If you honestly feel that the 'wealth of evidence' found above justifies the actions of your country in the last two years, and helps you sleep better at night, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Going against UN, world opinion, weapons inspectors' advice, militarily infiltrating a country in a volatile part of the world (on false pretexts like "Ties to Al Quaeda" for effect), ravaging America's relationships with virtually every major nation on this planet, killing thousands, plunging said country into chaos and pillaging, losing American soldiers lives in the process, sending half your military in to try to retain some semblance of order, spending billions of (ever devalueing) American Dollars in a time when your economy is in serious trouble...
...with no end in sight, bar complete economic collapse.
Even a flag waving ****ing idiot can see that's not cool.
Can you imagine how many people the Bush Admin has on the ground, searching desperately for some shred of evidence to back up their claims of what a huge and immediate threat to world security Saddam's Iraq was? And this is all they can offer? Months after the war is over, this is the 'decisive proof' your administration can come up with? Let's file this with the empty "chemical weapons warheads" (empty tin cannisters) the weapons inspectors found peacefully, before the war.
Thank god both your Congress and the British equivalent are investigating the trail of gross exaggerations and lies that Blair and Bush propagated as pretext for military violence.
Man - even the Bush administration isn't saying this is a "smoking gun"....just another in an endless series of reports that they have "found evidence" that later turns out to be either wrong, bogus, or at best not a reasonable justification for war.
In related news:
"The State Department's intelligence division is disputing the Central Intelligence Agency's conclusion that mysterious trailers found in Iraq were for making biological weapons, United States government officials said today."
I suspect that the Bush administration plans on just continuing to say they have evidence, in the hopes that by sheer force of number of claims they will convince the public. It seems to have worked so far - 22% of Americans believe that Iraq actually USED WMD on US troops, and 1/3 believe we have already found WMD in Iraq.
If this is true, then I doubt they would have been forgotten, unless they were buried by someone who was dead, and no one else knew where they were. Were there documents really from 2001?
Those documents he is referring to are not connected to the CNN story. They were reportedly found in an entirely seperate situation.
All I'm saying is, it's just as assinine to look at less than a half dozen small machine parts and say "OMFG, proof of a nuclear weapons program!" as it is to say "It's impossible those were obtained to produce a nuclear weapon."
WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW YET. Not even close to knowing. We don't have enough material or enough data (millions of documents my ass, I want something substantial before I'll take my bow and concur that Bush was right all along). No politician will ever get off that easily if I'm the constituent they're "answering to". Hell, I WANT him to find something good ... I really do ... I just don't think he will.
Can we please find a real friggin cache of something resembling weapons-manufacturing machinery before we buy into all this CNN media SPIN (right Scott?)? All I'm asking is for the hawks to think a bit. Doesn't reflect well on any of you to try and defend the implications of this find so vehemently, when there's little that can definitively be said about the find....
All I'm saying is, it's just as assinine to look at less than a half dozen small machine parts and say "OMFG, proof of a nuclear weapons program!" as it is to say "It's impossible those were obtained to produce a nuclear weapon."
Actually it's not the same at all because a small piece of equipment and some documentation hidden from the inspections process can easily constitute a weapons program and absolutely nothing I have read from the UN reads otherwise.
It's not a matter of subjective "I'm not satisfied because I don't like George". That's neither here nor there.
Iraq had an unauthorized nuclear program. Whatever you read into that is your own problem, not anyone else's.
Hmm, so they had a pre-1991 nuclear program. We knew that. Israel bombed one of them. They dumped this one during the Gulf War. OK.
Now, the program was by definition never re-started. Doesn't that prove the skeptics' point? I mean, that Sodom actually didn't have any WMD, even though he used to have them?
Quote:
Originally posted by Aries 1B
[BThen, just before the election, when the WMDs are finally and loudly found....
Landslide! Term 2!
Perfect!
The Democrats are walking into such an ambush....[/B]
Hmm, that wouldn't be surprising at all. A nice October surprise for the re-election effort?
Actually it's not the same at all because a small piece of equipment and some documentation hidden from the inspections process can easily constitute a weapons program....
This is true, but I frankly don't see a lot of logic in it. That is, logic in how the ruling is constituted. To me, there has to be the capability to make a weapon before there is a "weapons program". Not saying you want to let things slide to the point of that happening, but doing what we did to Iraq was probably justified if there was an actual program. I think all we have so far is a few dinky parts.
IOW, I wonder if they ever came close to an actual "program", nuclear-wise. Of course... this may all be academic, because it's much easier to create and hide a small bio or chemical weapons program than it is a nuclear one. And we certainly have some evidence of those types of programs that is more substantial than the evidence we are describing here. At least, IMO.
Look at the parts. These parts are not going to save billions and decades of research.
ugh, sorta the opposite.
again, in case you missed it the first time through.
Quote:
Experts said the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the United States were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program, and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
sounds like these were key parts, hard to get, hard to replicate. not just random nuts and bolts.
It's mindboggling how some of you folk can give credence to the claims of this administration, after the consistency and blatancy of their lies. I would trust the IAEA over the Bush Adminstration any day. I have about the same degree of trust in Bush (and co) as I have for that other notorious serial liar, Saddam Hussein.
Hold on here people. Are you saying, that, the President, the President of the United States, the most sacred institution in the whole universe, is deceiving us??!?
Hold on here people. Are you saying, that, the President, the President of the United States, the most sacred institution in the whole universe, is deceiving us??!?
Well, the responses here sum it up for hopeless Left.
We found components of a NUCLEAR program. We found documents on how to conceal items from the UN inspectors.
....yet, some here are STILL defending Saddam. It's ridiculous. This is irrefutable proof Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time...and also proof he was decieving the UN. I SAY AGAIN: We have proof he was deceiving the UN...and now we have folks saying that Iraq was disarmed ACCORDING TO the UN?
Sometimes I wonder: If a nuclear missile slammed into Los Angeles and we were somehow able to read "With Love from North Korea" on the side before impact, would the liberals suggest that Bush had it painted on there?
Oh, and BTW: Blix NEVER claimed Iraq was disarmed. Never.
Well, the responses here sum it up for hopeless Left.
We found components of a NUCLEAR program. We found documents on how to conceal items from the UN inspectors.
....yet, some here are STILL defending Saddam. It's ridiculous. This is irrefutable proof Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time...and also proof he was decieving the UN. I SAY AGAIN: We have proof he was deceiving the UN...and now we have folks saying that Iraq was disarmed ACCORDING TO the UN?
Sometimes I wonder: If a nuclear missile slammed into Los Angeles and we were somehow able to read "With Love from North Korea" on the side before impact, would the liberals suggest that Bush had it painted on there?
Oh, and BTW: Blix NEVER claimed Iraq was disarmed. Never.
Who's defending Saddam? And where is the proof that Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time? The internet probably holds as much info as the documents that were found.
Comments
Originally posted by tonton
Doesn't anyone think it's possible these things were simply forgotten?
I think that's very likely.
Going against UN, world opinion, weapons inspectors' advice, militarily infiltrating a country in a volatile part of the world (on false pretexts like "Ties to Al Quaeda" for effect), ravaging America's relationships with virtually every major nation on this planet, killing thousands, plunging said country into chaos and pillaging, losing American soldiers lives in the process, sending half your military in to try to retain some semblance of order, spending billions of (ever devalueing) American Dollars in a time when your economy is in serious trouble...
...with no end in sight, bar complete economic collapse.
Even a flag waving ****ing idiot can see that's not cool.
Can you imagine how many people the Bush Admin has on the ground, searching desperately for some shred of evidence to back up their claims of what a huge and immediate threat to world security Saddam's Iraq was? And this is all they can offer? Months after the war is over, this is the 'decisive proof' your administration can come up with? Let's file this with the empty "chemical weapons warheads" (empty tin cannisters) the weapons inspectors found peacefully, before the war.
Thank god both your Congress and the British equivalent are investigating the trail of gross exaggerations and lies that Blair and Bush propagated as pretext for military violence.
Originally posted by tonton
Doesn't anyone think it's possible these things were simply forgotten?
No. Every nation with just the barebone administrative power doesn´t just lose track of component of their WoMD program.
In related news:
"The State Department's intelligence division is disputing the Central Intelligence Agency's conclusion that mysterious trailers found in Iraq were for making biological weapons, United States government officials said today."
I suspect that the Bush administration plans on just continuing to say they have evidence, in the hopes that by sheer force of number of claims they will convince the public. It seems to have worked so far - 22% of Americans believe that Iraq actually USED WMD on US troops, and 1/3 believe we have already found WMD in Iraq.
Fish
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...nts/index.html
Don't you hawk wannabes ever learn?
Originally posted by tonton
If this is true, then I doubt they would have been forgotten, unless they were buried by someone who was dead, and no one else knew where they were. Were there documents really from 2001?
Those documents he is referring to are not connected to the CNN story. They were reportedly found in an entirely seperate situation.
WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW YET. Not even close to knowing. We don't have enough material or enough data (millions of documents my ass, I want something substantial before I'll take my bow and concur that Bush was right all along). No politician will ever get off that easily if I'm the constituent they're "answering to". Hell, I WANT him to find something good ... I really do ... I just don't think he will.
Can we please find a real friggin cache of something resembling weapons-manufacturing machinery before we buy into all this CNN media SPIN (right Scott?)? All I'm asking is for the hawks to think a bit. Doesn't reflect well on any of you to try and defend the implications of this find so vehemently, when there's little that can definitively be said about the find....
Originally posted by Moogs
All I'm asking is for the hawks to think a bit.
*biting my tongue...*
*biting my tongue...*
wow, the perfect lefty.
All I'm saying is, it's just as assinine to look at less than a half dozen small machine parts and say "OMFG, proof of a nuclear weapons program!" as it is to say "It's impossible those were obtained to produce a nuclear weapon."
Actually it's not the same at all because a small piece of equipment and some documentation hidden from the inspections process can easily constitute a weapons program and absolutely nothing I have read from the UN reads otherwise.
It's not a matter of subjective "I'm not satisfied because I don't like George". That's neither here nor there.
Iraq had an unauthorized nuclear program. Whatever you read into that is your own problem, not anyone else's.
Now, the program was by definition never re-started. Doesn't that prove the skeptics' point? I mean, that Sodom actually didn't have any WMD, even though he used to have them?
Originally posted by Aries 1B
[BThen, just before the election, when the WMDs are finally and loudly found....
Landslide! Term 2!
Perfect!
The Democrats are walking into such an ambush....[/B]
Hmm, that wouldn't be surprising at all. A nice October surprise for the re-election effort?
Originally posted by groverat
Actually it's not the same at all because a small piece of equipment and some documentation hidden from the inspections process can easily constitute a weapons program....
This is true, but I frankly don't see a lot of logic in it. That is, logic in how the ruling is constituted. To me, there has to be the capability to make a weapon before there is a "weapons program". Not saying you want to let things slide to the point of that happening, but doing what we did to Iraq was probably justified if there was an actual program. I think all we have so far is a few dinky parts.
IOW, I wonder if they ever came close to an actual "program", nuclear-wise. Of course... this may all be academic, because it's much easier to create and hide a small bio or chemical weapons program than it is a nuclear one. And we certainly have some evidence of those types of programs that is more substantial than the evidence we are describing here. At least, IMO.
Look at the parts. These parts are not going to save billions and decades of research.
ugh, sorta the opposite.
again, in case you missed it the first time through.
Experts said the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the United States were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program, and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
sounds like these were key parts, hard to get, hard to replicate. not just random nuts and bolts.
It's mindboggling how some of you folk can give credence to the claims of this administration, after the consistency and blatancy of their lies. I would trust the IAEA over the Bush Adminstration any day. I have about the same degree of trust in Bush (and co) as I have for that other notorious serial liar, Saddam Hussein.
Some further articles:
LINK
farce
Trailer trash
more lies
Originally posted by bunge
Hold on here people. Are you saying, that, the President, the President of the United States, the most sacred institution in the whole universe, is deceiving us??!?
What do you think?
We found components of a NUCLEAR program. We found documents on how to conceal items from the UN inspectors.
....yet, some here are STILL defending Saddam. It's ridiculous. This is irrefutable proof Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time...and also proof he was decieving the UN. I SAY AGAIN: We have proof he was deceiving the UN...and now we have folks saying that Iraq was disarmed ACCORDING TO the UN?
Sometimes I wonder: If a nuclear missile slammed into Los Angeles and we were somehow able to read "With Love from North Korea" on the side before impact, would the liberals suggest that Bush had it painted on there?
Oh, and BTW: Blix NEVER claimed Iraq was disarmed. Never.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Well, the responses here sum it up for hopeless Left.
We found components of a NUCLEAR program. We found documents on how to conceal items from the UN inspectors.
....yet, some here are STILL defending Saddam. It's ridiculous. This is irrefutable proof Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time...and also proof he was decieving the UN. I SAY AGAIN: We have proof he was deceiving the UN...and now we have folks saying that Iraq was disarmed ACCORDING TO the UN?
Sometimes I wonder: If a nuclear missile slammed into Los Angeles and we were somehow able to read "With Love from North Korea" on the side before impact, would the liberals suggest that Bush had it painted on there?
Oh, and BTW: Blix NEVER claimed Iraq was disarmed. Never.
Who's defending Saddam? And where is the proof that Saddam was able to restart his nuclear program at any time? The internet probably holds as much info as the documents that were found.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
This thread is hilarious. People can't even agree on what to argue or disagree on!
But we can all agree I'm a beautiful unicorn!
Originally posted by Akumulator
But we can all agree I'm a beautiful unicorn!
I disagree. Mediocre, yes. Beautiful, no way.