Okay, pscates, I know I'm cute. And my post there wasn't really relevant to the matter at hand. My real beef would be that you take on a holier-than-thou stance that I find unjust.
Personally, I'd make the comparison to Hitler's death. I wonder if people found (and find) it morally wrong to feel happy because the man's deceased. Fact is, Hitler did many horrible things, and the world arguably became a better place due to/after his death. And the same mechanism, I reckon, works in the case of this Storm person, albeit less pronounced. I don't think it's a bad thing to rejoice over someone's death. And this does not collide with my stance that killing is not a good or even acceptable thing.
Fact is, Hitler did many horrible things, and the world arguably became a better place due to/after his death.
Though, in general, I agree with your views, I wonder whether it was his death that made the world a better place, or even his own public's understanding of his (and his views') irrelevancy. (I am refering, of course, to those who weren't already threatened an/or aware of his lunacy).
Likewise, some of Hitler's cronies lived many years after the end of WWII. Did you often hear of them? Did the fact that they were still alive allow them to go on doing any harm? Not really. Civilization has a way of passing by the anomalies that will, from time to time spring up in the course of history.
Jesus, whoever he was, said love your enemy. Racism is a socialized construct. You can't blame him for what he was taught by his parents since his birth.
If you read through the thread, I think you'll see my statement wasn't some far-out, schoolkid claim. I walked into a thread where several people were being quite tacky and graceless. I said so.
Homework and the dog don't have anything to do with it.
...and my post there wasn't really relevant to the matter at hand.
Thanks for copping to it.
Quote:
My real beef would be that you take on a holier-than-thou stance that I find unjust.
That's funny. My "real beef" is quite an ugly, malicious streak I've discovered in a few of my fellow AI'ers, regarding someone dying. Ouch. Expressing dismay at such mean and callous displays of joy doesn't make me "holier than thou". Makes me pretty damn normal, I'd think.
Quote:
I don't think it's a bad thing to rejoice over someone's death.
Ugh...pretty morbid, if you ask me.
It's just odd. Take my most despised, rant-causing arch enemy, Jesse Jackson, for instance. If the man dropped dead tomorrow, it would never even OCCUR to me - as much as he repulses me and seems to stand against everything I believe in (echoing a few people above) - to come here and treat it like a good thing, or find it as a cause to celebrate and say mean things.
That's just weird to me. Not to mention, kinda tacky. I was taken aback to see it done by some here, that's all. Yeah, the old guy is certainly an easy target, no doubt. But hold on to that "holier than thou" tag a bit longer, and apply it those who - while celebrating and joyous today - will be the first ones to speak of "venomous, hateful speech" and "disrespect for the dead" if someone makes a tacky, unfortunate comment about the death of someone they look up to or admire (NOT that I look up to or admire Thurmond...I'm barely even aware of him, other than knowing a bit about his past and knowing he was quite an old man).
It could've been Tom Hanks, Lance Armstrong or Gloria Steinem that could've died and I'd still be just as bugged by the notion of people happy and celebrating the fact.
Remove Thurmond from the equation for a moment...it's not about him. It's about some of YOU.
\
In ANY case, it's nice to see the tolerance and compassion displayed by those who - at other times - like to imagine their side has the market cornered on those two particular traits.
When Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Byrd or other prominent Dem dies, I'll be keeping a close eye on the proceedings around here, to see who displays the most glaring example of hypocrisy and "two-faced-itis". And it ain't gonna be me...
Okay, fair enough. My example however might have given you more of the idea I'm going for here: the difference between Tom Hanks and Storm Thurmond, or, to put it in stronger terms, between Tom Hanks and Adolf Hitler, would be that Tom Hanks never actively made this world a living hell for many people (that is, unless you hated Forrest Gump). You understand? I would never feel good about some mere adversary of mine dying on me. However, if the person turns out to have been active in extending the second class citizenship (and all that that carries with it) of many people, hmmm. In extensio, it would be the same thing if a serial murderer dies: tough luck maybe for the guy, but the world IS a better place (which, again, does not contain a justification of the death penalty, at least not on my part).
You're probably right though, to a certain extent, but I'm wondering why. Is it the sheer volume of morals we get pumped into our heads from babiness onwards? Why is it so bad to demean the dead? Why is it *not done* to tell this Storm person for the mean bastard he was, only hours after he passed on to nothingness (or to Hell, if you're christian)?
If you read through the thread, I think you'll see my statement wasn't some far-out, schoolkid claim. I walked into a thread where several people were being quite tacky and graceless. I said so.
Homework and the dog don't have anything to do with it.
Temper, now.
No, you don't know me, like I don't know you. This said, I don't think I ought to know someone for "I didn't start it" to sound childish.
Anyway, my comment was only a passing one on form, not on the essence of your words.
I wasn't too nuts about the man, but those of you practically dancing a jig at the news of his death would be the FIRST ones to rise up in anger and overwrought, righteous indignation if someone made callous, tacky comments at the death of Teddy Kennedy or Robert Byrd.
The 'rat is right: idiots. Double-standard draped ones, at that.
Glad I'm hanging out in General Discussion and Future/Current Hardware more these days. Air is a lot cleaner over there.
I don't think anyone in here mentioned Byrd did they? I have only scanned the responses to here but I think the point people are making is, this guy shouldn't be mourned by anyone *but* his family. He was a symbol of much that was wrong with this country (and our system of government to some degree -- at least where term limits are concerned). Furthermore, it's not like he died an untimely death. He died of old, old age basically. Sometimes this is more blessing than curse depending on how you look at it.
Hell, I'm not sure I want to live to be his age, let's put it that way. I just don't see anything paticularly "sad" about this moment. Maybe if he was a guy who died at 60 and who had shown signs of mending his ways, etc... I wouldn't be such a calous bastard but really I don't even feel that calous on this score to be honest.
I won't feel that way when Helms goes either. As for Byrd and the others, they are immaterial, at least to the point I was not so subtly trying to make.
Fellowship: in principle you are right, except that you too are not considering this man's age.
Comments
Originally posted by der Kopf
I sure see your point. You wouldn't believe the kind of name-calling some fellers indulge in. Take this for example:
Air would be a lot cleaner with less of that, I agree completely.
Cute.
I call 'em like I see 'em. Sorry. I didn't start it.
Sorry. I didn't start it.
And the dog ate your homework, right?
Personally, I'd make the comparison to Hitler's death. I wonder if people found (and find) it morally wrong to feel happy because the man's deceased. Fact is, Hitler did many horrible things, and the world arguably became a better place due to/after his death. And the same mechanism, I reckon, works in the case of this Storm person, albeit less pronounced. I don't think it's a bad thing to rejoice over someone's death. And this does not collide with my stance that killing is not a good or even acceptable thing.
Fact is, Hitler did many horrible things, and the world arguably became a better place due to/after his death.
Though, in general, I agree with your views, I wonder whether it was his death that made the world a better place, or even his own public's understanding of his (and his views') irrelevancy. (I am refering, of course, to those who weren't already threatened an/or aware of his lunacy).
Likewise, some of Hitler's cronies lived many years after the end of WWII. Did you often hear of them? Did the fact that they were still alive allow them to go on doing any harm? Not really. Civilization has a way of passing by the anomalies that will, from time to time spring up in the course of history.
Goodbye Strom.
Originally posted by nixi
And the dog ate your homework, right?
Do I know you? No.
If you read through the thread, I think you'll see my statement wasn't some far-out, schoolkid claim. I walked into a thread where several people were being quite tacky and graceless. I said so.
Homework and the dog don't have anything to do with it.
Originally posted by der Kopf
...and my post there wasn't really relevant to the matter at hand.
Thanks for copping to it.
My real beef would be that you take on a holier-than-thou stance that I find unjust.
That's funny. My "real beef" is quite an ugly, malicious streak I've discovered in a few of my fellow AI'ers, regarding someone dying. Ouch. Expressing dismay at such mean and callous displays of joy doesn't make me "holier than thou". Makes me pretty damn normal, I'd think.
I don't think it's a bad thing to rejoice over someone's death.
Ugh...pretty morbid, if you ask me.
It's just odd. Take my most despised, rant-causing arch enemy, Jesse Jackson, for instance. If the man dropped dead tomorrow, it would never even OCCUR to me - as much as he repulses me and seems to stand against everything I believe in (echoing a few people above) - to come here and treat it like a good thing, or find it as a cause to celebrate and say mean things.
That's just weird to me. Not to mention, kinda tacky. I was taken aback to see it done by some here, that's all. Yeah, the old guy is certainly an easy target, no doubt. But hold on to that "holier than thou" tag a bit longer, and apply it those who - while celebrating and joyous today - will be the first ones to speak of "venomous, hateful speech" and "disrespect for the dead" if someone makes a tacky, unfortunate comment about the death of someone they look up to or admire (NOT that I look up to or admire Thurmond...I'm barely even aware of him, other than knowing a bit about his past and knowing he was quite an old man).
It could've been Tom Hanks, Lance Armstrong or Gloria Steinem that could've died and I'd still be just as bugged by the notion of people happy and celebrating the fact.
Remove Thurmond from the equation for a moment...it's not about him. It's about some of YOU.
In ANY case, it's nice to see the tolerance and compassion displayed by those who - at other times - like to imagine their side has the market cornered on those two particular traits.
When Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Byrd or other prominent Dem dies, I'll be keeping a close eye on the proceedings around here, to see who displays the most glaring example of hypocrisy and "two-faced-itis". And it ain't gonna be me...
You're probably right though, to a certain extent, but I'm wondering why. Is it the sheer volume of morals we get pumped into our heads from babiness onwards? Why is it so bad to demean the dead? Why is it *not done* to tell this Storm person for the mean bastard he was, only hours after he passed on to nothingness (or to Hell, if you're christian)?
Do I know you? No.
If you read through the thread, I think you'll see my statement wasn't some far-out, schoolkid claim. I walked into a thread where several people were being quite tacky and graceless. I said so.
Homework and the dog don't have anything to do with it.
Temper, now.
No, you don't know me, like I don't know you. This said, I don't think I ought to know someone for "I didn't start it" to sound childish.
Anyway, my comment was only a passing one on form, not on the essence of your words.
Originally posted by pscates
Low-rent, graceless cretins here.
I wasn't too nuts about the man, but those of you practically dancing a jig at the news of his death would be the FIRST ones to rise up in anger and overwrought, righteous indignation if someone made callous, tacky comments at the death of Teddy Kennedy or Robert Byrd.
The 'rat is right: idiots. Double-standard draped ones, at that.
Glad I'm hanging out in General Discussion and Future/Current Hardware more these days. Air is a lot cleaner over there.
I don't think anyone in here mentioned Byrd did they? I have only scanned the responses to here but I think the point people are making is, this guy shouldn't be mourned by anyone *but* his family. He was a symbol of much that was wrong with this country (and our system of government to some degree -- at least where term limits are concerned). Furthermore, it's not like he died an untimely death. He died of old, old age basically. Sometimes this is more blessing than curse depending on how you look at it.
Hell, I'm not sure I want to live to be his age, let's put it that way. I just don't see anything paticularly "sad" about this moment. Maybe if he was a guy who died at 60 and who had shown signs of mending his ways, etc... I wouldn't be such a calous bastard but really I don't even feel that calous on this score to be honest.
I won't feel that way when Helms goes either. As for Byrd and the others, they are immaterial, at least to the point I was not so subtly trying to make.
Fellowship: in principle you are right, except that you too are not considering this man's age.