NHL 2003/04 - Who's Coming in Second?

moogs

HOLY CRAP.



I just read up that the Avs signed BOTH Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne on Thursday. That is some seriously scary shit. And the amazing part is, they went to Colorado, not the other way around, and they took less money. Kariya took basically a 90% pay cut to play with his old mate in a new town. Who says Roy's retirement is a bad thing -- you can pay both of their reduced salaries and still have money left over!







To those who make Rangers comparison on ESPN an elsewhere, you don't know hockey very well. The major differences between these two guys and all the guys the Rangers sign are: 1) These guys are both team-first type players; they will do whatever the coach asks of them. 2) They form one the very best forward tandems anyone has seen in the last 30 years. When they were on their game in Anaheim a few years back, you could compare them easily to the way Foresberg and Hejduk play together, or Yzerman and Shannahan or Jagr and Lemieux. They are completely aware of the other's habits and where they are on the ice.



The Rangers have never done that in recent years. They just sign random, sometimes fallen superstars from random teams. Often with attitude problems. There is no comparison between signing say Lindros and Holik vs. Kariya and Selanne. Guess which Sather would RATHER have, had he been given the choice?



So anyway, let's look at the potential lines, shall we (I'm sure the roster will change a bit, they're short at right wing):



1 - Hejduk, Foresberg, Tanguay

2 - Kariya, Sakic, Selanne (can you imagine Joe's assist totals??)

3 - Aubin, Reinprecht, Hinote (little grindage with some goals)

4 - Messier, Shantz, Willsie (more grindage)



1D - Foote and DeVries

2D - Blake and Marchment (the bruisers need to play with these guys)

3D - Skoula and Morris



NOW, if Aebischer can't find a way to come into his own with a lineup like THAT in front of him, he never will anywhere else either. Will be interesting to see if Colorado goes after Cujo. I frankly hope they do not. They don't need him IMO and he's not that impressive for the money.



[edit]



Oh by the way:



PP - Hejduk, Foresberg, Selanne, Blake, Skoula



SPOOKY.

buonrotto

So much for "I want to win a cup with the Ducks." I can't wait to hear the reception Kariya gets from the Anaheim fans. Curious how he bolts after his team goes almost all the way, and still takes a pay cut and talks about winning as a team. He had a team. I guess he thinks they don't have another run in them. Or maybe he 's smarting because he was a non-factor in the playoffs for the Ducks and that Giguere really is their star player now, and that the team is otherwise defense-oriented. I think that's it. He wants to play on a run and gun team. If Colorado didn't have Blake, they would be just like the old Oilers. Marchment is a non-factor these days, bring him out as the team mascot when you need a cheap shot. Foote is very good, but can't hold the defense together like Blake has. Good thing they have him, too bad he'll be retiring sooner than later.



Personally, I still don't think it adds up to a Cup winner, especially without a real goalie backing them. I tire of these all-star flavor-of-the-week teams: Colorado, Detroit, Philly, New York. *yawn* Give me the no-name (but Stanley Cup winners) NJ Devils any day of the week.

moogs

Well, I would be less enthusiastic if LaCroix had gone out and out-bid Anaheim or something, but the fact is he won't pay these two 8M between them when last year Kariya alone made 10. They just want to play together and they felt Colorado was where they wanted to go because of their style of play and big talent. For sure they were staying in the West for both personal and hockey reasons, but I don't think this was about money at all.



For whatever reason, Kariya sees something in the Anaheim organization he doesn't like. It's probably not a player issue but a management issue, though I have no clue what it could be. Maybe he doesn't get along with the GM anymore or the coach. I dunno. Apparently the Ducks made an offer not only to Kariya but to get Selanne back for next year, so there's something there (despite the Cup run) that they don't like. Can't blame em really, especially since they're taking *gasp* big pay cuts. Don't see that every day. In fact the only player I've ever seen willingly take a cut was Selanne when he signed with the Sharks.



The guy wants to find the right organization obviously where he can finish his career. San Jose is not a very friendly place from a player relations standpoint so I can see why he's leaving. Question is, how long with the strike in 04/05 be and will one or both of these guys stay on with the Avs?



Also, I agree in principle they're getting close to losing balance in their group of forwards. Too many stars is never a good thing. Hard to make it work. But that's the real kicker here is that both of these guys are hard-working, team-oriented guys. The reason the Rangers and Flyers don't pull it off is they have some dicks on their "star lists". I don't see anyone for Colorado qualifying in that regard other than Marchment maybe. I think he had better make this a good year or else he's done. And I imagine he knows it.

matsu

The move is designed by Kariya to make him an unrestricted free agent at the end of next year, thus ensuring a healthy bidding war on his services if he has a good year playing the give and go with Selanne, which, on Colorado, seems likely.

moogs

And there's that. I don't Kariya is looking for the fastest way to huge bucks though. He made 10M last year - the last three years in fact (I believe) - and he's not even one of the top 5 players in the league. So I don't think he's pulling a Jagr stunt.



I believe he genuinelly wants to play the rest of his career with Selanne and they're simply testing the waters. If things go good next year, they will restructure some contracts and find a way to keep both guys. And I bet both will make less than 7 a year. Both could easily be worth 10-11, but they won't go fishing for it if they're happy with what CO offers them as a team / personnel-wise.

slotracer152

you've gotta put Foresberg and Selanne together...didn't they play together for Sweeden?



besides...I'm a Wings fan



and as much as I used to hat Hatcher...I'm sure glad they picked him up...he will beat the crap out of those Colorado boys



I mean look at the Wings defence now: Lidstrom, Hatcher and Chelios



thats just the top 3



then they have that whole goal tender situation...Hasek may be coming back...rumors are that Joseph might go to the Rangers for Lindros...which I have mixed feelings about



but then there is Federov...his agent says he would be better off elsewhere...but he did this same thing a few years ago...he's just trying to get Holland excited

willoughby

Ummm, did you guys see who the Flyers signed as their starting goalie? It is a sad, sad time in Philly.



Bob Clark (flyers GM) has lost his mind.

buonrotto

Yeah, Clarke refuses (on record anyway) to go after Joseph. I wonder why though. There's always some little thing that's quite amiss in Philly. At least it isn't the politics and petty squabbles (yet) like a few years ago. He threw away Checmanek too, he could have gotten more for him from LA.



Buffalo did well getting Drury. Am I the only person who thinks he's that good or something?



It will of course be interesting to see what happens with the Devils. Lou doesn't seem too interesting in marquee players for the most-part, and he's got a long list of free agents, though most of them aren't too important. But both Nieuwendyk and Tverdovsky are both free agents, but both had relatively poor seasons, especially Tverdovsky who still has to learn to give and take hits. The defense seems more vulnerable since Daneyko will probably retire and Smehlik isn't exactly the future. Lou traded away a bunch of great defensive talent over the past few years (Commodore, Bombardir, Morrison, etc.). I wonder if it's going to come back and bite them?

matsu

All I know is that the leafs gave away their shot at Stanley Cup when hey first acquired Joseph and let Potvin go. Potvin could have been a great goalie, but they ruined him, as they ruined many potential greats when they flatly refused to play any defense in front of him for the better part of two seasons. When they got Joseph, Potvin was a better statistical goalie and had actually beaten Joseph in two seperate playoff series. Stats ALWAYS tell the story when it comes to goalies. There are myths about big/key saves, bu they're just myths, a goal is a goal, and Joseph wasn't any better than Potvin way back. But when they acquired him, his market value was very high, and know yet understood that he wasn't an elite goalie. They could have turend hockey on it's ear by trading Cujo for a couple of top flight players and rehabilitated Potvin's confedence in the process.



I wouldn't bid for Joseph, he'll want too much, and he isn't worth it, and after this year's playoffs and last summer's "contender" crap, he's damaged goods -- that's gotta hurt the confidence.

moogs

Slotracer:



Foresberg is Swedish, Selanne is a Finn. I am reasonably sure, given the rivalries between those two countries, that they did not play together in Sweden.





Even if they had played together in the past, I don't see the Hejduk-Foresberg-Tanguay line breaking up anytime soon. It will remain their #1 line most likely, assuming they play anywhere near as well as they did last year. You could switch Tanguay and Selanne at RW, but that would mean moving Selanne off Kariya's line. Not going to happen most nights.



As for Hatcher, he's pretty near "over the hill" territory. Unlike Chelios, he's not particularly mobile for a skater his age, though he can still hammer people. But both of Colorado's two big lines will have two big, mean defensmen to back them up. Foote, DeVries, Blake and Marchment are all more than capable of handling the goons of the world I'd say.



Federov is a goner.







On the Philly thing, all I can say is: what? you're just now realizing Bob Clarke is retarded?! This is the guy that sent Kent Manderville (one of their best penalty killers and roll players) to Pittsburgh for ex-felon Billy Tibbetts (one of Pittsburgh's biggest scrubs ever).

mgg

Oh ya! My home team looks like they're going to do it again.

moogs

Barring injuries or other unforseen havoc, I don't see how they won't at a minimum win the Western Conference by a mile. The playoffs are always tricky but I don't see how they could miss the finals, barring some freakish half-assed effort on their part (which I doubt if Granato is still coaching).



Sweet irony would be the nameless, AHL-infested Penguins making the final on the back of Lemiuex and a good goalie, and beating them. Then hell would freeze over and Satan would buy a new pair of CCMs.

trick fall

Hell will freeze over when my Rangers win the cup!

buonrotto

Without a great goaltender, even that forward lineup can't guarantee Colorado a trip to the finals, certainly not the Cup. They will likely win the President's Cup, but that's really not much of a reward. All it takes is one good defense. It's goalie or bust for the Avs.



Question is: who will be stupid enough to deal for Lindros?

moogs

I think Aebischer is going to be a solid minder once he fills into that starter roll. It's hard to lose games / feel pressure when your team averages 4 a night. Even NJ would have a hard time shutting them down 4 games out of 7. They could do it but it would be tough.



As for Lindros, who cares. I just want to see if NY is dumb enough to add Jagr (another locker room loser) to their roster.







[edit] Ugh. Colorado just signed some no-name defensman from Buffalo in a trade for Steve Reinprecht. DUMB! I don't know why LaCroix is so good at pulling off big trades/ signings, and so BAD at pulling off small ones. Last summer they traded Drury (DUMB) for an offensive defensman, last deadline Vrbata (DUMB) for Battaglia ... now their best young Center for some guy I've never heard of. Maybe he's an up-and-comer but still....

moogs

Now I know why I've never heard of him... jeezus. Pierre get off the booze. Celebration time from the big coupe is over -- quit making retarded trades!



http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/fea...363174527.html

moogs

Live on this thread shall... get me down the summertime will not!

buonrotto

Kenny Daneyko is officially retiring tomorrow at a Devils press conference. Who's gonna fill his shoes?



Stevens (for one more year?) - Rafalski

White - Niedermayer

Albelin/Smehlik? - Tverdovsky?

moogs

Lou will find a grinder without much trouble I imagine. He'll go find a Bob Boughner type guy and whoever it ends up being will fit fine. I noticed Colorado kicked one of their "dirty old men" to the curb (Keane) today. I think they're going to give some of their defensive prospects a go. They also didn't re-sign Marchment, which is a sign of the same.



He was worthless in the playoffs which was a bit of a surprise to me. I thought he'd bring it every night for some reason. Now Toronto is more goon-like than ever. I think I'm pretty safe in saying everyone on that team is easy to hate other than Gary Roberts maybe -- and even he's annoying to non-Lead fans. Either way, I'm sure Marchment will have fun pounding on Phillips and anyone else who puts their knee in his way.

moogs

ConfirmeD: Pierre LaCroix is a bipolar freak of a GM. W-T-F is he thinking??? "Hmmm.. it's going to be too easy to win The Cup this year. Even though Patrick retired and we'll have a somewhat inexperienced netminder starting for us, I think I'll let Greg DeVries - one of our top 3 defensmen - go and see how our corps holds up."



http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2003/0714/1580640.html





IDIOT!

trick fall

I dunno if I like the Devries signing. Would he be a good partner for Leetch? I just hope they resign him. I actually think the Rangers will be a playoff team if they had the same team from last year stay healthy and have Sather behind the bench for the whole year. Of course I am an optimist.....