Rumors of War

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
You've probably noticed (if you watched the keynote) how the Apple-Microsoft entente seems to have vaporised. There was the ridiculing showing of the Panther vs. the Longhorn (rather stupid when you think about it, but hey, Populismus Muss Sein!). Then there was Jobs saying that he still has a "good relationship with the friends of Microsoft", in such a way that the entire auditorium started gut-laughing. And third, (though to lesser extent) the good ole' smoke-off we've been waiting for since, at least 1999.



It has been said that the 5 year contractual friendship (written up in 1997) has ended, and Apple does show signs of barely being able to withhold a collective shouting of fück you (with subtitle: "we can do it on our own as well") in the direction of Redmond. Safari, Keynote and Mail have been the actual fruits of Jobs' dislike of Microsoft (or am I going too far here?), and there's probably more to come.



What more can we expect, AND, is this dangerous behaviour on the part of Apple? I'm thinking, specifically, of Microsoft dropping Office for Mac if Apple doesn't cease & desist invoking the ire of the slothful ogre. What are your opinions?
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 90
    I think you're right. Although we all would like to see Apple tell Microsoft to take a hike we know that the linchpin right now is Office and ONLY Office. Microsoft makes no other necessary application that Mac users really need.



    Apple needs to slowly build consumer confidence, not the already installed base, but new consumers. They also need to get their own office suite off the ground. I saw a rumor on one of the websites that said Apple is holding back releasing their office suite in wake of Microsoft pulling IE for Mac. It's sort of a smart move on Apple's part b/c they are at a critical stage right now.



    All the product introductions recently have people looking their way. They need a little more press time then they can start to intro their office suite. After that you know Microsoft will pull Office. At that point I would hope someone will file a major lawsuit against Microsoft just for the hell of it. If they do pull Office it will clearly show that Microsoft is continuing their Monopolistic behavior.
  • Reply 2 of 90
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I would just point out that while I think Apple is well along its way to software independence from MS, MS can choke Macs out of networks with its proprietary technology. Thankfully, some of this stuff isn't really proprietary for now (Samba and IPSec), but Exchange is a classic example of how MS leaves Macs just outside the party. Apple has to finish gaining independence from Office, if it can. Then it has to be able to get in the door with these technologies, even if it means breaking in.
  • Reply 3 of 90
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    I find such petulance somewhat immature and off-putting, especially from such a massive company.



    Is there any *need* to be hostile towards MS?
  • Reply 4 of 90
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I think there is some need to be aggressive about the competition, and I think Apple comes off as petty because they're trying to be aggressive but light-hearted. I can see why you would find it petulant the way the two thing mix, though it doesn't bother me as much since I dislike MS such. What puts me off more than that is the sucking-up to Adobe, and even more, Adobe's condesending attitude towards Apple.
  • Reply 5 of 90
    piwozniakpiwozniak Posts: 815member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I find such petulance somewhat immature and off-putting, especially from such a massive company.



    Is there any *need* to be hostile towards MS?




    old scars
  • Reply 6 of 90
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    I started a thread about this in TI that didn't get moved over.
  • Reply 7 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BuonRotto

    Thankfully, some of this stuff isn't really proprietary for now (Samba and IPSec), but Exchange is a classic example of how MS leaves Macs just outside the party.





    The party is over here on the Apple side. Windows users are too busy rebooting their machines and dealing with .dll files to party.
  • Reply 8 of 90
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Right.



    The war was over a long time ago. Apple lost in a big way.



    Why cling to the defeat and keep some idiotic hostility towards MS alive?
  • Reply 9 of 90
    I don't think it's necessarily waving the flags of war at Microsoft as it is more a way of reaffirming that they are the real innovators. I know I'm personally tired of hearing Microsoft squawk that they are doing all this innovation but it's really reguritation of things that were done by other companies first, not just Apple.



    The way I see it is that Apple needs to have a target, an enemy, a Goliath to fight with. Why not Microsoft? They are the best at screwing people and companies over. It's natural.
  • Reply 10 of 90
    rageousrageous Posts: 2,170member
    I think it's good to pick a little fight with M$ because it makes Apple look like they're aiming for something. They have direction, or at least perceived direction, which is good.



    Trodding along with no apparent purpose is what makes people jittery.
  • Reply 11 of 90
    Quote:

    Originally posted by AppleLuva

    I don't think it's necessarily waving the flags of war at Microsoft as it is more a way of reaffirming that they are the real innovators. I know I'm personally tired of hearing Microsoft squawk that they are doing all this innovation but it's really reguritation of things that were done by other companies first, not just Apple.



    The way I see it is that Apple needs to have a target, an enemy, a Goliath to fight with. Why not Microsoft? They are the best at screwing people and companies over. It's natural.




    Well spoken AppleLuva! Apple is in-fact just making it obvious that they are the true innovators, not MS. It is also true that this sort of business practice shows analysts and reporters that Apple has some fiestyness and is not afraid to take shots at the titan of the industry. Apple has a perception that they have to overcome, and by mocking MS a little bit...but still staying remarkably humble, they show a confident auora that demands some respect.
  • Reply 12 of 90
    Co-opetition.



    Has been this way since they signed the contract with Microsoft and I think it will continue afterwords. Whether MS whines about Office Mac sales or not they still make $$$$$ on it. That's why they'll stick with it and Apple users STILL use it, whether they bought it or not .



    Power Point or Keynote? IE or Safari? OE or Mail? Office or Appleworks (or whatever Apple's fiddling with)?



    Seems that choice is the better term than war. Now that Apple has a better "chip" on their shoulder (and 64 bit goodness) the MS geek attacks will dwindle even more...thank God.
  • Reply 13 of 90
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by filmmaker2002

    The party is over here on the Apple side. Windows users are too busy rebooting their machines and dealing with .dll files to party.



    The dll issues are just the fault of bad programmers. If programmers thought out their API's that they ensconced in COM, then this wouldn't be an issue. My company puts out 5,000 COM objects with 16,000 COM interfaces across something like 250 dll's and we don't have dll hell because each new version is FULLY backwards compatible. Bad programming.



    The rebooting issue is something entirely different. Windows likes it far too much.
  • Reply 14 of 90
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Yes, Apple is bein uncordial to MS. No big deal here. What you see before you is not how close friends behave in public in the software industry.



    No, MS is not going to cancel Office, for the same reason why they made IE for the Mac. MS made IE for OS X/9 back during the browser wars because they couldn't let any competition establish itself on the desktop. MS had to keep control. Today, MS won the browser war (actually, the war became less important), but MS faces a REAL challenge in that there are lots of free (or cheap) Office products out there. MS can loose the browser war and not die because the browser war was never directly a war over a primary revenue stream. Office is a primary revenue stream. MS can't let any competitors gain legitimacy on the desktop and this means that it can't loose Apple (the #1 most legitimate alternate OS in the consumer market). MS will continue to develop office for Mac, even if it was to just deny a market to Open Office and others. Of course, the fact that MS makes some real money on Office for Mac also helps quite a bit.



    Personally, if I were Jobs, then I would be keeping a development project running for the worst case what if of MS killing Office for Mac.
  • Reply 15 of 90
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    Pirates of Silicon Valley - linkage -, although not entirely factually accurate (woz comments here) does have a great scene of the airing of the 1984 ad where some staffers recognize the Orwellian Goliath Apple confronts was not IBM, but MS. prophetic perhaps, possibly poetic license for punchier tv production, but ponderable and ultimately plausible.



    Many here remember the early 80's and the leapfrog to GUI that set Macs apart.

    [and before you start, PARC never shipped]



    Gates was suspect by the time "Windows 1.0" was reverse-engineered from pre-production Macs. Full status as Evil Monopolistic Bastard required badges in anti-competitive behaviour, violation of anti-trust, and at least a merit award for bloated code with explosive meltdown timers set on chaos.



    Each side pushes the other to do better. Competition is good.



    --

    OT: Yevgeny, your AIcommunity photo reminds me of Leon Theremin.

    (downloadable virtual instrument here -->
  • Reply 16 of 90
    frawgzfrawgz Posts: 547member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I find such petulance somewhat immature and off-putting, especially from such a massive company.



    Is there any *need* to be hostile towards MS?




    I didn't find it aggressive or petulant at all. Jobs was merely making a lighthearted poke at the competition. Is that really a crime? It's not like he said "Windows sucks!! Apple rules! Die, Microsoft!" Please. You're right, of course. The war is over. But that doesn't mean a revival of competitive spirit has to be interpreted as petulance.
  • Reply 17 of 90
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    AppleLuva:



    Quote:

    I don't think it's necessarily waving the flags of war at Microsoft as it is more a way of reaffirming that they are the real innovators.



    But they aren't. Apple isn't innovating. They take pre-existing ideas and custom-fit them to this neato little platform they have built. That's all.



    And Apple manages to break into the big world with a few successful products (iPod & ... hmm).



    Quote:

    I know I'm personally tired of hearing Microsoft squawk that they are doing all this innovation but it's really reguritation of things that were done by other companies first, not just Apple.



    What's the #1 thing that makes OSX attractive to non-Mac users? Hint: something Apple had nothing to do with making. Unix.



    Everything you read about OSX is "Unix Unix Unix". Guess what, Mac people, Apple didn't invent Unix.



    And where do you hear this squawking MS supposedly does? Do they have big jerk-off conventions like Apple that they hype to the sky where Bill runs rigged benchmarks and bake-offs to make the loyalists spooge?



    I like Apple and these fun shows as much as the next guy but so long as everyone involved understands that it is mostly smoke and mirrors. I dig a laser show but I don't believe that's a ****ing dragon flying above me while Pink Floyd plays over loud-speakers.



    Quote:

    The way I see it is that Apple needs to have a target, an enemy, a Goliath to fight with.



    Why?



    It's not a matter of "Be nice to poor MS" it's a matter of "Shut your goddam mouth and do something original before acting like you're King My Shit Doesn't Stink."



    Steve Jobs actually said something about them making the videoconferencing in iChat a standard in case someone wants to "copy our work" or something, met with chuckles by the developers.



    FOR VIDEOCONFERENCING! We're talking "oooh this was a neato idea in 1995.



    How long has MS been shipping NetMeeting with Windows?



    Sure, NetMeeting isn't great and broadband is going to make videoconferencing better, but what the hell does Apple have to do with that?



    Apple takes technology OTHERS innovate and custom-fit them to their platform and they do it very well. Nothing more.
  • Reply 18 of 90
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    And where do you hear this squawking MS supposedly does? Do they have big jerk-off conventions like Apple that they hype to the sky where Bill runs rigged benchmarks and bake-offs to make the loyalists spooge?




    *cough* dance monkeyboy... or ... Developers^E39 *cough*



    "To create a new standard, it takes something that's not just a

    little bit different, it takes something that's really new and

    really captures people's imagination and the Macintosh, of all

    the machines I've ever seen, is the only one that meets that

    standard." - Bill Gates



    from this video clip (MacWorld March1996



    and Bill doesn't have a very good track record at driving winning demos
  • Reply 19 of 90
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I'm not sure that I agree with the statement that Apple isn't innovating. The definition itself is always quite subjective; many take it to mean that you pull a good idea out of thin air. However, I don't beleive in this pie-in-the-sky definition at all. All great invention and innnovation stands on the shoulders of previous ones. No doubt Apple claims some stuff is innovative when it's simply derivative -- that it doesn't make a big contribution itself. But while the term is overused by Apple (like everyone else, including the other side of this debate naturally), there are many things Apple can rightfully claim to be innovative.



    Anyway, on with the warmongering.
  • Reply 20 of 90
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    curiousburb:



    Quote:

    dance monkeyboy... or ... Developers



    Where was the internet stream of this advertised for weeks ahead of time? What convention center in a major city was rented out for this?



    I don't fault Apple for doing it, I say it's ridiculous to assert that MS works as hard to hype these kinds of self-stroking events.



    Quote:

    <clip Gates quote> MacWorld March1996



    MACWORLD

    He said it at MacWorld, thanks for proving my point.



    ---



    BuonRotto:



    Quote:

    But while the term is overused by Apple (like everyone else, including the other side of this debate naturally), there are many things Apple can rightfully claim to be innovative.



    I think an innovation is something that causes something to happen outside the Mac world. If it changes computing in general it's an innovation.



    The iPod counts because it accelerated portable digital audio a great deal WRT computer integration.



    iTMS will be an innovation if it hits the Windows side with a quality product.



    The original iMac inspired hordes of ugly products an an avalanche of overpraise. Hooray.



    And that's fine. Apple doesn't have to be the Jesus of computing. They are a great company that makes great products. But there is no real superiority over MS, it's just different.
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