This is the sub-notebook Apple should have made.

1246

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 109
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    The new 12" PB looks small rugged and more powerful than my 700 iBook. I want one badly. DAMN YOU APPLE!



    Ah well, I'll wait a bit. My iBook still runs all the software I need just as fast as I need it. After all, it is all about the software...
  • Reply 62 of 109
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    [quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:

    <strong>It is smaller than the DUO was, did you consider that a subnote?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I don't think the category of a subnotebook had been defined when the Duo first appeared. Compared to the Mac portable the Duo, and the PowerBook 100, were "sub" in size and weight. So, sure, I would concede that the Duo was a subnotebook in its time. But this is 2003. In 2003, neither the Duo(s) nor the 12" PowerBook G4 can legitimately qualify as subnotebooks (i.e. in relation to other current notebooks).



    [quote]Originally posted by Amorph:

    <strong>I have to agree that in theory an ultralight notebook is wonderful. The trick is getting there without paring it down so far that it's not a general-purpose computer.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Amorph: Your statement epitomizes the reason why the subnotebook discussions on AI keep troubling me. An ultralight subnotebook is not meant to be a general-purpose computer (what Steve-O called "fully featured" yesterday). A subnotebook is meant to supplement a desktop computer, not replace it. A subnotebook is not general-purpose. A subnotebook is "sub" for the specific purpose of portability.



    [quote]Originally posted by MacGregor:

    <strong>[A small PowerBook without optical drive] can be made for less money than the 12"PowerBook and at under 3 pounds. Apple just has to build it.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I would like to think so, MacGregor.



    [quote]<strong>However as Escher eloquently sig's, until that happens, the AlPowerbook would be a great substitute.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Thanks for the compliment. :o While we're talking about my sig, I'd like to discuss its first part, which is a quote from an anymous post on O'Grady's PowerPage from ages ago. To me, the key question to determine the portability-value of a subnotebook is this: Will you have it with you? If it's so big and heavy that you'll leave it at home, it will be of no good to you on the road. I carry my iBook along to many places. But I'd like to be able to bring it along to even more places. That's why I want a subnotebook, not just "the lightest fully featured notebook ever".



    [quote]Originally posted by MacGregor:

    <strong>Well, I went to the Sony site and I couldn't find any subnotebooks at all <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Try the Sony VAIO<a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=gFZsi22jmztsi1O_GSVmgCKttCGeu0VK8eY=?Cat alogCategoryID=u3UKC0%2eNf5kAAADyUwtES5hL&ProductI D=fRwKC0%2eN8agAAADypopES5hN&Dept=cpu" target="_blank">SRX99</a> (2.76 lbs). However, they do seem to have removed the C1 Picturebook from the SonyStyle website.



    Escher
  • Reply 63 of 109
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Escher:

    <strong>

    Amorph: Your statement epitomizes the reason why the subnotebook discussions on AI keep troubling me. An ultralight subnotebook is not meant to be a general-purpose computer (what Steve-O called "fully featured" yesterday). A subnotebook is meant to supplement a desktop computer, not replace it. A subnotebook is not general-purpose. A subnotebook is "sub" for the specific purpose of portability.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I realize that, which is why I tried to point out the real problem here: Nothing that is not full-featured will get past Steve, so the challenge is to find a way around.



    He has inveighed against small keyboards. He has mocked the "Internet, Jr." experience, and the OS he's betting the platform on wants 1024x768 at the minimum. If you had a small widescreen, the menu and the Dock would leave you precious little room to view anything. You can reposition the Dock, but shipping hardware that had to be reconfigured by the end user to be useful is completely un-Apple. As far as the sub- in subnotebook, Apple has not, to my knowledge, ever shipped a machine that didn't come with a built-in way to boot off a disc of some description. Unfortunately, right now, that's probably the biggest and heaviest single component in the guts of the machine.



    [ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
  • Reply 64 of 109
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Cheer up Escher, I think you'll get a picturebook format mac eventually. It's display will hinge around to become a tablet, it'll be slow and expensive, but small.



    What you seem to be ignoring is the question of whether it'll be so significantly smaller to warrant the cramped screen, price and slow speed? Will it fit into places the little Al doesn't? Probably not.



    Nothing shown in these pages will do that unless you have some very big pockets on those cargo pants. That's why I think the 12 Ti is just about subnote enough. You could make it a bit thinner in time and lighter, but the footprint is just about at the limit where any further shrinking will require comprimises.



    Now hold a 3 pound weight in your hands and a 4.5. Do you really feel that difference? Of course you don't.



    I'm afraid what you're looking for is really a PDA with a cut down keyboard, otherwise you would see the wisdom of Apple's design choices.
  • Reply 65 of 109
    eldioseldios Posts: 55member
    Hey icruise, do you know if the internal wireless modems on the FMV Loox will work outside of Japan?



    QUOTE]Originally posted by icruise:

    <strong>



    This is my subnotebook, and although I don't like Windows and I would love to have a Mac if there was one anywhere near this size and weight, there just isn't one.



    You can make all the cracks you want about it, but it is small enough to bring with me wherever I go (without even noticing the weight). I can touch-type on the keyboard and it gets reasonable battery life (not great, but ok). It's about half the weight of the ibook. If Apple were to make a subnotebook I wouldn't really suggest they go this far -- I think if they made a modified ibook with no internal disk drive, a lighter casing and perhaps a smaller screen they could shave a lot of weight off of it.



    For those of you who say that you don't see the point of a subnotebook -- fine. But why do you insist that anyone who wants one is a fool?</strong>[/QUOTE]
  • Reply 66 of 109
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    [quote]Originally posted by Amorph:

    <strong>I realize that, which is why I tried to point out the real problem here: Nothing that is not full-featured will get past Steve, so the challenge is to find a way around.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Now I get your point, Amorph, and agree. That's why I settled for my current iBook and will likely settle for an updated 12" PowerBook G4 next.



    [quote]<strong>As far as the sub- in subnotebook, Apple has not, to my knowledge, ever shipped a machine that didn't come with a built-in way to boot off a disc of some description.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Apple actually did ship not one but two PowerBooks that did not have an internal way to boot off something other than the HDD. Both the <a href="http://www.apple-history.com/100.html"; target="_blank">PowerBook 100</a> and my beloved <a href="http://www.apple-history.com/2400.html"; target="_blank">PowerBook 2400c</a> required an external floppy drive for non-HDD booting.



    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>Cheer up Escher, I think you'll get a picturebook format mac eventually. It's display will hinge around to become a tablet, it'll be slow and expensive, but small.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I believed kormac76 when he predicted an Apple subnotebook. So there's no reason to believe you any less, Matsu.



    [quote]<strong>What you seem to be ignoring is the question of whether it'll be so significantly smaller to warrant the cramped screen, price and slow speed?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    That's a point on which my opinion has changed over the years. When I was using my 2400c, I didn't mind the 800x600 10.4" screen and the smaller keyboard. After 18 months with the iBook's 1024x768 12" screen and full-size keyboard, I no longer think I could go back much. I would, however, gladly give up the optical drive to save some weight. At this point, I'm much more concerned with weight than size.



    [quote]<strong>I'm afraid what you're looking for is really a PDA with a cut down keyboard, otherwise you would see the wisdom of Apple's design choices.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Definitely not. I have a Palm PDA and the portable folding keyboard and never use them. I agree with Jobs here. "Internet Jr." is not acceptable. Loose some weight and the internal optical drive and I'll shut up.



    Escher



    [ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
  • Reply 67 of 109
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    I think I noted that the wide (picturebook/loox) format is about the only subnote form factor that doesn't make untowards keyboard comprimises. No need to apologize there, but as you not it still brings other sacrifices. The smaller form factor doesn't allow for the battery sizes one might need for extended work away from A/C. Also, the screen is comprimised in the wide format. Squintier, and you'll do more scrolling. As displays shrink, taller aspect ratios are a bit better than wider as they maximize screen area. For BIG displays, wider is better, but on a computer most of the documents you deal with scroll up down, not side-to-side.
  • Reply 68 of 109
    The 12 iBook being larger than the 12 Alubook seems temporary. i'd bet the next revision of the iBook will bring it into the subnotebook category. 10" widescreen?
  • Reply 69 of 109
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Ooo. Here's an idea.



    Have versions of the Apple CDs that ship on the little 3" discs, and include a mini-CD drive in the laptop.



    Then, of course, anyone who wants a full-sized CD drive can plug one in. But the critical ability to stick in a boot disk no matter what remains.



  • Reply 70 of 109
    macgregormacgregor Posts: 1,434member
    Wow, in the post-keynote glow, Matsu, you didn't put a legion of smilies all over kormac's name when Escher gave you the opening.



    I actually think that this new 12" ThighBook may become one of the best computer designs ever made. And I think the subnotebook discussion may have reached some really useful concensus ... at least for me and my expectations. But I would also still love to see Apple try for a the sub form since it is so close anyway.



    I think if you took the 12" Fly-Book and reduced it to just the size of the keyboard; then reduced the keyboard itself by 85% and made the screen the same size, you would get a functional 9" screen at a high enough resolution that would hit at a market that the picturebook and eMate hit but then couldn't keep. It wouldn't be the biggest market, but I would think it would be sustainable. And it would eliminate another perceived problem with switching to a Mac ... the lack of choice.



    And Jaguar with it's versatility (magnification, dock options) and simple design would be practical for the (at most) 5 files and two apps you would ever have open at one time. If you need more than that you obviously have the option of two incredible 12-inch designs.



    It would, unlike laptops, fit in a coat pocket (and at least where I live that is practical for 9 months a year) and could be taken hiking, etc. in the way that Escher mentions for portablility.



    For me, Escher, that is the only problem with the Sony VAIOSRX99 (2.76 lbs). Size is as important to me in a subnotebook as weight. It's funny that the Sony site doesn't even call it a subnotebook.



    That being said, I'm still awefully happy about Apples return to portable greatness!!!



    :cool: :cool: :cool:
  • Reply 71 of 109
    bartobarto Posts: 2,246member




    This is the sub notebook Apple should have made. Oh wait, they just did.
  • Reply 72 of 109
    producerproducer Posts: 283member
    I don't understand any of you guys who aren't as happy as sperm in Pam Anderson's vagina...this laptop not only is what you have been ask from apple for years and years but is betta!...it's a fully function laptop with a g4 and optional superdrive...when SJ first anounced it ... I was like finally esher has his laptop...hell im tempted but im more thinking about the 17 inch fatty but I want to see how it looks in person first...
  • Reply 73 of 109
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Yeah, you'd be real hapy to have hepatitis. Kormac, argh...
  • Reply 74 of 109
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    [quote]Originally posted by Producer:

    <strong>I don't understand any of you guys who aren't as happy as sperm in Pam Anderson's vagina...</strong><hr></blockquote>



    When thinking of Pamela Anderson, vagina is not exactly the first thing that comes to (my) mind. Besides the Hepatitis, it might be stinky in there. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />



    Again, as I've stated above, the 12" PowerBook is an absolutely fantastic notebook. It's got me excited about Apple's prospects again. I'm very likely to get one by the next revision if I don't succumb earlier. But...



    [quote]<strong>this laptop not only is what you have been ask from apple for years and years but is betta!</strong><hr></blockquote>



    For the record, once again, I've been asking for a subnotebook without an internal optical drive. Telling me it's better because of the SuperDrive is like telling me that milk and sugar in my coffee are sweet when I ordered my coffee plain black.



    Escher



    [ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
  • Reply 75 of 109
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    [quote]Originally posted by MacGregor:

    <strong>I think if you took the 12" Fly-Book and reduced it to just the size of the keyboard; then reduced the keyboard itself by 85% and made the screen the same size, you would get a functional 9" screen at a high enough resolution that would hit at a market that the picturebook and eMate hit but then couldn't keep.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    To me, a keyboard-sized PowerBook sounds like a great idea. In practice, however, I would want to try one before buying. The PowerBook's built-in and very egonomic palmrests are one reason why I think I have yet to suffer from RSI. I'm not sure I could deal with the lack of a palmrest for extended on-the-road use. If I had a nice PowerMac at home, I'm sure I would love the keyboard form factor. But as long as my 'Book remains my primary system, I'll be reliant on that 12" screen, full-size keyboard and ergonomic palmrest.



    [quote]<strong>And Jaguar with it's versatility (magnification, dock options) and simple design would be practical for the (at most) 5 files and two apps you would ever have open at one time.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    That is something that has been often overlooked. You can obviously hide the Dock. More importantly, it's about time that Apple allow for scaling of the OS interface elements, i.e. the menu bar. With scaling of the interface, we could e.g. have 10" 1024x768 screens without getting a tiny menu bar. But those with good eyesight could get better use our of the surface area of the screen.





    [quote]<strong>It would, unlike laptops, fit in a coat pocket (and at least where I live that is practical for 9 months a year) and could be taken hiking, etc. in the way that Escher mentions for portablility.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    So you live in Alaska, MacGregor? To me, a PowerBook, even a keyboard-size PowerBook is likely to keep travelling in a bag of some sorts, not in my (coat) pocket. Any device I will carry in my clothing is likely to be no more than PDA or cellphone-sized.



    [quote]<strong>For me, Escher, that is the only problem with the Sony VAIOSRX99 (2.76 lbs). Size is as important to me in a subnotebook as weight.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Oh no, the enemy has split the subnotebook camp in half... Ever since going from my 2400c to my iBook, I've come to appreciate the full-size keyboard. But as I said above, that's because I now use my iBook exclusively, while I used my 2400c in tandem with my iMac.



    [quote]<strong>That being said, I'm still awefully happy about Apples return to portable greatness!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Portable greatness! I second that. The new 12"/15"/17" lineup reminds me of the great days when Apple was selling (and advertizing) the PowerBook 2400c, PowerBook 1400c and PowerBook 3400 in a tri-part lineup. The new lineup warms my heart.



    Escher
  • Reply 76 of 109
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    I think what Escher is looking for is a really thin laptop about 3/4" thick, 9.25" wide and 7.75" deep with an 11" screen. How so thin and small? Smaller than normal keyboard (about 90% of full size), no internal optical drive and it uses iPod sized drives. Built-in bluetooth, airport, 2 USB, 1 Firewire, RGB out, audio I/O, and a combo netowrk/modem port (needs to be thin to fit in 3/4 thick case) that you need an RJ45 or RJ11 dongle for. Add that new-fangled battery technology in the new PowerBook and there you have it. Apple would never make it but you can dream right?
  • Reply 77 of 109
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    It seems to me that rather than Making a Sub-Notebook, Apple is making its existing Notebooks Bigger While still keeping 12 inch models to act as sub-notebooks.

    first it was the Powerbook with its 15 inch widescreen that turned so many heads and forever changed the way laptops are percieved. then the 14 inch iBook, designed as a laptop for serious laptop users that can't afford a Powerbook. Now we have 17 inch monster and the 12 inch baby.



    The new powerbook 12 inch and the iBooks, now appear as dwarfs next to their 14 15 and 17 inch bretheren. Granted the one thing differing the 12 inch Powerbook from a sub-notebook is its price. But within the Apple matrix of Portables the 12 inch series is definatly a sub-notebook type laptop.
  • Reply 78 of 109
    escherescher Posts: 1,811member
    [quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

    <strong>I think what Escher is looking for is a really thin laptop about 3/4" thick, 9.25" wide and 7.75" deep with an 11" screen... and a combo netowrk/modem port... that you need an RJ45 or RJ11 dongle for.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Sounds good to me, as long as we loose the dongle. Dongles, mostly used with PC Cards, are a thing of the past. There are combo ports that serve double duty as modem and Ethernet ports. But IMO, it's easier to have two separate ports built-in. I certainly would love to see the prismatic battery technology form the 17" PowerBook applied to the 12" PowerBook. The 5 hour batter life they quote is still only a best case scenario and drops drastically when you don't dim the screen, especially when the battery starts aging. Can you imagine an 11" PowerBook with 8 hour theoretical battery life and 6 hours with real-world usage?



    Escher
  • Reply 79 of 109
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    [quote]Originally posted by Escher:

    <strong>



    Sounds good to me, as long as we loose the dongle. Dongles, mostly used with PC Cards, are a thing of the past. There are combo ports that serve double duty as modem and Ethernet ports. But IMO, it's easier to have two separate ports built-in. I certainly would love to see the prismatic battery technology form the 17" PowerBook applied to the 12" PowerBook. The 5 hour batter life they quote is still only a best case scenario and drops drastically when you don't dim the screen, especially when the battery starts aging. Can you imagine an 11" PowerBook with 8 hour theoretical battery life and 6 hours with real-world usage?



    Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I thought of a combo port since space is limited on such a small laptop, but Apple has made us so used to dongles, like the one for powerbooks to use VGA connectors, and the one on the ibook for RGB&gt;VGA, I figured i could sneak one in.
  • Reply 80 of 109
    macgregormacgregor Posts: 1,434member
    I guess you have to take the time to get used to the Picturebook to feel its utility. After a week, the keyboard and display seemed fine.



    [quote] Originally from Escher: So you live in Alaska, MacGregor? To me, a PowerBook, even a keyboard-size PowerBook is likely to keep travelling in a bag of some sorts, not in my (coat) pocket. Any device I will carry in my clothing is likely to be no more than PDA or cellphone-sized. <hr></blockquote>



    No, Escher, just Oregon, but I'm outside alot and usually it's cold enough and rainy enough from mid-October to mid-June. I have a Visor pda, which I like better than I originally thought I would. But I have been debating its utility now that I have entered mobile-phone-dom. I use it to keep track of my calendar, expenses and to have handy apps with me for stargazing, games, doodling and the like. My thoughts have been that the Clio-tablet device or Picturebook could somehow take in the pda and my desire for a mobile iDevise that could also do iPod, videoPod and word/email functions. I don't need it to be a mobile computer.



    I should just take the time to mock one up and see if I'm just talking out of my anal orifice.
Sign In or Register to comment.