
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