Oracle Shifts Research to India

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    madmax559madmax559 Posts: 596member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by gobble gobble



    Unfortunately, Apple is largely non-existent in India.




    er thats incorrect ...they are simply overpriced for the avg

    indian



    i grew up in bombay in the 70's & even then there were

    apple II's in some schools & were really expensive



    btw what part of india are you in ?
  • Reply 22 of 46
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    Quote:

    Technology will keep us ahead, such as how a combine makes a domestic farmer 100x more productive than a guy whipping a water buffalo dragging a wooden plow.



    Of course this assumes that productivity is measured in very narrow economic way. To assume 100x more productivity the combine needs flat land, large enough fields for the combine to operate, large enough land holdings to allow the purchase of the combine, and crops that can be harvested with a combine. This all leads to a series of cascading effects which change land patterns and crop patterns, both of which are not necessarily "efficient" when measured against other economic factors.



    Technology can keep us ahead? How long before the equivalent of the airbus consortium appears on the tech landscape?
  • Reply 23 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    some of these comments are sheer kookoo-ness. I don't know if some of you are still in college or live at home but joe lunchbox in the real world does not share your enlighten views.



    Quote:

    So?



    I'd think that most people posting here want the developing world to ... develop. Get higher paying jobs that require more education and increase the standard of living. Until it's an area that they work in. Then it's toss up the trade barriers and protect 'merican jobs for 'mericans. Pass a law against that! "You can hire brown people to do my job!"



    What I am discussing are jobs that require more education. when those are gone (or shifted en masse) It won't matter how much "more education" you get if there are no jobs in the field you are studying in. Oh yes. I see. we expect everyone in america to perform a sea change every ten years and "go back to college" when their job market is shipped over seas while american corps "choose the right man for the right price" instead of the uneducated american. Sure.



    Again Corps. with $50 billion in the bank and still shipping high quality american jobs to india and the eastern block and to the third world helps america how?







    Quote:

    I want the best brains to do the job. The brains in this country aren't going to vanish. They're just going to be part of a bigger pool for companies to choose from. God forbid competition would come into play!



    I just back from Disneyland. Theres a land where this stuff comes tru there. Elsewhere not. " I want the best brains to do the job. " And greedy corp. want the work done for the lowest cost. Guess which one wins out.



    "The brains in this country aren't going to vanish. "



    Agreed. they will just have high degrees of unemployement. Much higher than there would be if the Oracles of America ship out quality jobs solely for the sake of saving money and taxes (while they sit on piles of cash)





    "God forbid competition would come into play!"



    (No disrespect indtended but) But thats a Naive a comment. Competition is good. Greedy american corps. acting even more greedliy (remember the great line from LOTR and the dwarves of moria. very fitting here) should be hel accountable by the public and the government.





    Quote:

    Originally posted by Eugene

    You're thinking a bit too narrowly here. If Joe America wants to get a job, he's going to have to be smarter than Dharmesh from Mumbai. Big deal! Forcing Americans to work harder isn't exactly a bad idea. So you have a dumb guy that demands $75/hr and a smart guy that asks for $50/hr. If you run a business, who are you going to hire???



    Social Security, the largest pyramid scheme on the planet, doesn't work??? OMG. What's new? These are huge multinational/global corporations here. It's not about you, me or any one country's spoils



    hmurchison said it best.and get real. they are NOT paying him $50. as soon as the rates go up in india. they are moving to the eastern block and russia.



    Quote:

    Bob Jones from Dearborn had better learn new skills then, because that's how the cookie crumbles. IT will continue to evolve; technology will continue to advance. Today's high-paying IT jobs will be equivalent to burger-flipping in the future. It's inevitable. Just as people got replaced by machines and assembly lines before, I don't see how people being replaced by people is that much different. If you want a position that Dharmesh Patel from Mumbai can easily fill, you're going to have to accept the lower pay, advance your skills to a point where you are desirable to an employer, or find a less congested profession.





    And if the rate Bob Jones's job markets are shipped over seas is faster then Bob Jones can be retrained. What then?





    Quote:

    . It's inevitable.



    Really? Of course a certain percentage will go overs seas. What i am talking about is whole segments of the CS fields being shipped part and parcel that is no way in hell good for the economy. (expect the owners of those corps. that is.)



    Quote:

    If you want a position that Dharmesh Patel from Mumbai can easily fill, you're going to have to accept the lower pay, advance your skills to a point where you are desirable to an employer, or find a less congested profession.



    Really? You can afford to go back to college, retrain, and support your family when you get that new job that pays $5 per hour?



    You might want to talk to former programmers at quark and macromedia. then, after the conversation, ask them what the total worth of those words were the you just discussed and apply it to rent, milk. gasoline.



    Hope you don't have a degree in CS (really i do.) since you may be eating those words.
  • Reply 24 of 46
    gizzmonicgizzmonic Posts: 511member
    I'd like to think that globalization will raise the standard of living for 3rd-world countries...even if it hurts the US in the short run, it has some tangible benefits to the human race in the long run...
  • Reply 25 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gizzmonic

    I'd like to think that globalization will raise the standard of living for 3rd-world countries...even if it hurts the US in the short run, it has some tangible benefits to the human race in the long run...



    Hurt us for the "short run" No you're talking permanent Hurt Gizzmonic. 3 years ago there was a huge rush to shore up IT workers. Now we have roughly a Million IT workers out of a job. These jobs aren't coming back. By having the Standard of living decimated in America is going to do nothing to help 3rd world Countries. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.



    I still don't think it's clear to some of the people here. Our unemployment rate is as high as it's been in over a decade. Expect crime to rise...expect alot of frustration. America cannot continue to lose jobs and industries and remain a Power. Even Rome fell ...let's not be stupid and destroy what we have here.
  • Reply 26 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    Gizz,



    I've read reports (sorry i can't remember where otherwise i would supply links) that the maqudera district in mexico has actaully seen hourly wages decline that means the corps. (american in most cases) not only benefit from giving joe detroit's $45 pr hr job to Maquidera Joe at $6 per hour but in fact they are now taking adavantage of THEM too and reducing thier $6 to who knows what.



    and you can bet health care and other benefits are either not there are no where near as substantial for Maquidera Joe.



    We were sold a bill of goods in the form of nafta.



    this sucks because its (shipment of jobs) not even helping those people it was suppose to help. also, as for the enviroment, i can't think of a once place where the (shipment of jobs) helped it, but in fact seems to make those areas use up their natural resources faster
  • Reply 27 of 46
    madmax559madmax559 Posts: 596member
    to put it bluntly...



    a nations dominance stems from what the nation can control

    in our present time that resource happens to be information



    as IT jobs move out our economy will be supplemented by something else (bio tech?)

    however since we are in the eye of the storm it difficult to

    see what will transpire in the future



    another interesting aspect is that we may actually

    be in the stages of a long term eventual decline.

    all nations/empire rise & eventually fall & so it may come

    to pass that we (here in the u.s) will be superceded by

    an european superstate or an asian regional power

    (if we dont bomb them first) in a few 100 years or so



    ironically as our global awareness has grown, large companies

    have become powers unto themselves, so much so that political

    boundaries no longer matter & human beings become simply

    another resource to be consumed & discarded.



    one way to combat this is to innovate, innovate , innovate

    & keep the tech lead right here where it belongs in the u.s



    its depressing to see so many people out of work



    my 2c

    pete
  • Reply 28 of 46
    jante99jante99 Posts: 539member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Hurt us for the "short run" No you're talking permanent Hurt Gizzmonic. 3 years ago there was a huge rush to shore up IT workers. Now we have roughly a Million IT workers out of a job. These jobs aren't coming back. By having the Standard of living decimated in America is going to do nothing to help 3rd world Countries. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.



    I still don't think it's clear to some of the people here. Our unemployment rate is as high as it's been in over a decade. Expect crime to rise...expect alot of frustration. America cannot continue to lose jobs and industries and remain a Power. Even Rome fell ...let's not be stupid and destroy what we have here.




    You are talking like Pat Buchanan. Back in the 1800s the same argument was made when Irish and Eastern European immigrants started coming to America. The underlining reason being people were racist towards non protestant people.



    The same "us verse them" argument was used in the south to keep poor white share croppers in favor of segregation even though often they were in the same plight as poor black share croppers. (at least economically, obviously not socially).



    There will always be lots of jobs that have to remain in the US. If an ethernet cable breaks in an office a worker in India cannot fix it. Every McDonalds cannot be located in China in order to get the cheapest labor costs.



    With the rise of China in India more computer programs, hardware etc will have to be created, hence expanding the technology market, which will create more jobs.



    Face it, globalization is inevitable.
  • Reply 29 of 46
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    Quote:

    Face it, globalization is inevitable



    But under whose terms.
  • Reply 30 of 46
    gardnerjgardnerj Posts: 167member
    Quote:

    "us verse them"



    Well with big corps whispering in the ears of government and making far reaching social changes on our behalf i fail to see how we (keyboardf12, hmurchison and i) can be compared to any of those people you mention but thanks for calling us bigots always a pleasant thing to read.



    Quote:

    There will always be lots of jobs that have to remain in the US. If an ethernet cable breaks in an office a worker in India cannot fix it. Every McDonalds cannot be located in China in order to get the cheapest labor costs.



    Great flipping burgers ... something to look forward too. Thats why i went to University.



    Quote:

    With the rise of China in India more computer programs, hardware etc will have to be created, hence expanding the technology market, which will create more jobs.



    That arguement doesn't stand up either. How many hardware manufacturers do you know that pay 1st world wages ...

    Software will be written in the third world, to be used in third world call centres.
  • Reply 31 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    I disregarded his comments upon seeing the large font size: <h=maybe a big point size will hide>dumb comments</h>



    Whoohoo! Well if caring for my fellow 'americans is being a bigot...



    <insert rest of cliche here>



    Enjoy your future!



    \
  • Reply 32 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by gardnerj

    Great flipping burgers ... something to look forward too. Thats why i went to University.



    OMG, skilled positions in the past are no longer skilled positions today? Software and hardware will both increase considerably in volume, variety, and complexity. This kind of job export has existed for longer than any of us have lived. What are you guys afraid of, diminishing job security or national pride? Paranoia, paranoia...everybody's out there to get me...
  • Reply 33 of 46
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    It's always the some one nonsense with this issue. Exploited workers overseas. Big bad corporate greed mongers out to screw the average guy for no other reason that they can ... oh and money, greed and money.



    End result? Same old protectionist bullshit that keeps developing countries small and poor and developing countries fat and slow.
  • Reply 34 of 46
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    Quote:

    This kind of job export has existed for longer than any of us have lived.



    No it hasn't. Intentionally clueless or just arguing for the sake of it?



    No companies in earlier history would be able to afford the capital investments in shifting jobs across geographic locales until shifts in technologies had made previous modes of production, either entirely obsolete or very unprofitable. Note the word very, because companies will continue to run obsolete technology if the company derives some financial benefit not readily apparent on the bottom line--this has held true for fabs and steel plants.



    Shifting tech jobs from Silly Valley to India is not same as steel plants shutting down because of newer plants in Korea. We are talking about a company shifting operations, and this is only possible because either capital investment is not really necessary (programmers) or capital investment is paid for by someone other than the company in question (most phone banks have govt subsidized infrastructure).
  • Reply 35 of 46
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    No it hasn't. Intentionally clueless or just arguing for the sake of it?



    Willfully ignorant, clueless, and downright evil of course!
  • Reply 36 of 46
    jante99jante99 Posts: 539member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by gardnerj

    Well with big corps whispering in the ears of government and making far reaching social changes on our behalf i fail to see how we (keyboardf12, hmurchison and i) can be compared to any of those people you mention but thanks for calling us bigots always a pleasant thing to read.







    Great flipping burgers ... something to look forward too. Thats why i went to University.







    That arguement doesn't stand up either. How many hardware manufacturers do you know that pay 1st world wages ...

    Software will be written in the third world, to be used in third world call centres.




    Not to start a flame war, but would you rather work in a call center or some type of creative job?



    I did however mistate the first part of my response. Labor unions and other liberal groups who are clearly not bigots and are also fighting globilization for very different reasons. But unless we can come up with a superior alternative (something no one so far has come up with) globilization will win.



    Marxism attempted to offer this in the 19th century but was quickly debased and ruined by Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.



    Right now Greens, Labor, and others simply want to either go backwards to older systems (marxism, welfare state) or stay put. Unfortunatly the left really hasn't come up with a viable alternative.



    A controled version of globlization with quality working standards, fair wages, equal rights for employees and employers should be the outcome but right now it doesn't seem like it will be the out come.



    Like Marx said "Workers of the World Unite." If workers in the US fight workers in India/China the big coglomorates will win.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    keyboardf12keyboardf12 Posts: 1,379member
    Quote:

    ? Paranoia, paranoia...everybody's out there to get me...



    Yah. that's it. All of our comments come down to that. You nailed us.



    Next time i meet a displaced worker i'll send them over to you for sage advice.
  • Reply 38 of 46
    spindlerspindler Posts: 713member
    Eugene is basically saying that the good jobs lost will be replaced with other good jobs. This just is not true. Look at basic supply and demand.



    The goal of major corporations will be to COMMODITIZE every job they can. Every American worker will be making $12 an hour besides the jobs they can commoditize. If you double the number of people willing to fill an American job, but the added people don't contribute back to the American economy, how can that be good?



    To see what shipping good jobs overseas will do, let's measure it in the extreme. A business owner will own a business. He will have all the office tasks he can shipped overseas. You can call from India to check why the invoice wasn't paid. A specialist will come in to set up the transfer of as much of the accounting work as possible overseas. The specialized software for the business will be written overseas. The call center handling some of the product support will be overseas. Some of the network support will be overseas. The manufacturing of the product will be overseas.



    What good paying jobs will be left except a few management positions to coordinate all this? Everyone else will earn $12 an hour.



    Or think about a doctor. If somehow you could outsource your doctor's visit overseas, how would that make the employment situation in the U.S. any better? It would just mean that doctors that made $100,000 a year will be out of work.



    Outsourcing will not create GOOD new jobs. It will just eliminate all the high paying jobs it possibly can, with no return for the worker. Sure, more businesses will openup, with the workers getting paid nothing, and the skilled stuff being done overseas.



    And you guys saying Americans just have to be good enough to compete with Indians, how can I compete with someone making 5 times less per hour? Am I really going to be able to program five times faster than someone overseas?



    I do support the idea of the U.S. helping other countries, even if it hurts us a little economically. But the jobs shipped to India should be the kind that would pay $12 - $15 per hour here and might pay $5 per hour there. If:



    (1) an Indian can have a decent job added to his economy that he wouldn't have before

    (2) American companies can save some money and be healthier

    (3) The job lost does not dilute the economy because it is a semidesirable job that a person can get equivalent one without retraining



    then I am for it. But shipping $80,000 a year jobs overseas will only make the rich richer and the rest of Americans A LOT poorer.
  • Reply 39 of 46
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Armchair economist dream up numbers to "prove" they are right. Yawn.
  • Reply 40 of 46
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    Quote:

    Same old protectionist bullshit that keeps developing countries small and poor and developing countries fat and slow.



    I would hardly call India a developing country. It is the largest democracy in the world and has the largest middle class population. The hottest areas for shipping off high-tech jobs are not developing countries--Israel, India and Russian/USSR client states are not by any measure developing countries, no matter what biases you hold.



    And by economic measures, the average worker in the US is the most productive in the world.
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