I doubt that we will see dual 1,8 ghz G5 before 2004.
1) When IBM presented his next processor, the 970, in the microprocessor forum, he said that the chip will first scale at 1,8 ghz. Some months later many rumors said that IBM have pretty good yields , and even in some case chips able to clock at 2,5 ghz.
They announced 2 ghz : it's means that they where confident with their fabbing process. The only trouble they get, is that people ordered to many dual, and thus some delay on this model is possible, but there is no chance as downclock like Mot with the G4 500. Too much sucess for the 2 GHZ chip is different from inaptitude to fab them.
2) Bringing a dual 1,8 ghz in the market, before the G5 start shipping, will be a marketing error : it will piss off many people, me included. They should go dual later, but not in september.
They haven't even started shipping the lowest-end machines yet, and people still have plenty of time to reconsider a new option and replace their orders.
I, for one, would be very happy if they release a 1.8GHz DP model very soon.
They haven't even started shipping the lowest-end machines yet, and people still have plenty of time to reconsider a new option and replace their orders.
I, for one, would be very happy if they release a 1.8GHz DP model very soon.
It will piss me off, because i have already pre-ordered my G5. If they have announced a dual 1,8, perhaps i will have taken it (depending on the prize).
So the message will be, : dear Apple buyers of the first hour, you where stupid enought to have pre-ordered quickly our products, if you where more intelligent you would have waited and thus have more choice. The next time, don't pre-order any new computer from Apple.
Perhaps they will just ship a dual 1.8GHz instead of the single 1.8GHZ for the same price. That should make everyone happy.
Excepting, of course, those who feel they need more HD slots or those who want a G5 but can't afford more than $350 or those who want a G5 upgrade for their SE30 for $50.
It will not also satisfy those who must have a 20GHz G7/VMX3 laptop. With a folding 42" OLED screen, synthetic 7.1 virtual speakers, an iNewton PDA, ATSC HD video iChat camera, a universal cel phone and an Inmarsat uplink/downlink. That fits in your pocket. For $350. To play moronic games and to watch bad porn.
why the **** would you have to? it's these weak ass arguments that just make no sense at all.
Applenut... First rule of engineering: Everything is about tradeoffs. Nuf said.
I have to agree with hmurchison , Outsider, shawk, Airsluf and Bancho on this one.. Complaining about Apple not providing room for another drive is silly.
Anyone with a clue will store their stuff, be it important projects or simple archival material to some *external* solution.
Bancho writes:
Quote:
Storing everything local is a recipe for disaster, especially if your livelihood is riding on it.
Yep.
Zapchud writes:
Quote:
I believe (which of course means I have no facts to back it up, I'll resign my argument if someone could prove me wrong on this) there's enough people wanting at least a third expansion-bay to justify the added cost.
Definitely an accident of logic. Circumstances suggest that the small percentage of people who *believe* they need more than two drive bays should be considered the *exception* and not the rule.
The whole argument that Matsu and a few others attempt to put forth is loaded with circular reasoning. For instance, Zapchud's comment begs the question of *how* someone would *know* that there's enough people wanting *at least* a third expansion-bay to justify the added cost. He attempts to answer the question by suggesting we ask this small percentage of people (which is obviously how he developed his *feeling*) that desire it. It's like using your own watch to set that very same watch. Keep in mind that Apple can always release a more powerful desktop in the future with additional capacity.
When these people attempt to argue the point, they themselves can usually be placed directly in the center of that argument, basing it entirely on their beliefs and from their perspective relative to themselves. This is relativism and confabulation.
What they do is place themselves at the center. Just read the following statement as an example:
Quote:
I, as many others, like to have options, and having only 2 bays of expansion (1 free) removes options for me. I must choose the largest possible harddrive, because if I choose the smaller one, I'll need a 3rd disk to have sufficient amounts of space, as I plan to have this machine for more than one year. If I had 3 bays +, I'd be able to choose cheaper and smaller disks for now, and upgrade steadily with some not-so-huge disks. With two, I must purchase two big ones, or throw one out when I want to upgrade - disadvantage.
Notice anything? The use of "I" and *me* can be found salted throughout. This individual makes a common mistake that a lot of others tend to make. Hell, I make them from time to time. Anyway, replace "I" and "me" with "most" or "most people". That is what they are attempting to project.
hmurchison gets it. He understands the tradeoffs...
He writes:
Quote:
Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
Spot on.
Quote:
You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
Trap indeed since there is no basis for an actual argument. Others would call it trolling, but I believe Matsu *may* have had good intentions, even if he was projecting a high level of relativism. People like this can't find any significant faults, so they tend to make mountains out of mole hills and hope that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Matsu writes:
Quote:
Their computer setup makes sense to them, it works, so why should they have to change it?
This is such a weak argument..Sheesh! It's all that they know and all they are comfortible with, so why bother looking into more cost effective solutions; especially when they just might exist? Hey, when they go out of business because their competition passed them by maybe they can blame Apple for that... "Damn, if Apple had only offered us a third drive bay...."
In short, the whole argument regarding more drive bays is completely bogus since more than enough options exist. Look at the G5 people. It's amazing. Apple has designed a REALLY SWEET system.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
If more HD bays means a taller/bigger box, I wouldn't want it. Besides external storage is my selected option these days, just carry my HD between two computers and with my PB I get to have a backup option anyplace I'm at.
The real argument is when are they going to get smaller faster HD's out at a reasonable price.
With the 970/G5's reported speeds and FSB issues resolved, memory and HD speeds are the bottleneck now. Why bitch at Apple for the problems of others. At least Appple now has this problem that also has plagued x86 users.
Start emailing the HD/memory researchers and manufacturers instead of bitchin at Apple in Forums discussing Future Hardware. In this context the bitchin is equivalent to trolling in that it is meant to initiate responses with regard to Apple's design when it is not their fault that they can't get a fast 250GB HD that is 1" x 2" in size.
All the arguments beingg made about what constitutes a "pro" are just wet dreams about external storage and VERY high end applications. Pro does nt neccessarily mean high end.
What we're talking about here is a failure by Apple to provide 50 cents worth of connectors and a little more thought to the layout of the case just as it is. Just dumb, the rest is pure apology and nothing more. IDE RAID is DIRT CHEAP and FAST. Even if you aren't using any RAID, the whole point of a tower is to drop in additional drives without throwing away the old stuff. Saving money isn't a crime, nor is it anti-pro. You're narrow views of professional markets are laughable. Why not offer a machie with a broader appeal? It can only help the bottom line.
You say it isn't used.
I say it is.
You counter that, "Well, it isn't used by pros."
I show you that it is.
You say that's not the best way.
I tell you: Who gives a flying fvck? Either that it's the best way, or whether consumers, prosumers, college kids, or pros, use it?
Make it useable by all. NOT if doing so adds untowards cost or complexity to the machine. But you know from looking at the case that we're talking the most minimal of design tweaks. That's what makes it so offensive, that it would have been so easy ad cheap to do right, right from the start and thy chose not to.
But I guess anyone that points out Apple' deficiencies is "pro" enough. laughable. Contrary to popular belief, you can like Apple without excusing every bad decision that they make.
Matsu, I agree with you on the case design issue, but why do you continue to press it in this thread? For the others, I disagree with you because I believe the G5 case should accomodate more drive space, but why do you continue to press it in this thread?
The only frightening thing I've read on this thread so far is that some people suggest that the dual 2.0's price could be increased to accomodate the alleged dual 1.8 in the line. That would be insane and the fact that it was even suggested as a possible solution is troubling. The prices are plenty high enough. If anything there is room to lower prices on the single processor configs. I wouldn't expect to see any changes in price before the machines start shipping though.
As for the case issue I am sure that the case satisfies the widest audience as it is (not everyone obviously but the widest audience). Apple will probably evolve the design but I wouldn't expect a revolutionary change very soon. I am sure some actually have a need for extra storage internally but I really think it's not the greatest solution in most regards. If it were up to me I'd get a G5 dual and look for a recent MDD tower and pack it with drives for external storage. Heck, the single GHz model could be ideal. In a pinch you could always use it as backup if the primary machine craps out.
What I do not want to see is a tower which rivals some of my furniture in sheer mass. I can deal with external drives and I use firewire for speed and portability. The firewire drives I use are not even visible on my desk. I have them tucked up on a shelf completely out of sight.
Personally, I'm still saving my pennies. I think by Christmas or thereabouts I may have the change to look at what duals Apple is offering.
The G5 is already taller than the existing case. I don't want it any taller and I don't want to run RAID. I'd like two HD so that one can be uesd for backup.
The only frightening thing I've read on this thread so far is that some people suggest that the dual 2.0's price could be increased to accomodate the alleged dual 1.8 in the line. That would be insane and the fact that it was even suggested as a possible solution is troubling. The prices are plenty high enough. If anything there is room to lower prices on the single processor configs. I wouldn't expect to see any changes in price before the machines start shipping though.
There isn't anything insane about it. In fact it is very logical and is done all the time in many industries whenever demand greatly exceeds supply.
Someone else said it would be a grave mistake to increase the price, but for something to be a grave mistake there have to be grave consequences. I see no significant adverse consequences for Apple in this case. What will Mac fans do, give up on the chance of owning the fastest personal computer in the world? Yeah, like that is going to happen. Some people will complain a lot on AI, but they will order a dual G5 anyways.
I put myself in the centre, because I know alot of people personally like myself, that'd most definetely cram 3 or more harddrives in the box. External storage is not even considered, except for putting the disks in a fileserver, (which would be the Xserve or Xserve RAID, for example) but preferably not. Most of these are currently PC guys for now. They're not professionals, using their main machine to make a living, but they are prosumers. Maybe we are exeptions all of us...
This is my last post on the expansion-bay subject in this thread
If the demand for the DP 2.0 far outstrip the supply while the sales of the SP 1.6/1.8 are lackluster it would be a good thing for Apples bottom line to add a DP 1.8. If on the other hand SP sales are good there is little reason to change the lineup.
One critical paramenter will be the performance of the G5s compared to the G4. If the leap from dual G4s (867-1000-1250-1420) to the SP G5 is very big they will sell very well. If on the other hand only the DP 2 is a really much faster than the DP 1.42 G4, then it is easy to think that many dual G4 owners will wait for dual G5s so in that case having dual 1.8 in the wings would do good for Apples current and next quarter. We will know this in a week or two
The whole point is that if they introduce a 1.8GHz DP machine they will NEED to lower prices on the 2 lower end SP machines. 1.8GHz SP for $2199 and take the Super Drive out of the 1.6 and lower it to $1599 For God sakes. There's the trade off. The justification for the high price of the 1.6 in the apple boardroom is it has a SuperDrive. Then get rid of it.
I don't think the supply and demand argument is entirely valid here. The supply of ALL configs at this moment is effectively zero so should they bump the price of all the configs to help control demand? I think that the only given here is that the one system with dual processors has proven most popular.
I'd like to see what sort of demand there would be if each system offered dual processors right now with all other options left alone. I am positive you'd see strengthened demand for all models.
The only thing bumping the price of the sole dual machine would do it spike short term profit while inspiring longer term ill will. It will hurt more in the long run. The machine was priced with appropriate profit figured in from the start.
Comments
1) When IBM presented his next processor, the 970, in the microprocessor forum, he said that the chip will first scale at 1,8 ghz. Some months later many rumors said that IBM have pretty good yields , and even in some case chips able to clock at 2,5 ghz.
They announced 2 ghz : it's means that they where confident with their fabbing process. The only trouble they get, is that people ordered to many dual, and thus some delay on this model is possible, but there is no chance as downclock like Mot with the G4 500. Too much sucess for the 2 GHZ chip is different from inaptitude to fab them.
2) Bringing a dual 1,8 ghz in the market, before the G5 start shipping, will be a marketing error : it will piss off many people, me included. They should go dual later, but not in september.
They haven't even started shipping the lowest-end machines yet, and people still have plenty of time to reconsider a new option and replace their orders.
I, for one, would be very happy if they release a 1.8GHz DP model very soon.
Originally posted by Zapchud
Why will it piss you off, Powerdoc?
They haven't even started shipping the lowest-end machines yet, and people still have plenty of time to reconsider a new option and replace their orders.
I, for one, would be very happy if they release a 1.8GHz DP model very soon.
It will piss me off, because i have already pre-ordered my G5. If they have announced a dual 1,8, perhaps i will have taken it (depending on the prize).
So the message will be, : dear Apple buyers of the first hour, you where stupid enought to have pre-ordered quickly our products, if you where more intelligent you would have waited and thus have more choice. The next time, don't pre-order any new computer from Apple.
Excepting, of course, those who feel they need more HD slots or those who want a G5 but can't afford more than $350 or those who want a G5 upgrade for their SE30 for $50.
It will not also satisfy those who must have a 20GHz G7/VMX3 laptop. With a folding 42" OLED screen, synthetic 7.1 virtual speakers, an iNewton PDA, ATSC HD video iChat camera, a universal cel phone and an Inmarsat uplink/downlink. That fits in your pocket. For $350. To play moronic games and to watch bad porn.
Originally posted by shawk
Perhaps they will just ship a dual 1.8GHz instead of the single 1.8GHZ for the same price. That should make everyone happy.
E
I will be even ready to kiss an Apple official if they done such a thing. But don't you think september is too early for Santa Klaus ?
Originally posted by Powerdoc
The next time, don't pre-order any new computer from Apple.
but can't you cancel your pre-order and change to something else before they ship without penalty?
why the **** would you have to? it's these weak ass arguments that just make no sense at all.
Applenut... First rule of engineering: Everything is about tradeoffs. Nuf said.
I have to agree with hmurchison , Outsider, shawk, Airsluf and Bancho on this one.. Complaining about Apple not providing room for another drive is silly.
Anyone with a clue will store their stuff, be it important projects or simple archival material to some *external* solution.
Bancho writes:
Storing everything local is a recipe for disaster, especially if your livelihood is riding on it.
Yep.
Zapchud writes:
I believe (which of course means I have no facts to back it up, I'll resign my argument if someone could prove me wrong on this) there's enough people wanting at least a third expansion-bay to justify the added cost.
Definitely an accident of logic. Circumstances suggest that the small percentage of people who *believe* they need more than two drive bays should be considered the *exception* and not the rule.
The whole argument that Matsu and a few others attempt to put forth is loaded with circular reasoning. For instance, Zapchud's comment begs the question of *how* someone would *know* that there's enough people wanting *at least* a third expansion-bay to justify the added cost. He attempts to answer the question by suggesting we ask this small percentage of people (which is obviously how he developed his *feeling*) that desire it. It's like using your own watch to set that very same watch. Keep in mind that Apple can always release a more powerful desktop in the future with additional capacity.
When these people attempt to argue the point, they themselves can usually be placed directly in the center of that argument, basing it entirely on their beliefs and from their perspective relative to themselves. This is relativism and confabulation.
What they do is place themselves at the center. Just read the following statement as an example:
I, as many others, like to have options, and having only 2 bays of expansion (1 free) removes options for me. I must choose the largest possible harddrive, because if I choose the smaller one, I'll need a 3rd disk to have sufficient amounts of space, as I plan to have this machine for more than one year. If I had 3 bays +, I'd be able to choose cheaper and smaller disks for now, and upgrade steadily with some not-so-huge disks. With two, I must purchase two big ones, or throw one out when I want to upgrade - disadvantage.
Notice anything? The use of "I" and *me* can be found salted throughout. This individual makes a common mistake that a lot of others tend to make. Hell, I make them from time to time. Anyway, replace "I" and "me" with "most" or "most people". That is what they are attempting to project.
hmurchison gets it. He understands the tradeoffs...
He writes:
Apple is limiting you because they value Reliability as paramount over Internal Drive bays. What? You don't think the PS replacement Apple did for the MDD machines was expensive? We are moving beyond G4s which worked for the Desktop and Embedded space to the 970s which are strictly Desktop. Intel's Prescott, even at 90nm, will Dissipate almost 100 watts! If Apple doesn't design the G5 case right from the get go then it limits their options for Processors later. FW drives are used by DAW users and Final Cut Pro users just fine. Internal Storage is nice but it's nowhere near as portable as External and Portability is important to many Content Creators.
Spot on.
You just walked into the same trap that Matsu did. There are no limitations to expansion. You can have more storage connected to your Powermac. The only limitation is Internal Storage and most Pros don't sweat that because they have access to large external drives or Network storage.
Trap indeed since there is no basis for an actual argument. Others would call it trolling, but I believe Matsu *may* have had good intentions, even if he was projecting a high level of relativism. People like this can't find any significant faults, so they tend to make mountains out of mole hills and hope that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Matsu writes:
Their computer setup makes sense to them, it works, so why should they have to change it?
This is such a weak argument..Sheesh! It's all that they know and all they are comfortible with, so why bother looking into more cost effective solutions; especially when they just might exist? Hey, when they go out of business because their competition passed them by maybe they can blame Apple for that... "Damn, if Apple had only offered us a third drive bay...."
In short, the whole argument regarding more drive bays is completely bogus since more than enough options exist. Look at the G5 people. It's amazing. Apple has designed a REALLY SWEET system.
--
Ed
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
The real argument is when are they going to get smaller faster HD's out at a reasonable price.
With the 970/G5's reported speeds and FSB issues resolved, memory and HD speeds are the bottleneck now. Why bitch at Apple for the problems of others. At least Appple now has this problem that also has plagued x86 users.
Start emailing the HD/memory researchers and manufacturers instead of bitchin at Apple in Forums discussing Future Hardware. In this context the bitchin is equivalent to trolling in that it is meant to initiate responses with regard to Apple's design when it is not their fault that they can't get a fast 250GB HD that is 1" x 2" in size.
Originally posted by rok
but can't you cancel your pre-order and change to something else before they ship without penalty?
Good question, but can i change for something else that isn't already announced ?
What we're talking about here is a failure by Apple to provide 50 cents worth of connectors and a little more thought to the layout of the case just as it is. Just dumb, the rest is pure apology and nothing more. IDE RAID is DIRT CHEAP and FAST. Even if you aren't using any RAID, the whole point of a tower is to drop in additional drives without throwing away the old stuff. Saving money isn't a crime, nor is it anti-pro. You're narrow views of professional markets are laughable. Why not offer a machie with a broader appeal? It can only help the bottom line.
You say it isn't used.
I say it is.
You counter that, "Well, it isn't used by pros."
I show you that it is.
You say that's not the best way.
I tell you: Who gives a flying fvck? Either that it's the best way, or whether consumers, prosumers, college kids, or pros, use it?
Make it useable by all. NOT if doing so adds untowards cost or complexity to the machine. But you know from looking at the case that we're talking the most minimal of design tweaks. That's what makes it so offensive, that it would have been so easy ad cheap to do right, right from the start and thy chose not to.
But I guess anyone that points out Apple' deficiencies is "pro" enough. laughable. Contrary to popular belief, you can like Apple without excusing every bad decision that they make.
Give me a Dual 1.8 GHZ machine.
As for the case issue I am sure that the case satisfies the widest audience as it is (not everyone obviously but the widest audience). Apple will probably evolve the design but I wouldn't expect a revolutionary change very soon. I am sure some actually have a need for extra storage internally but I really think it's not the greatest solution in most regards. If it were up to me I'd get a G5 dual and look for a recent MDD tower and pack it with drives for external storage. Heck, the single GHz model could be ideal. In a pinch you could always use it as backup if the primary machine craps out.
What I do not want to see is a tower which rivals some of my furniture in sheer mass. I can deal with external drives and I use firewire for speed and portability. The firewire drives I use are not even visible on my desk. I have them tucked up on a shelf completely out of sight.
Personally, I'm still saving my pennies. I think by Christmas or thereabouts I may have the change to look at what duals Apple is offering.
Originally posted by Bancho
The only frightening thing I've read on this thread so far is that some people suggest that the dual 2.0's price could be increased to accomodate the alleged dual 1.8 in the line. That would be insane and the fact that it was even suggested as a possible solution is troubling. The prices are plenty high enough. If anything there is room to lower prices on the single processor configs. I wouldn't expect to see any changes in price before the machines start shipping though.
There isn't anything insane about it. In fact it is very logical and is done all the time in many industries whenever demand greatly exceeds supply.
Someone else said it would be a grave mistake to increase the price, but for something to be a grave mistake there have to be grave consequences. I see no significant adverse consequences for Apple in this case. What will Mac fans do, give up on the chance of owning the fastest personal computer in the world? Yeah, like that is going to happen. Some people will complain a lot on AI, but they will order a dual G5 anyways.
I put myself in the centre, because I know alot of people personally like myself, that'd most definetely cram 3 or more harddrives in the box. External storage is not even considered, except for putting the disks in a fileserver, (which would be the Xserve or Xserve RAID, for example) but preferably not. Most of these are currently PC guys for now. They're not professionals, using their main machine to make a living, but they are prosumers. Maybe we are exeptions all of us...
This is my last post on the expansion-bay subject in this thread
One critical paramenter will be the performance of the G5s compared to the G4. If the leap from dual G4s (867-1000-1250-1420) to the SP G5 is very big they will sell very well. If on the other hand only the DP 2 is a really much faster than the DP 1.42 G4, then it is easy to think that many dual G4 owners will wait for dual G5s so in that case having dual 1.8 in the wings would do good for Apples current and next quarter. We will know this in a week or two
I'd like to see what sort of demand there would be if each system offered dual processors right now with all other options left alone. I am positive you'd see strengthened demand for all models.
The only thing bumping the price of the sole dual machine would do it spike short term profit while inspiring longer term ill will. It will hurt more in the long run. The machine was priced with appropriate profit figured in from the start.