Holy shit, some of you have taken one too many falls with ouy the protection of your pith helmets.
Year of the Laptop, what did Steve mean??? OMG! they're not updating the laptops? How can it be year of laptop without updates? Steve's ruining my life, OMG!
Jebus H kristi!!!
OK, one time, SLOOWWWWLY for the special kids.
Year of the laptop is pretty much year of the laptop for EVERY major computer maker out there. The price-performance-portability premium is closing enough that more people would rather have laptops than in the past. Sales in that category are growing faster than desktop sales, and this will be the best year for laptops yet, NOT JUST FOR APPLE!!!
Exactly what did you want hime to say back then? "Please, Buy one of our insanely overpriced G4 towers with almost enough performance to match a PC of half the cost?" Or mebbe, "Yeah, we won't be touching the rest of the laptop line for another 9 months, except mebbe to give the iBook a downgraded case and minor speed bump?"
Holy FVCK! some of you, I swear.
Apple's laptops are the savinng grace of the comapny and they're GOOD machines and still competitive. Now go find some other Steve quote to pant over while stroking your microscopic wieners with your mom's tweezers.
Easy Matsu
I totally agree though. When he said it, they released the quite popular 12 and 17 inch models which have sold extremely well! Their total laptop sales amount to 46% of all computers sold. THAT is why this is the year of the laptop. I was waiting for a PowerBook update at WWDC/Creative timeframe. Nothing came, so I just decided, I need a laptop and bought the 17" for desktop replacement. I really don't see myself going back to a desktop unless I get a new job where I need a dual PM G5. Until that day comes, I am living in PowerBook land. YEAR OF THE LAPTOP, indeed!
If the Rev. B 17" came with the 7457 (and all it entails) AND dropped to $2999, I'd honestly give it serious consideration. True "desktop replacement" and all.
But I'm not much interested in its current spec/price. We'll see what happens.
By September, the money won't be an issue. I could get whatever I wanted. Just want to do it smart.
Still think I'll lean to the 15". Just seems like the best of both: small BUT with a large, wide and high-resolution screen (larger, wider and higher-res than the 15" iMac I'm used to!). And with DVI out, I can always go larger can't I? Won't be a monitor on the planet I couldn't hook to, right?
In one sense Apple has made a great deal of progress as far as laptops go, even without updates, they have managed to make meaningful price corrections to their lineup. The 12" price was pretty sweet when it came out, but not neccessarily WOW! bowl me over that's a great deal good. With the recent price drops Apple now has three pretty neat options under 2K 12"combo/super and 15"combo. The 15" super is a tad high, and I'd look for that to drop just a bit more, to 2499.
Also, there are options for the first time since, well, ever! 5 PB models, all selling well! Options are good, and I would look for them to add a sixth option soon.
As Pscates premised, they could get the 17" model down to 2999, and then kick in an ULTIMATE config for 3499-3599. Think portable workstation, moreso than true laptop. Possibly a dual G4 or single G5 config with one of them FAST new 7200rpm 2.5" drives, maxx RAM, and not so much concerned with more than token battery life. Something for film, broadcast, or A/V pros to take ON LOCATION and PLUG-IN while they work on footage.
I believe such a beast could get a lot of attention from the "Desktop Replacement" market, only a bit more like workstation replacement.
As for the 17", I just can't see buying one. They look so huge, and the screen just looks too vulnerable for daily travel. 12-15" is the sweet spot for laptop that's gonna travel a lot during the day. 17" is really nice as an executive machine though. Something that drops into your brief case and into your car, and you open her up at the office without the need to do any "docking" The screen really is big enough. It's not something to bustle around in a bag though, even with a sleeve.
I'm using the 12 with a 19" LCD right now, and I think I will stick to 12" models for luggability and spend the extra dosh on really BIG displays for home.
It's a shame you can't drive Apple's gorgeous displays (the 20" in particular) with that 12" PowerBook.
THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
Maybe that's why they don't?
You're right about the 17". It would be so cool to have, but I don't know if I'd honestly dig it as much as the 15".
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
Then you unhook it and have a letter-page sized laptop that goes anywhere!
I bet Apple has considered this and thought "if we put DVI in the 12", the others would never sell!"
Of course, they'd probably enjoy a huge surge in display purchases, so...
It's a shame you can't drive Apple's gorgeous displays (the 20" in particular) with that 12" PowerBook. THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
That would be the ideal solution for me. Reastically, however, I'll simply have to get a 3rd party LCD with VGA-in for the 12-inch and DVI-in for a future PowerMac or Wintel desktop.
Quote:
Maybe that's why they don't?
The real reason, IMO, is that a 12-inch PowerBook with DVI would cost (almost) as much as a 15-inch PowerBook. The cool thing about the (admittedly lower-powered) 12-inch PowerBook is that you can access some of the PowerBook's "power" features, e.g. monitor spanning and a G4, at a former iBook-only price point. Cutting corners on the 12-inch PowerBook is what has allowed Apple to make its price so attractive.
Quote:
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
As I alluded to above, a 12-inch PowerBook with DVI-out would cost (almost) as much as a 15-inch PowerBook. Even though I would be more than happy to pay 15-inch prices for a 12-inch with DVI-out, I fear (and Apple realizes) that a majority of users would choose the larger screen at otherwise equal features and price. That's why I predict that we will not get DVI in the 12-inch PowerBook. I'll be happy (enough) if we get a higher RAM limit, L3 cache, and a 1Ghz+ PPC 7457 processor.
It's a shame you can't drive Apple's gorgeous displays (the 20" in particular) with that 12" PowerBook.
THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
Maybe that's why they don't?
You're right about the 17". It would be so cool to have, but I don't know if I'd honestly dig it as much as the 15".
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
Then you unhook it and have a letter-page sized laptop that goes anywhere!
I bet Apple has considered this and thought "if we put DVI in the 12", the others would never sell!"
Of course, they'd probably enjoy a huge surge in display purchases, so...
I don't mind admitting that the 12" is very cool, but that is a small screen, and some people won't like it, no matter what the specs are. I'm considering getting a 12" and half my hesitation comes from the fact that I strongly suspect I would never really enjoy a 12" screen, so I'm leaning towards the 15" TiBook.. You also have to consider that one of the major advantages of the 12" is the price and if you give it similar specs as the other two then the price is going up.
I don't mind admitting that the 12" is very cool, but that is a small screen, and some people won't like it, no matter what the specs are. I'm considering getting a 12" and half my hesitation comes from the fact that I strongly suspect I would never really enjoy a 12" screen, so I'm leaning towards the 15" TiBook.
I'm planning on a Rev B. 12", if Rev. B brings the improvements I'm hoping for, as a replacement for my current 800 MHz 15" TiBook. But I have to admit, the small screen -- or more specifically, the low resolution of the small screen -- gives me some pause.
With a menu bar at the top of the screen, and a Dock at the bottom, 1024x768 doesn't leave much room in the middle for what you're working on, even if you set your Dock icons down to about 32x32 pixels like I normally do. I find Dock auto-hiding too annoying, and don't want a vertical Dock on the left or right side of my screen either.
What I'd like is just a few more pixels. Not squint-inducing resolutions like some PC laptops, just a few more pixels. Something like 1080x810 would be great... enough extra to leave a little more than 768 vertical pixels above the Dock.
As much as I'd like this extra resolution, I'm not holding my breath. Using 1024x768 allows Apple to use a standard mass-produced LCD panel, which probably saves them some money (I have no idea how much) over buying LCDs at some custom resolution. Plus, even though the 112 ppi resolution wouldn't be too terribly eye-straining for most users, Apple doesn't seem to like pushing pixel densities much over 100 dpi. (The current 15" is 101 dpi, the smallest pixels I've known Apple to use.)
The reason I suspect that DVI isn't onboard a 12-in PowerBook is because they have no where to put it. Have you looked at a 12? Unless Apple develops some sort of special dongle (Ã* la the VGA port currently used) that allows them to fit it in, don't expect DVI. Secondly, I think the issue of cache is a good one. The lack of L3 cache while apparent is more a heat-saving feature than anything else. I read that the cache adds more hit to the mix, and given what we know about the 12-inch and heat...I can see why L3 was nixed too. Assuredly, I think we could expect to see the 12-inch get L3 cache with the new 7457 G4 chip because it will run cooler and more efficient.
pscates, we must be on similar wavelengths because in all reality I think Apple would do themselves well by having DVI on the 12-inch. I think you're 100% right on WRT having a 12-inch at home plugged into, say, a beautiful 23-inch Cinema Display; and when you're on the go removing DVI and having a truly portable Mac. But alas, there's the whole issue of space for the DVI, but I wish it were true because I would seriously consider it too!
The reason I suspect that DVI isn't onboard a 12-in PowerBook is because they have no where to put it. Have you looked at a 12? Unless Apple develops some sort of special dongle (Ã* la the VGA port currently used) that allows them to fit it in, don't expect DVI.
DHagan4755: You refute your own point. Sure there isn't much space for a DVI-out port on the left side of the 12-inch PowerBook, but there is absolutely no reason Apple couldn't put the DVI plug on a dongle. For all I care, they should put DVI-out and the optical drive on the dongle and make it a Dock!
The video card in the 12-inch is certainly not the limitation. As I pointed out above, I think the lack of DVI and other "power" features has more to do with cost and Apple wanting to keep the price of the 12-inch very accessible.
Quote:
The lack of L3 cache while apparent is more a heat-saving feature than anything else.
I have to disagree with that. When I bought my iBook/500 to replace my PowerBook 2400c, I excused the slow-ass 66Mhz bus (same as on the original iMac 3 years earlier!) as an energy- and heat-saving "feature". A few month later, the iBook got a 100Mhz bus with no noticable heat or power problems. IMO, the 12-inch PowerBook doesn't have L3 cache so that it can be as inexpensive as it is. Nothing else.
I hope that Apple will base the "Rev.B" 12-inch PowerBook on the new motherboard developed for the 15-inch Aluminum PowerBook and will thus include DVI-out and other "power" goodies. However, I realistically don't expect anything other than a bump in processor speed and increase of the on-board memory from 128 to 256MB. \
I'm not refuting my own point, but I think Apple would have to devise the dongle for DVI and I don't think it is as easy as saying, "let's make that port smaller and use a dongle."
I think the upside to a rev-B 12-in is that if they try to make it on par with what the 15 and 17 offer, that might actually help the 15 and 17 from a technical standpoint. The engineering involved in reducing something to fit the 12 to "pro" standards might mean they may be able to use the extra space in the 15 and 17 to offer more features like *wince* a second processor.
I haven't read every post in this thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned before but some may find this of interest: MacNews
From the article:
Quote:
According to those sources, the new PowerBook line will follow the Alu 12" and 17" looks and will be available with processors from 1.1 GHz to 1.3 GHz (all PowerPC 7457, G4) in 12, 15 and 17" designs.
My problem with this is that they're talking about September. Seems like the holdup is waiting for Mot to get its act together on the 7457. It's just agony being at their mercy. This would amount to a speed bump so no special event should be needed. Apple should simply release these things when they're ready to ship.
They used the dongle they had (to save money). DVI would have neccessitated the design of a new dongle and I think the key was to get it out NOW and lower the PB entry level, which they did. The 15 and 17 have regular old DVI-I ports (for VGA and DVI) but they have the real-estate to fit them in. In some ways VGA should cost MORE than DVI, since you need digital to analogue conversion, circuitry that you can skip altogether in the case of DVI-d. The 15 and 17, of course, drive both, which is as it should be, because there are plenty of great VGA based CRT's and even high end flat panels out there too.
I wouldn't worry about the VGA only out. Get a flat panel with dual imputs, there are plenty of really good ones from NEC, Samsung and Viewsonic, and they're much cheaper than Apple's flat panels.
I knew this wasn't just the the year of the laptop like some people have been thinking. Apple couldn't have possibly gone any longer without a major revamp of the Powermac line.
Comments
Originally posted by Matsu
Holy shit, some of you have taken one too many falls with ouy the protection of your pith helmets.
Year of the Laptop, what did Steve mean??? OMG! they're not updating the laptops? How can it be year of laptop without updates? Steve's ruining my life, OMG!
Jebus H kristi!!!
OK, one time, SLOOWWWWLY for the special kids.
Year of the laptop is pretty much year of the laptop for EVERY major computer maker out there. The price-performance-portability premium is closing enough that more people would rather have laptops than in the past. Sales in that category are growing faster than desktop sales, and this will be the best year for laptops yet, NOT JUST FOR APPLE!!!
Exactly what did you want hime to say back then? "Please, Buy one of our insanely overpriced G4 towers with almost enough performance to match a PC of half the cost?" Or mebbe, "Yeah, we won't be touching the rest of the laptop line for another 9 months, except mebbe to give the iBook a downgraded case and minor speed bump?"
Holy FVCK! some of you, I swear.
Apple's laptops are the savinng grace of the comapny and they're GOOD machines and still competitive. Now go find some other Steve quote to pant over while stroking your microscopic wieners with your mom's tweezers.
Easy Matsu
I totally agree though. When he said it, they released the quite popular 12 and 17 inch models which have sold extremely well! Their total laptop sales amount to 46% of all computers sold. THAT is why this is the year of the laptop. I was waiting for a PowerBook update at WWDC/Creative timeframe. Nothing came, so I just decided, I need a laptop and bought the 17" for desktop replacement. I really don't see myself going back to a desktop unless I get a new job where I need a dual PM G5. Until that day comes, I am living in PowerBook land. YEAR OF THE LAPTOP, indeed!
But I'm not much interested in its current spec/price. We'll see what happens.
By September, the money won't be an issue. I could get whatever I wanted. Just want to do it smart.
Still think I'll lean to the 15". Just seems like the best of both: small BUT with a large, wide and high-resolution screen (larger, wider and higher-res than the 15" iMac I'm used to!). And with DVI out, I can always go larger can't I? Won't be a monitor on the planet I couldn't hook to, right?
Also, there are options for the first time since, well, ever! 5 PB models, all selling well! Options are good, and I would look for them to add a sixth option soon.
As Pscates premised, they could get the 17" model down to 2999, and then kick in an ULTIMATE config for 3499-3599. Think portable workstation, moreso than true laptop. Possibly a dual G4 or single G5 config with one of them FAST new 7200rpm 2.5" drives, maxx RAM, and not so much concerned with more than token battery life. Something for film, broadcast, or A/V pros to take ON LOCATION and PLUG-IN while they work on footage.
I believe such a beast could get a lot of attention from the "Desktop Replacement" market, only a bit more like workstation replacement.
As for the 17", I just can't see buying one. They look so huge, and the screen just looks too vulnerable for daily travel. 12-15" is the sweet spot for laptop that's gonna travel a lot during the day. 17" is really nice as an executive machine though. Something that drops into your brief case and into your car, and you open her up at the office without the need to do any "docking" The screen really is big enough. It's not something to bustle around in a bag though, even with a sleeve.
I'm using the 12 with a 19" LCD right now, and I think I will stick to 12" models for luggability and spend the extra dosh on really BIG displays for home.
THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
Maybe that's why they don't?
You're right about the 17". It would be so cool to have, but I don't know if I'd honestly dig it as much as the 15".
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
Then you unhook it and have a letter-page sized laptop that goes anywhere!
I bet Apple has considered this and thought "if we put DVI in the 12", the others would never sell!"
Of course, they'd probably enjoy a huge surge in display purchases, so...
Originally posted by pscates
It's a shame you can't drive Apple's gorgeous displays (the 20" in particular) with that 12" PowerBook. THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
That would be the ideal solution for me. Reastically, however, I'll simply have to get a 3rd party LCD with VGA-in for the 12-inch and DVI-in for a future PowerMac or Wintel desktop.
Maybe that's why they don't?
The real reason, IMO, is that a 12-inch PowerBook with DVI would cost (almost) as much as a 15-inch PowerBook. The cool thing about the (admittedly lower-powered) 12-inch PowerBook is that you can access some of the PowerBook's "power" features, e.g. monitor spanning and a G4, at a former iBook-only price point. Cutting corners on the 12-inch PowerBook is what has allowed Apple to make its price so attractive.
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
As I alluded to above, a 12-inch PowerBook with DVI-out would cost (almost) as much as a 15-inch PowerBook. Even though I would be more than happy to pay 15-inch prices for a 12-inch with DVI-out, I fear (and Apple realizes) that a majority of users would choose the larger screen at otherwise equal features and price. That's why I predict that we will not get DVI in the 12-inch PowerBook. I'll be happy (enough) if we get a higher RAM limit, L3 cache, and a 1Ghz+ PPC 7457 processor.
Escher
Originally posted by pscates
It's a shame you can't drive Apple's gorgeous displays (the 20" in particular) with that 12" PowerBook.
THAT would be the ideal combo: small and light for travel, hooked to a honkin', gorgeous LCD while at home.
I truly think that if Apple included DVI on the 12", it would trump the 15" and 17" in sales because of this very thing. Best of all worlds, really...travel AND home.
Maybe that's why they don't?
You're right about the 17". It would be so cool to have, but I don't know if I'd honestly dig it as much as the 15".
But honestly: if the 12" ever got the DVI and cache and specs approaching its two bigger brothers, who WOULDN'T want one? And then take the extra money saved by getting the 12" and spend it on a really nice big display for home use when you're there.
Then you unhook it and have a letter-page sized laptop that goes anywhere!
I bet Apple has considered this and thought "if we put DVI in the 12", the others would never sell!"
Of course, they'd probably enjoy a huge surge in display purchases, so...
I don't mind admitting that the 12" is very cool, but that is a small screen, and some people won't like it, no matter what the specs are. I'm considering getting a 12" and half my hesitation comes from the fact that I strongly suspect I would never really enjoy a 12" screen, so I'm leaning towards the 15" TiBook.. You also have to consider that one of the major advantages of the 12" is the price and if you give it similar specs as the other two then the price is going up.
Originally posted by Delphiki
I don't mind admitting that the 12" is very cool, but that is a small screen, and some people won't like it, no matter what the specs are. I'm considering getting a 12" and half my hesitation comes from the fact that I strongly suspect I would never really enjoy a 12" screen, so I'm leaning towards the 15" TiBook.
I'm planning on a Rev B. 12", if Rev. B brings the improvements I'm hoping for, as a replacement for my current 800 MHz 15" TiBook. But I have to admit, the small screen -- or more specifically, the low resolution of the small screen -- gives me some pause.
With a menu bar at the top of the screen, and a Dock at the bottom, 1024x768 doesn't leave much room in the middle for what you're working on, even if you set your Dock icons down to about 32x32 pixels like I normally do. I find Dock auto-hiding too annoying, and don't want a vertical Dock on the left or right side of my screen either.
What I'd like is just a few more pixels. Not squint-inducing resolutions like some PC laptops, just a few more pixels. Something like 1080x810 would be great... enough extra to leave a little more than 768 vertical pixels above the Dock.
As much as I'd like this extra resolution, I'm not holding my breath. Using 1024x768 allows Apple to use a standard mass-produced LCD panel, which probably saves them some money (I have no idea how much) over buying LCDs at some custom resolution. Plus, even though the 112 ppi resolution wouldn't be too terribly eye-straining for most users, Apple doesn't seem to like pushing pixel densities much over 100 dpi. (The current 15" is 101 dpi, the smallest pixels I've known Apple to use.)
Originally posted by pscates
Maybe that's why they don't?
The reason I suspect that DVI isn't onboard a 12-in PowerBook is because they have no where to put it. Have you looked at a 12? Unless Apple develops some sort of special dongle (Ã* la the VGA port currently used) that allows them to fit it in, don't expect DVI. Secondly, I think the issue of cache is a good one. The lack of L3 cache while apparent is more a heat-saving feature than anything else. I read that the cache adds more hit to the mix, and given what we know about the 12-inch and heat...I can see why L3 was nixed too. Assuredly, I think we could expect to see the 12-inch get L3 cache with the new 7457 G4 chip because it will run cooler and more efficient.
pscates, we must be on similar wavelengths because in all reality I think Apple would do themselves well by having DVI on the 12-inch. I think you're 100% right on WRT having a 12-inch at home plugged into, say, a beautiful 23-inch Cinema Display; and when you're on the go removing DVI and having a truly portable Mac. But alas, there's the whole issue of space for the DVI, but I wish it were true because I would seriously consider it too!
Originally posted by DHagan4755
The reason I suspect that DVI isn't onboard a 12-in PowerBook is because they have no where to put it. Have you looked at a 12? Unless Apple develops some sort of special dongle (Ã* la the VGA port currently used) that allows them to fit it in, don't expect DVI.
DHagan4755: You refute your own point. Sure there isn't much space for a DVI-out port on the left side of the 12-inch PowerBook, but there is absolutely no reason Apple couldn't put the DVI plug on a dongle. For all I care, they should put DVI-out and the optical drive on the dongle and make it a Dock!
The video card in the 12-inch is certainly not the limitation. As I pointed out above, I think the lack of DVI and other "power" features has more to do with cost and Apple wanting to keep the price of the 12-inch very accessible.
The lack of L3 cache while apparent is more a heat-saving feature than anything else.
I have to disagree with that. When I bought my iBook/500 to replace my PowerBook 2400c, I excused the slow-ass 66Mhz bus (same as on the original iMac 3 years earlier!) as an energy- and heat-saving "feature". A few month later, the iBook got a 100Mhz bus with no noticable heat or power problems. IMO, the 12-inch PowerBook doesn't have L3 cache so that it can be as inexpensive as it is. Nothing else.
I hope that Apple will base the "Rev.B" 12-inch PowerBook on the new motherboard developed for the 15-inch Aluminum PowerBook and will thus include DVI-out and other "power" goodies. However, I realistically don't expect anything other than a bump in processor speed and increase of the on-board memory from 128 to 256MB.
Escher
I think the upside to a rev-B 12-in is that if they try to make it on par with what the 15 and 17 offer, that might actually help the 15 and 17 from a technical standpoint. The engineering involved in reducing something to fit the 12 to "pro" standards might mean they may be able to use the extra space in the 15 and 17 to offer more features like *wince* a second processor.
From the article:
According to those sources, the new PowerBook line will follow the Alu 12" and 17" looks and will be available with processors from 1.1 GHz to 1.3 GHz (all PowerPC 7457, G4) in 12, 15 and 17" designs.
My problem with this is that they're talking about September. Seems like the holdup is waiting for Mot to get its act together on the 7457. It's just agony being at their mercy. This would amount to a speed bump so no special event should be needed. Apple should simply release these things when they're ready to ship.
I wouldn't worry about the VGA only out. Get a flat panel with dual imputs, there are plenty of really good ones from NEC, Samsung and Viewsonic, and they're much cheaper than Apple's flat panels.
Originally posted by Rolo
My problem with this is that they're talking about September.
This is what gets me too. By September the Ti Book will be ten months old!