We had to have known something more than meets the eye (which is always the case with our government; the CIA is "the tip of the iceberg" in terms of intelligence) for an attack on Iraq to occur. The middle east needed intervention in some form or fashion, and this is just the beginning I have a feeling. Iran will be next, as soon as the Palestinians and Israelis can be kept from destroying each other. Remember that Israel is by no means defenseless; it has its own nukes. I would in no way want to be in the middle of government at such a time as this. Shudder.....Bush and his team should be praised, not scorned.
My God, some people are so tied into their politics it's ridiculous. Take a step back and LOOK for crying out loud. This is headline fodder for CNN, period.
Look at the size, number and scale of the parts they have. They could be a part of many types of machinery. Where the hell is the rest of it? Any of it even?! Disintegrated? Shot by Scud into the nearest Black Hole? Next rose bush over?
Either there were centrifuges and large-scale equipment caches for a nuclear program, or there was none. If there were, there simply HAVE to be more parts than this to be found. If there weren't, then this is Hagi's big find at the local black market swap meet. BFD.
This is not a smoking gun ...it's a waft of smokey odor from something that smells sorta like a smoking gun. Find the gun and I'll be impressed. And I don't mean a finished nuke -- that's not what's needed to prove the N part of NBC.
This is weak at best.
Nice spin but ...
Quote:
U.S. investigators in Iraq have found equipment for a nuclear weapons program and millions of detailed documents relating to chemical and biological weapons, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
there is no indication that this was part of an active nuclear program. there was no way that these three chunks of metal and some papers could constitute an active biological, chemical or nuclear program at the point the war began. this is very very weak. i am sure by next week 98% of the us will believe that Saddam buried these pieces just days before the war...
Experts said the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the United States were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program, and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
Except that...they were buried...for 12 years...in some guy's backyard.
THAT'S interesting.
If Iraq had any intention of restarting the program at some point after the first Gulf War, why were these things still buried? Did Saddam even know they were still in existence?
I'm sure Iraqi landfills will be full of all sorts of ugly things.
1)Documents, from as recent as 2001, containing instructions on what to hide and how to hide them. Also included was: how to deceive UN weapons inspectors looking for nuke, chem or bio weapons programs.
2)Buried parts. Small part, yes, but part critical and difficult to reobtain that were not destroyed as Iraq said. Hmmmm...why did they hide them I wonder? I guess they just forgot them. It couldn't be that they intended to use them in a future weapons program.
3)Castor beans. Well, maybe they were going to use them to make oil...guess that why they labeled them as fertilizer. Oh course they wouldn't use them to make ricin. If we can't blame it on the US, it must not be real.
Now, one can stick one's head in they sand about all of this and say it is meaningless, or one can get a grip on reality. There is only one reason for the parts to have been buried. There is only one reason for the documents to have been buried. There is only one reason for the instructions on deceiving the UN and hiding materials. That reason, simply, is to enable the speedy restarting of banned weapons programs. These finds put Iraq so far into violation it isn't funny, yet some still find them meaningless. No one in the admin or military called it a smoking gun. But only a fool would claim it isn't compelling evidence. Unless one's head was in the sand.
There is only one reason for the parts to have been buried. There is only one reason for the documents to have been buried. There is only one reason for the instructions on deceiving the UN and hiding materials. That reason, simply, is to enable the speedy restarting of banned weapons programs.
Why where they still buried nearly 15 years later, even after 4+ years of supposed prime WMD making years of Saddam?
It's a nuclear component, part of a prohibited nuclear weapons program with a lot of accompanying documents.
It doesn't matter (WRT UN resolutions) if it's a prohibited centrifuge or a half-built warhead. It's a proscribed nuclear program.
Whereas North Korea, that has an actual Nuclear Weapons Reprocessing plant in situ, turns off monitoring cameras, publicly announces an intent, and then flagrantly begins building the real stuff gets... um...
Since 1991, UN inspectors have been combing over Iraq. Documents and testimony from Iraqi defectors in US custody since at least 1995 claim all such prohibited weapons were destroyed. Blix and his teams actually supervised the destruction of some missiles, and the IAEA found NO evidence of Nuclear proliferation.
After the US invaded (on the claim Blix couldn't find his butt with both hands) more than "30 specialist teams with equipment and sensitive intelligence not provided to the UN" searched Iraq, presumably honing in on all the places US Intelligence had on their Top 100 list, but didn't feel like sharing, and then went home because "they had run out of places to look and hadn't found anything" < News Headlines documenting these exact quotes are easily googled. >
Curiously, for a US soooo panicked about the risk of a Dirty Bomb sold to terrorists (another justification for removing Saddam), US troops reportedly made no efforts whatsoever to prevent well documented looting of the Iraqi Nuclear Facility, thereby actually facilitating the potential sale of Dirty Bomb materiel. Not even a token Special Forces squad at the only known potential source of Nuclear material in Iraq. Iraqi civilians with high levels of radiation are now coming forward and admitting 'proximity to looting' at this facility, also expressing wonder at the fact the US that seemed soooo interested in stopping a supposed Nuke program were nowhere to be seen as this obvious facility was ransacked.
hmmmm.... colour me skeptical.
tune in next week for the "discovery" of Plutonium (with wet paint in Arabic over the Hanford logo)
Tony Blair is in serious trouble over the WMD fabrications. If he goes, pressure will rise.
UN sanctions were still in effect and Saddam et al didn't want to risk it? Or maybe there are several copies that were unearthed or maybe a million other reasons that don't give Iraq/Saddam an excuse.
Give up. It's over. Iraq concealed nuclear weapons program materials. Active or not, they had it. There is NO argument here. You might as well concede because you are going to get killed on this one.
Even the CNN story said this wasn't evidence of a nuclear program. You should give up your wishful thinking before you're slaughtered in this one.
Comments
Originally posted by Moogs
My God, some people are so tied into their politics it's ridiculous. Take a step back and LOOK for crying out loud. This is headline fodder for CNN, period.
Look at the size, number and scale of the parts they have. They could be a part of many types of machinery. Where the hell is the rest of it? Any of it even?! Disintegrated? Shot by Scud into the nearest Black Hole? Next rose bush over?
Either there were centrifuges and large-scale equipment caches for a nuclear program, or there was none. If there were, there simply HAVE to be more parts than this to be found. If there weren't, then this is Hagi's big find at the local black market swap meet. BFD.
This is not a smoking gun ...it's a waft of smokey odor from something that smells sorta like a smoking gun. Find the gun and I'll be impressed. And I don't mean a finished nuke -- that's not what's needed to prove the N part of NBC.
This is weak at best.
Nice spin but ...
U.S. investigators in Iraq have found equipment for a nuclear weapons program and millions of detailed documents relating to chemical and biological weapons, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
there will always be an excuse, some justification, some reason why it doesn't matter, doesn't count.
and life goes on.
No Bush for Oil!!!!!
Experts said the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the United States were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program, and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
interesting.....
Originally posted by alcimedes
the documentation hurts, but let's face it, those who insist Iraq was innocent and Bush is evil will not be happy no matter what is found.
there will always be an excuse, some justification, some reason why it doesn't matter, doesn't count.
and life goes on.
No Bush for Oil!!!!!
No no no!
There were no WMDs! Keep on message/mantra! Say it loud, say it proud! Energize the base! Grab the attention! Foam at the mouth!
Then, just before the election, when the WMDs are finally and loudly found....
Landslide! Term 2!
Perfect!
The Democrats are walking into such an ambush....
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Scott
Oh I must have misread 1441?
Yes, you have. Only it must have been in ways you can't comprehend.
Originally posted by alcimedes
interesting.....
Except that...they were buried...for 12 years...in some guy's backyard.
THAT'S interesting.
If Iraq had any intention of restarting the program at some point after the first Gulf War, why were these things still buried? Did Saddam even know they were still in existence?
I'm sure Iraqi landfills will be full of all sorts of ugly things.
1)Documents, from as recent as 2001, containing instructions on what to hide and how to hide them. Also included was: how to deceive UN weapons inspectors looking for nuke, chem or bio weapons programs.
2)Buried parts. Small part, yes, but part critical and difficult to reobtain that were not destroyed as Iraq said. Hmmmm...why did they hide them I wonder? I guess they just forgot them. It couldn't be that they intended to use them in a future weapons program.
3)Castor beans. Well, maybe they were going to use them to make oil...guess that why they labeled them as fertilizer. Oh course they wouldn't use them to make ricin. If we can't blame it on the US, it must not be real.
Now, one can stick one's head in they sand about all of this and say it is meaningless, or one can get a grip on reality. There is only one reason for the parts to have been buried. There is only one reason for the documents to have been buried. There is only one reason for the instructions on deceiving the UN and hiding materials. That reason, simply, is to enable the speedy restarting of banned weapons programs. These finds put Iraq so far into violation it isn't funny, yet some still find them meaningless. No one in the admin or military called it a smoking gun. But only a fool would claim it isn't compelling evidence. Unless one's head was in the sand.
Originally posted by Scott
Bunge you may want to stop spinning before you throw up.
Check the post two above this one I've quoted. Thanks.
Originally posted by Tulkas
There is only one reason for the parts to have been buried. There is only one reason for the documents to have been buried. There is only one reason for the instructions on deceiving the UN and hiding materials. That reason, simply, is to enable the speedy restarting of banned weapons programs.
Why where they still buried nearly 15 years later, even after 4+ years of supposed prime WMD making years of Saddam?
Originally posted by groverat
It's a nuclear component, part of a prohibited nuclear weapons program with a lot of accompanying documents.
It doesn't matter (WRT UN resolutions) if it's a prohibited centrifuge or a half-built warhead. It's a proscribed nuclear program.
Whereas North Korea, that has an actual Nuclear Weapons Reprocessing plant in situ, turns off monitoring cameras, publicly announces an intent, and then flagrantly begins building the real stuff gets... um...
Since 1991, UN inspectors have been combing over Iraq. Documents and testimony from Iraqi defectors in US custody since at least 1995 claim all such prohibited weapons were destroyed. Blix and his teams actually supervised the destruction of some missiles, and the IAEA found NO evidence of Nuclear proliferation.
After the US invaded (on the claim Blix couldn't find his butt with both hands) more than "30 specialist teams with equipment and sensitive intelligence not provided to the UN" searched Iraq, presumably honing in on all the places US Intelligence had on their Top 100 list, but didn't feel like sharing, and then went home because "they had run out of places to look and hadn't found anything" < News Headlines documenting these exact quotes are easily googled. >
Curiously, for a US soooo panicked about the risk of a Dirty Bomb sold to terrorists (another justification for removing Saddam), US troops reportedly made no efforts whatsoever to prevent well documented looting of the Iraqi Nuclear Facility, thereby actually facilitating the potential sale of Dirty Bomb materiel. Not even a token Special Forces squad at the only known potential source of Nuclear material in Iraq. Iraqi civilians with high levels of radiation are now coming forward and admitting 'proximity to looting' at this facility, also expressing wonder at the fact the US that seemed soooo interested in stopping a supposed Nuke program were nowhere to be seen as this obvious facility was ransacked.
hmmmm.... colour me skeptical.
tune in next week for the "discovery" of Plutonium (with wet paint in Arabic over the Hanford logo)
Tony Blair is in serious trouble over the WMD fabrications. If he goes, pressure will rise.
Originally posted by Scott
UN sanctions were still in effect and Saddam et al didn't want to risk it?
You mean...he wasn't an imminent threat!!?!
Originally posted by SDW2001
Give up. It's over. Iraq concealed nuclear weapons program materials. Active or not, they had it. There is NO argument here. You might as well concede because you are going to get killed on this one.
Even the CNN story said this wasn't evidence of a nuclear program. You should give up your wishful thinking before you're slaughtered in this one.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...uge/index.html
Still in check.
Originally posted by groverat
It's a nuclear component, part of a prohibited nuclear weapons program with a lot of accompanying documents.
It doesn't matter (WRT UN resolutions) if it's a prohibited centrifuge or a half-built warhead. It's a proscribed nuclear program.
Read my post to SDW.