it's very much faster on my g4. Think OS 9 speeds. it's that close. It will change the way you work.
Yahoo! I hope this applies to my Quartz-disabled iBook G3/500 (and Retrograde's iBook ) as well. I really need to sign up as a developer to check out beta OS releases. Of course, by the time Panther ships, I'll hopefully get it with a snazzy new 12-inch PowerBook.
Preview/Quartz are not the same thing. However, it is reasonable to think that some of the optimisations that went into Preview MAY apply to quartz.
The vast majority of the optimizations in Preview are *directly* from optimizations in Quartz.
Quote:
Quartz is a LOT more complex than PDFs. And it's OpenGL-accelerated, which I imagine complicates things.
Close. Quartz Extreme is the Open-GL accelerated Quartz.
Quote:
Preview simply displays 2D pdfs, and lets you scroll up and down. What slows down Quartz noticeably is stuff like resizing windows (ugh).
While true, the point is that the core engine of Quartz that does the basic drawing for the system is the *SAME* engine that does the PDF rendering. (There will be the PDF -> Quartz translation, and it may be that this is where most of the optimizations came in, and the actual rendering engine hasn't been touched, but given that demo with the 976 page document, I *REALLY* doubt it.)
So seeing Preview fly through a PDF leads me to believe that Quartz has been highly optimized... which will help a *LOT* of applications, for free.
What will it take to speed up resizing windows in Quartz Extreme? Apps like iCal and iPhoto are total jokes when it comes to windows resizing ... has Panther made any headway into this?
How come Apple didn't make an issue out of speed improvements then?
Apple probably did not mention anything about speed improvements for Panther because they made a big deal about it with 10.2 (I believe they used the word "dramatic") and it never came to be. Remember all those little graphs on their website describing how much faster you'd be able to things using Quartz Extreme? I think that led everyone to believe that 10.2 would be as snappy and responsive as XP. There was improvement with 10.2 over 10.1.5 for sure, but it was very modest...at least in my experience.
whether Panther is faster than Jaguar is a central issue to every OSX user and especially anyone using OS9. Those on 9 are likely on older machines and they don't want to have their older machine made more unresponsive. it's critically important for Apple to prevent loss of users to Windows in this transition. maximizing the performance of OS X on all hardware is thus in their interest.
The vast majority of the optimizations in Preview are *directly* from optimizations in Quartz.
I'd love to believe that, but can you back that up? I question it because SJ pitched the new Preview as being so much faster than Acrobat. If it was Quartz that was sped up, then 1) why wasn't Acrobat a speed demon too, and 2) why didn't SJ show off other aspects of Quartz as being much faster too?
1) why wasn't Acrobat a speed demon too, and 2) why didn't SJ show off other aspects of Quartz as being much faster too?
1) Adobe uses its own PDF based display lib, in the interest of cross-platform equality and all that.
2) Exposé and Fast-user switching.
On the whole the UI now feels as responsive as OS9. TiBook 1GHZ/1 GB RAM. Preview does flat out f*cking fly. Tried a graphics intensive 197-page PDF that SPODs 10.2 Preview, 10.3 Preview pretty much scrolls continuously with almost no lag as the pages fly past (just like the WWDC keynote).
BR, I can't back it up directly, but am going on a couple of assumptions, combined with the following observations:
1) Acrobat is several MB of executable. Preview (in Jaguar) is 128kB. Preview obviously has to be handing off much of the workload to Quartz... which makes sense, that's what it's *for*. It also makes sense for Adobe to be using their own engine.
2) The PDF rendering is, assumedly, staying in Quartz in Panther, and not being hoisted up to Preview... it's too critical to various parts of the OS to split like that.
3) Therefore the speedups we're seeing in Panther's Preview are actually optimizations in the PDF subsystem of Quartz.
4) These optimizations should help *any* application that uses that PDF subsystem.
5) Since Quartz's rendering model is more or less based on PDF, it would stand to reason that these optimizations are core to Quartz in general, and not *just* the PDF-specific renderer bits.
6) Therefore any app that uses Quartz should benefit.
3. Adobe does have an interest in making their own implementation of PDF rendering, since it is their format. Apple has their own implementation as well, but it probably suits Adobe just as well to have their version available to Mac users in case any differences arise. Besides, using Quartz instead of their own engine would have meant ripping out the guts of Acrobat and retooling it to call Quartz instead. From my point of view, it doesn't seem like Adobe's done much to Acrobat since its OS X debut other than slap some XP-ish toolbar icons on it.
Is this true [OS 9 responsiveness in Panther]? If so then it most certainly will justify the upgrade to Panther.
I'll even put up with the brushed metal Finder for OS 9-like responsiveness (or better) on my current hardware. Noetheless, I would still rather see Apple make brushed metal an Appearance option.
Great discussion about the benefits of Quartz. Looks like I'll swtich my default PDF viewer from Acrobat to Preview when Panther arrives.
I'd never thought I'd say this, but 10.3 has ORGASMIC response times. If you thought Mac OS 9 was fast, wait until you try panther!
Well i'm glad that 10.3 is at least as fast as Mac OS 9,
as that is how it should ahve been...just look at how 'snappy' NEXTSTEP was over a decade ago on 25MHz 68040 hardware...seems faster/snappier than 10.1/10.2 even.
Apart from that, the only ORGASMIC thing i can think of at the moment is being back with my boyfriend in a few days time, after having spent 6 months away half way across the world. (I've not had sex in a long time)...in that respect, the 'ORGASMIC' nature of Mac OS X 10.3 does not come close
finder windows open a bit faster on my tibook (500). But the main thing is that it's more efficient than the old finder, thus it seems even faster than it is. Still, I can zip through os9 windows using the keyboard faster, i wonder if Apple will ever catch up to themselves in this respect...
Mail client is peppy now, threaded subjects are hard to get used to so far. In general the interface feels cleaner. Aqua has grown a bit and it shows. Did they say how much they are going to charge for Panther?
Apart from that, the only ORGASMIC thing i can think of at the moment is being back with my boyfriend in a few days time, after having spent 6 months away half way across the world. (I've not had sex in a long time)...in that respect, the 'ORGASMIC' nature of Mac OS X 10.3 does not come close
There's a rare sight on AI! Someone getting orgasmic over something other than a computer!
This developer version of Panther, screams on this puppy. Typing is faster, the finder (although not great UI wise, my opinion) screams, thread management seems much much better, windows open faster, and the UI is so much more responsive (not to mention better looking, minus the the removal of tabs and the new finder). Expose works very well, and should work great with Quartz Extreme (I don't have that capability).
I feel like I have a new computer. Panther gets close to Mac OS 9 in terms of response times and performance UI wise. For all you Sawtooth users out there...you don't have to upgrade your machine yet...Panther really breathes new life into it.
No beach balls yet. This is a great developer preview and no doubt the finalized version will be even faster.
For those naysayers, althougth I don't like brushed metal in the finder, it isn't that bad and it makes up for itself in speed...a simple "aqua" option should satisfy all of us.
Wonderful job Apple, just keep listening to your users regarding the UI.
Comments
Originally posted by inkhead
it's very much faster on my g4. Think OS 9 speeds. it's that close. It will change the way you work.
Yahoo! I hope this applies to my Quartz-disabled iBook G3/500 (and Retrograde's iBook
Escher
Originally posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R
Preview/Quartz are not the same thing. However, it is reasonable to think that some of the optimisations that went into Preview MAY apply to quartz.
The vast majority of the optimizations in Preview are *directly* from optimizations in Quartz.
Quartz is a LOT more complex than PDFs. And it's OpenGL-accelerated, which I imagine complicates things.
Close. Quartz Extreme is the Open-GL accelerated Quartz.
Preview simply displays 2D pdfs, and lets you scroll up and down. What slows down Quartz noticeably is stuff like resizing windows (ugh).
While true, the point is that the core engine of Quartz that does the basic drawing for the system is the *SAME* engine that does the PDF rendering. (There will be the PDF -> Quartz translation, and it may be that this is where most of the optimizations came in, and the actual rendering engine hasn't been touched, but given that demo with the 976 page document, I *REALLY* doubt it.)
So seeing Preview fly through a PDF leads me to believe that Quartz has been highly optimized... which will help a *LOT* of applications, for free.
What will it take to speed up resizing windows in Quartz Extreme? Apps like iCal and iPhoto are total jokes when it comes to windows resizing ... has Panther made any headway into this?
Kompressor
Originally posted by rmendis
Well, perhaps PDF rendering got sped up.
How come Apple didn't make an issue out of speed improvements then?
Apple probably did not mention anything about speed improvements for Panther because they made a big deal about it with 10.2 (I believe they used the word "dramatic") and it never came to be. Remember all those little graphs on their website describing how much faster you'd be able to things using Quartz Extreme? I think that led everyone to believe that 10.2 would be as snappy and responsive as XP. There was improvement with 10.2 over 10.1.5 for sure, but it was very modest...at least in my experience.
na
Originally posted by Kickaha
The vast majority of the optimizations in Preview are *directly* from optimizations in Quartz.
I'd love to believe that, but can you back that up? I question it because SJ pitched the new Preview as being so much faster than Acrobat. If it was Quartz that was sped up, then 1) why wasn't Acrobat a speed demon too, and 2) why didn't SJ show off other aspects of Quartz as being much faster too?
1) why wasn't Acrobat a speed demon too, and 2) why didn't SJ show off other aspects of Quartz as being much faster too?
1) Adobe uses its own PDF based display lib, in the interest of cross-platform equality and all that.
2) Exposé and Fast-user switching.
On the whole the UI now feels as responsive as OS9. TiBook 1GHZ/1 GB RAM. Preview does flat out f*cking fly. Tried a graphics intensive 197-page PDF that SPODs 10.2 Preview, 10.3 Preview pretty much scrolls continuously with almost no lag as the pages fly past (just like the WWDC keynote).
Originally posted by cowerd
On the whole the UI now feels as responsive as OS9.
Is this true? If so then it most certainly will justify the upgrade to Panther.
Do you reckon that this is across the board or just QE capable machines?
Mine is the 550MHz PowerBook G4 which had the 16MB graphics subsystem - the bare minimum for QE. Will i notice much or any difference?
Originally posted by cowerd
1) Adobe uses its own PDF based display lib, in the interest of cross-platform equality and all that.
Interesting.
2) Exposé and Fast-user switching.
Are those both Quartz Extreme? I want to believe. I just want to see it. I've heard "it's as fast as OS 9" since Cheetah.
This beta has changed the way I work on my computer.
1) Acrobat is several MB of executable. Preview (in Jaguar) is 128kB. Preview obviously has to be handing off much of the workload to Quartz... which makes sense, that's what it's *for*. It also makes sense for Adobe to be using their own engine.
2) The PDF rendering is, assumedly, staying in Quartz in Panther, and not being hoisted up to Preview... it's too critical to various parts of the OS to split like that.
3) Therefore the speedups we're seeing in Panther's Preview are actually optimizations in the PDF subsystem of Quartz.
4) These optimizations should help *any* application that uses that PDF subsystem.
5) Since Quartz's rendering model is more or less based on PDF, it would stand to reason that these optimizations are core to Quartz in general, and not *just* the PDF-specific renderer bits.
6) Therefore any app that uses Quartz should benefit.
QED, ergo yadda yadda yadda.
I'd never thought I'd say this, but 10.3 has ORGASMIC response times. If you thought Mac OS 9 was fast, wait until you try panther!
Yippie!
Barto
1. It looks like s*** compared to Preview.
2. It looks like the same s*** on Windows.
3. Adobe does have an interest in making their own implementation of PDF rendering, since it is their format. Apple has their own implementation as well, but it probably suits Adobe just as well to have their version available to Mac users in case any differences arise. Besides, using Quartz instead of their own engine would have meant ripping out the guts of Acrobat and retooling it to call Quartz instead. From my point of view, it doesn't seem like Adobe's done much to Acrobat since its OS X debut other than slap some XP-ish toolbar icons on it.
Originally posted by rmendis
Is this true [OS 9 responsiveness in Panther]? If so then it most certainly will justify the upgrade to Panther.
I'll even put up with the brushed metal Finder for OS 9-like responsiveness (or better) on my current hardware. Noetheless, I would still rather see Apple make brushed metal an Appearance option.
Great discussion about the benefits of Quartz. Looks like I'll swtich my default PDF viewer from Acrobat to Preview when Panther arrives.
Escher
Originally posted by Barto
I'd never thought I'd say this, but 10.3 has ORGASMIC response times. If you thought Mac OS 9 was fast, wait until you try panther!
Well i'm glad that 10.3 is at least as fast as Mac OS 9,
as that is how it should ahve been...just look at how 'snappy' NEXTSTEP was over a decade ago on 25MHz 68040 hardware...seems faster/snappier than 10.1/10.2 even.
Apart from that, the only ORGASMIC thing i can think of at the moment is being back with my boyfriend in a few days time, after having spent 6 months away half way across the world. (I've not had sex in a long time)...in that respect, the 'ORGASMIC' nature of Mac OS X 10.3 does not come close
Mail client is peppy now, threaded subjects are hard to get used to so far. In general the interface feels cleaner. Aqua has grown a bit and it shows. Did they say how much they are going to charge for Panther?
Originally posted by rmendis
Apart from that, the only ORGASMIC thing i can think of at the moment is being back with my boyfriend in a few days time, after having spent 6 months away half way across the world. (I've not had sex in a long time)...in that respect, the 'ORGASMIC' nature of Mac OS X 10.3 does not come close
There's a rare sight on AI! Someone getting orgasmic over something other than a computer!
Originally posted by thepeopleselbow
Did they say how much they are going to charge for Panther?
They said 129 the norm.
Originally posted by Barto
I'd never thought I'd say this, but 10.3 has ORGASMIC response times. If you thought Mac OS 9 was fast, wait until you try panther!
However, people at macnn forums keep saying that window resizing has not been really improved. Can anyone confirm?
Sawtooth G4 400
256 RAM
10 Gig 7200 Quantum Fireball
16mb Rage 128
This developer version of Panther, screams on this puppy. Typing is faster, the finder (although not great UI wise, my opinion) screams, thread management seems much much better, windows open faster, and the UI is so much more responsive (not to mention better looking, minus the the removal of tabs and the new finder). Expose works very well, and should work great with Quartz Extreme (I don't have that capability).
I feel like I have a new computer. Panther gets close to Mac OS 9 in terms of response times and performance UI wise. For all you Sawtooth users out there...you don't have to upgrade your machine yet...Panther really breathes new life into it.
No beach balls yet. This is a great developer preview and no doubt the finalized version will be even faster.
For those naysayers, althougth I don't like brushed metal in the finder, it isn't that bad and it makes up for itself in speed...a simple "aqua" option should satisfy all of us.
Wonderful job Apple, just keep listening to your users regarding the UI.