Oracle Shifts Research to India

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3058385.stm



While the article refers to Hyderabad, Indian IT is centered in Bangalore. For those of you who haven't been to Bangalore yet, the IT campuses are straight out of the Bay Area (or Redmond). I've toured Infosys, Wipro and MindTree Consulting, and from the layman's perspective, they're top-notch. Even the climate in Bangalore is mild the year-round (again like the Bay Area). And there are lots of US companies expanding there, e.g., Microsoft, Oracle, Intel, etc. It really represents the new India - which if the government ever stopped meddling in the economy and improved the education system - would take off like a rocket.



Unfortunately, Apple is largely non-existent in India.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 46
    gardnerjgardnerj Posts: 167member
    There are not enough swear words in my vocabulary to express my feeling on this subject.



    Suffice to say that I.T. in the UK is going the same way as the coal mines and manufacturing industry.



    Still I was looking for a new career anyway ...



    Incidentally shouldn't this be in appleoutsider
  • Reply 2 of 46
    Understandably this issue generates a lot of heartburn. No one likes to see American (or British) jobs shipped overseas. Hopefully the benefits to society - cheaper software and BPO - will outweigh the costs. Doesn't do you much good as an individual though. Sometimes capitalism can be a bitch.



    And industry trends should be discussed in "general discussion." I checked before posting.



    p.s. here's an announcement by Yahoo! today as well: http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/news...tr1023816.html
  • Reply 3 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by gobble gobble

    Understandably this issue generates a lot of heartburn. No one likes to see American (or British) jobs shipped overseas. Hopefully the benefits to society - cheaper software and BPO - will outweigh the costs. Doesn't do you much good as an individual though. Sometimes capitalism can be a bitch.



    And industry trends should be discussed in "general discussion." I checked before posting.



    p.s. here's an announcement by Yahoo! today as well: http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/news...tr1023816.html




    Capitalism is definitely a bitch. Many workers are getting screwed over in two ways. Jobs are exporting to India/China and Immigrant workers on Visa are being imported. I don't buy the cheaper software crap. It's all about Companies making more profit at the same price points hence pleasing Wallstreet . The highly compensated Execs will be the ones to reap the rewards.



    Why don't we do this. If American companies are so eager to move their production overseas then I believe Fair Trade should consist of reducing or eliminating any Tariffs or other fees of any kind on Foreign products.
  • Reply 4 of 46
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    I'm sure you all would feel differently if you lived in India.
  • Reply 5 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    One of Oracle's first employees was Umang Gupta, who actually drafted their first business plan. He's probably one of the richest people in the Bay Area. I think some of you may be confusing the search for skilled Indian programmers/engineers with the outsourcing of unskilled jobs like phone jockeying to India. I don't see anything but good for the global tech landscape as a result of this.
  • Reply 6 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    So american corps. shipping off the best paying american jobs to india for pennies on the dollar is good (in the long or short run) how?



    what's replacing these jobs?



    what replaced the textitle jobs we used to have?



    (hint: think walmart not oracle. macjobs not adobe)



    Some of the two scariest words being thrown around right now IMO are "Jobless Recovery" all those miliions we have lost in the last 2 years. they won't be coming back. we will have a new class of permanantly out of work. at best sliding from part time (with NO health ins. and very little benefits) work to part time shitty work.



    The employerer is the new king of the moutain. Don't like your job mr. 80k a year mid level programmer. Fine. (click mouse) i just hired 5 indead programmers for 20k a year.



    Don't like your job mr. stock boy.? Fine, there are plenty of people with college degrees that will fill it. <rustles thru hundreds of resumes.> your fired. Got a grievence? Go ahead. A certain president just passed th largest service cut in history. that dept has been cut back. they will get to you in 3 years.



    This is nothing but bad for america in the long run.



    Quote:

    Why don't we do this. If American companies are so eager to move their production overseas then I believe Fair Trade should consist of reducing or eliminating any Tariffs or other fees of any kind on Foreign product



    This has to be brought into the american conversation soon. Cause f$%inking microsoft (with $50 billion in the back and shipping jobs off to india) sure as F$% ain't going to do this..



    I've already resigned myself that this trend will end up in a tiered america (more so than now) welcome to the future folks. It aint bright (even if you are!)
  • Reply 7 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    Quote:

    I think some of you may be confusing the search for skilled Indian programmers/engineers with the outsourcing of unskilled jobs like phone jockeying to India.



    Both of those types of jobs are EXACTLY that kind being shipped to India. And soon the eastern block.
  • Reply 8 of 46
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    So?



    I'd think that most people posting here want the developing world to ... develop. Get higher paying jobs that require more education and increase the standard of living. Until it's an area that they work in. Then it's toss up the trade barriers and protect 'merican jobs for 'mericans. Pass a law against that! "You can hire brown people to do my job!"
  • Reply 9 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by keyboardf12

    Both of those types of jobs are EXACTLY that kind being shipped to India. And soon the eastern block.



    I want the best brains to do the job. The brains in this country aren't going to vanish. They're just going to be part of a bigger pool for companies to choose from. God forbid competition would come into play!
  • Reply 10 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    So?



    I'd think that most people posting here want the developing world to ... develop. Get higher paying jobs that require more education and increase the standard of living. Until it's an area that they work in. Then it's toss up the trade barriers and protect 'merican jobs for 'mericans. Pass a law against that! "You can hire brown people to do my job!"




    cough cough BS



    Quote:

    I want the best brains to do the job. The brains in this country aren't going to vanish. They're just going to be part of a bigger pool for companies to choose from. God forbid competition would come into play!



    Yes Eugene and to Silicon Valley execs the BEST person is the Worker on Visa who can be had for 60% Walter Kruz ex Sun employee may disagree



    The simple question is if China and India have such immense talent ...why are they in the US? Why isn't India becoming a Global Power with their residents staying home? Immigration has to have limits when you're talking about dealing with two countries with a 3rd of the Worlds Population. No one can compete with that many bodies.



    Remember many Visas exempt employees from paying Fica/Medicare. This means not only do you have one less American working but the Visa worker reduces the amount of money going towards Social Security. It's a lose/lose proposition.



    If America is dumb..let us be dumb. America seems to be "competing" itself into oblivion. Smart
  • Reply 11 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Remember many Visas exempt employees from paying Fica/Medicare. This means not only do you have one less American working but the Visa worker reduces the amount of money going towards Social Security. It's a lose/lose proposition.



    If America is dumb..let us be dumb. America seems to be "competing" itself into oblivion. Smart



    You're thinking a bit too narrowly here. If Joe America wants to get a job, he's going to have to be smarter than Dharmesh from Mumbai. Big deal! Forcing Americans to work harder isn't exactly a bad idea. So you have a dumb guy that demands $75/hr and a smart guy that asks for $50/hr. If you run a business, who are you going to hire???



    Social Security, the largest pyramid scheme on the planet, doesn't work??? OMG. What's new? These are huge multinational/global corporations here. It's not about you, me or any one country's spoils.
  • Reply 12 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Eugene

    You're thinking a bit too narrowly here. If Joe America wants to get a job, he's going to have to be smarter than Dharmesh from Mumbai. Big deal! Forcing Americans to work harder isn't exactly a bad idea. So you have a dumb guy that demands $75/hr and a smart guy that asks for $50/hr. If you run a business, who are you going to hire???



    Social Security, the largest pyramid scheme on the planet, doesn't work??? OMG. What's new? These are huge multinational/global corporations here. It's not about you, me or any one country's spoils.




    You hire the $50 guy whether he's the smartest or not if your and Exec with eyes on company profits. Most employees in large companies have no autonomy anyways. They will simply carry out the tasks ordered by their Superior. The fact that it takes two incomes and generally 50+ hours a week to get ahead probably shows that Americans are working hard enough. While Dharmesh's work is appreciated man of us realize his allegiance is probably to India and not the US. I'm not for the abolition of Immigrant Workers but when our citizens have been told to leave their former careers to join the "Red Hot IT Sector" only to be unemployed now...that doesn't sit well with me.



    Social Security bet it as it may. Is many people hope for retirement. The two are inextricably linked. If a 50yrd old making 120K per year is replaced by a 35yr old Visa worker making 80k you have hurt the 50yr old twice. Cut his/her job reduced the amount of SS available and hurt the retirement options.



    Think about it. EVERY Job in the United Stated could be filled by and Indian or Chinese 3x over. I guess the real question is what do we as citizens owe our Government and and what does our Government owe us?
  • Reply 13 of 46
    gardnerjgardnerj Posts: 167member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    You hire the $50 guy whether he's the smartest or not ...



    Make that $5 an hour (the going rate in Bangalore) and you see the problem.



    I have no problem with foreign competition i merely think that if a person is doing a job they should be paid fairly. This smacks of exploitation. For corporate bottom lines.



    The IT sector in the UK is devastated at the moment and i don't think it will recover anytime soon, throw in the call centre jobs... in fact any office based job and pretty soon there will be no employees in the uk to pay for the services being provided from abroad.



    Saw this coming about 2-3 years ago hence i'm moving to Australia (i figure if i'm going to be unemployed it may as well be somewhere with a good climate).
  • Reply 14 of 46
    Without stepping too far into the debate about US/UK jobs fleeing overseas, two points:



    1. The average Indian IT worker is paid about a third of what he would earn in America (according to NASSCOM, an Indian IT lobbying group). This is darn good money in India and earns quite a nice lifestyle. In fact, some Indian software engineers are now refusing to go to the States because $25K in India allows a better lifestyle than $75k in America. I mean where else can you hire a full-time domestic servant for $100 a month (cook, clean, wash car, etc.) and the most expensive restaurant meal won't cost more than $15.



    2. Indian IT workers in the US do pay US social security, and it's a real sore point with them since they'll never see the benefits of their contributions.
  • Reply 15 of 46
    Quote:

    Originally posted by gardnerj

    Make that $5 an hour (the going rate in Bangalore) and you see the problem.



    I have no problem with foreign competition i merely think that if a person is doing a job they should be paid fairly. This smacks of exploitation. For corporate bottom lines.



    The IT sector in the UK is devastated at the moment and i don't think it will recover anytime soon, throw in the call centre jobs... in fact any office based job and pretty soon there will be no employees in the uk to pay for the services being provided from abroad.



    Saw this coming about 2-3 years ago hence i'm moving to Australia (i figure if i'm going to be unemployed it may as well be somewhere with a good climate).




    got to agree with you there, britain will eventually become one giant admin centre for europe with all the labour being abroad where they pay peanuts. On a political note, kick out blair because if he lasts another term its just going to be margret thatcher all over again.



    but back to india, if M$ wants to move to india and pay bugger all to its workers let em, with a country thats unstable and underdeveloped they'll fit right in
  • Reply 16 of 46
    gardnerjgardnerj Posts: 167member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by cybermonkey

    [B]On a political note, kick out blair ...




    Beleive me we're trying.



    Back on subject, a government department recently wrote to business owners highlighting the benfits of employing foreign labour .... way to build a long term robust economy boys....



    Quote:

    1. The average Indian IT worker is paid about a third of what he would earn in America (according to NASSCOM, an Indian IT lobbying group). This is darn good money in India and earns quite a nice lifestyle. In fact, some Indian software engineers are now refusing to go to the States because $25K in India allows a better lifestyle than $75k in America. I mean where else can you hire a full-time domestic servant for $100 a month (cook, clean, wash car, etc.) and the most expensive restaurant meal won't cost more than $15.



    My point is that rather than investing in India/China/wherevers infrastructure and helping these countries develope this measure only delivers short term financial gain to a few before moving on to the next country that charges $4 rather than $5.
  • Reply 17 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    You hire the $50 guy whether he's the smartest or not if your and Exec with eyes on company profits. Most employees in large companies have no autonomy anyways. They will simply carry out the tasks ordered by their Superior. The fact that it takes two incomes and generally 50+ hours a week to get ahead probably shows that Americans are working hard enough. While Dharmesh's work is appreciated man of us realize his allegiance is probably to India and not the US. I'm not for the abolition of Immigrant Workers but when our citizens have been told to leave their former careers to join the "Red Hot IT Sector" only to be unemployed now...that doesn't sit well with me.



    Bob Jones from Dearborn had better learn new skills then, because that's how the cookie crumbles. IT will continue to evolve; technology will continue to advance. Today's high-paying IT jobs will be equivalent to burger-flipping in the future. It's inevitable. Just as people got replaced by machines and assembly lines before, I don't see how people being replaced by people is that much different. If you want a position that Dharmesh Patel from Mumbai can easily fill, you're going to have to accept the lower pay, advance your skills to a point where you are desirable to an employer, or find a less congested profession.



    Quote:

    Social Security bet it as it may. Is many people hope for retirement. The two are inextricably linked. If a 50yrd old making 120K per year is replaced by a 35yr old Visa worker making 80k you have hurt the 50yr old twice. Cut his/her job reduced the amount of SS available and hurt the retirement options.



    Hoping you'll get money out of a pyramid scheme isn't going to increase your likelihood of getting that money. People from my generation will never see a dime from Social Security so I'm not sweating over such a loss.



    Quote:

    Think about it. EVERY Job in the United Stated could be filled by and Indian or Chinese 3x over. I guess the real question is what do we as citizens owe our Government and and what does our Government owe us?



    Our government owes us efficiency, infrastructure and the ability to educate us above the populations of India and China to a point where few jobs will be stolen because there will be no overlap. Technology will keep us ahead, such as how a combine makes a domestic farmer 100x more productive than a guy whipping a water buffalo dragging a wooden plow.
  • Reply 18 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    2. Indian IT workers in the US do pay US social security, and it's a real sore point with them since they'll never see the benefits of their contributions.



    No that's incorrect. I do payroll everyday and among my clients are a Top 5 Accounting Firm and a Computer Company based in San Jose . I can assure you that a good portion of Visa workers don't pay SS. All they do is supply payroll their Visa status. H1 and J1 Visas are exempt I believe. I'd have to check. I'm sure some do after so much ..but not many.



    Hell #$%^ the US when can we go start working in India. I'm liking those benefits and East Indian Women are H-O-T.
  • Reply 19 of 46
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison



    Hell #$%^ the US when can we go start working in India. I'm liking those benefits and East Indian Women are H-O-T.




    And they read the kamasutra!!



    thing is though while your over there, just think about the kids that are enslaved to pick tea and make footballs. i read this somewhere, and apparently parents who live in poverty are forced to sell their kids as slave labour. Its seen as a loan, but its so high they can never pay it back and so the children are doomed to hard labour all for a bit of food and a bed.
  • Reply 20 of 46
    madmax559madmax559 Posts: 596member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by hmurchison

    [B]No that's incorrect. I do payroll everyday and among my clients are a Top 5 Accounting Firm and a Computer Company based in San Jose . I can assure you that a good portion of Visa workers don't pay SS. All they do is supply payroll their Visa status. H1 and J1 Visas are exempt I believe. I'd have to check. I'm sure some do after so much ..but not many.







    where the hell are you getting your info ?



    i moved to the u.s 7 years ago & have paid ss/fica/medicare

    every single paycheck

    (no regrets either beacuse i applied to be naturalized

    so i damm well better get medicare when im old & senile

    & still ranting on these boards
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