My Body My Choice- For men too..

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Men's Reproductive Choice



The premise:



On January 22, 1973, the United States Supreme Court eliminated a checkerboard of state laws on reproductive freedom and guaranteed American women choice throughout the country. Thirty years later, American men are still waiting for the same right.



Women participate in ending their parental rights via abortion, adoption or in some states even abandonment within the first couple months after the pregnancy. All with absolutely no consequences for her actions.



We are also told that abortion is needed for women because there is no foolproof method of birth control and women shouldn't be forced to have a child if they do not wish one, nor subject their body to a pregnancy they don't desire.



Why should men, if they don't so desire be subjected to 18 years of child support demands if they didn't even desire the child in the first place? Certainly that is a lot longer than 10 months of pregnancy. Likewise if women shouldn't be forced to suffer for imperfect birth-control why should men?



Do you promote true equality?



Nick
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 381
    chychchych Posts: 860member
    Apples and Oranges...
  • Reply 2 of 381
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Do you promote true equality?



    Yes. I say men should be able to abort any fetuses inside their bodies.
  • Reply 3 of 381
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Yes. I say men should be able to abort any fetuses inside their bodies.



    Very cute answer. Definately deserved a smilie.



    Women are also allowed to relinquish their paternal rights outside of the body as well with adoption and abandonment.



    Do you support the same rights for men?



    Nick
  • Reply 4 of 381
    shawnshawn Posts: 32member
    Here is exactly what's wrong with this premise:



    Quote:

    Quoted from i"feminists".net:

    Certainly nobody should be able to dictate to a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, thus the feminist slogan "My Body, My Choice." Yet our current laws allow a woman to dictate to a man what to do with his body. The average American father works a 51-hour work week, one of the longest in the industrialized world. It is men, overwhelmingly, who do our society's hazardous and most strenuous jobs, and nearly 50 American workers--mostly men--are injured every minute of the 40-hour work week. Can anybody deny that the sacrifices required to pay 18 years of child support take a heavy toll on a man's body, too? Where's his choice?



    The author compares forcing a woman to have a baby with forcing men to work in industrialized labor (or other hazardous and "strenuous" jobs.) He reasons that if you cannot do the former, you should certainly not do the latter. But here's the catch (where his logic breaks down): Men don't have to work to pay child support (if they have the money). Men don't have to work hazardous and "strenuous" jobs to pay child support. Any decent paying job will do.. maybe even jobs men LIKE. Who woulda thought? But women MUST have a baby if her choice is revoked. So a woman is TOLD exactly what to do with her body, while a man is not.



    Apples and Oranges.



    On another note: Since it's completely unlikely that a court will strike down the payment of child support by men, this exercise in spin is just another way of saying abortion should be illegal.
  • Reply 5 of 381
    giaguaragiaguara Posts: 2,724member
    trumptman, many many of the cases a woman ends to abort is not her _liberally_ own will or choise but more the will of her man / boyfriend / olover etc. of course there are those dummies that want to get money of a rich guy, thus get pregnant and force him to marry (and later divorce, or produce more kids to "save the marriage".



    a man can for sure do more about the subject than just rant. a few suggestions: 1) don't have sex with women that are between 10 and 50 years old. 2) use a condom when you f*ck. 3) do a vasectomy. if you do, no way you'll find any women who want your money for the next 40 years. oh, maybe you'll still "need to" reproduce some brats one day so you have to eliminate the last of these suggestions ...







    oh - i remember a movie where arnold schwarnegger was pregnant. hilarious. i said after seeing that that when that'll be technically possible, i'll have some kids. heh. i guess it is as the men want the abort rights ...
  • Reply 6 of 381
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    You know if a father ever went into family court and said, "Your honor I cannot take care of these kids. I am here to terminate my parental rights". He'd be tossed in jail.
  • Reply 7 of 381
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Equality...yeah.



    Well, if BOTH the man and woman decided to have sex, BOTH should have the legal right to deal with the consequences one way or the other.



    I'll let you take it from there, because it only gets exponentially more complicated after that.
  • Reply 8 of 381
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Shawn

    Here is exactly what's wrong with this premise:







    The author compares forcing a woman to have a baby with forcing men to work in industrialized labor (or other hazardous and "strenuous" jobs.) He reasons that if you cannot do the former, you should certainly not do the latter. But here's the catch (where his logic breaks down): Men don't have to work to pay child support (if they have the money). Men don't have to work hazardous and "strenuous" jobs to pay child support. Any decent paying job will do.. maybe even jobs men LIKE. Who woulda thought? But women MUST have a baby if her choice is revoked. So a woman is TOLD exactly what to do with her body, while a man is not.



    Apples and Oranges.



    On another note: Since it's completely unlikely that a court will strike down the payment of child support by men, this exercise in spin is just another way of saying abortion should be illegal.




    Actually he simply compares it to support in general. From the article.



    Quote:

    Yet if she decides she wants the child, she can demand 18 years of child support from the father, and he has no choice in the matter. When it comes to reproduction, in America today women have rights and men merely have responsibilities.



    Likewise your own logic breaks down badly because a woman is not TOLD to become pregnant. Thus she is not told what to do with her body. However a man will be TOLD by a quote to pay child support, regardless of the type of job he works out with threats of jail time if he fails.



    The issue stands, when women have sex, they have rights. When men have sex they only have responsibilities and no rights.



    Nick
  • Reply 9 of 381
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Responsibility...yeah.



    When a woman makes the CHOICE to have sex, she can also then have the CHOICE to shirk her RESPONSIBILITY to her unborn child and abort it.



    When a man makes the CHOICE to have sex, he is forced to have RESPONSIBILITY if the woman makes the CHOICE to keep the child.



    When a woman makes the CHOICE to abort her unborn child, the father has NO CHOICE in the matter. While he may be willing to exercise RESPONSIBILITY in raising the child, he has no legal right to save the life of his unborn child.



    Something is wrong with this picture, isn't it?
  • Reply 10 of 381
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,230member
    Why this is even a debate is foolish.



    Yes I agree with Women. It's "their" bodies. Let them do what they must even if that means aborting a child that the Father wants dearly.



    However on the flipside. A potential "Father" should be able to opt out if he decides that having a child is not in "his" best interests.



    Having a child is a joint effort and the responsibility is shared. Men working strenuous jobs to pay child suppor is auxillary to the real issue which is there is a clear imbalance of rights between Men and Women on this issue. This imbalance does not have to exist.



    I have a Step Father that I care for. Why do people automatically assume that a Father has to be Biological. This potentially fosters and unwillingness for Men to bond with a child that isn't theirs.



    The responsibility to change this rests with Men. However we don't unify and correct this problem. There is a social stigma about Men who impregnate and run and I feel that while many of us may agree. We keep quiet about it for fear of coming off as a supporter of Men who wish to shirk their duties.
  • Reply 11 of 381
    giaguaragiaguara Posts: 2,724member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by CosmoNut

    When a man makes the CHOICE to have sex, he is forced to have RESPONSIBILITY if the woman makes the CHOICE to keep the child.



    If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age?
  • Reply 12 of 381
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Women are also allowed to relinquish their paternal rights outside of the body as well with adoption and abandonment.



    Do you support the same rights for men?



    Nick




    Abandonment? I'm not sure what rights a women has in the case of abandonment. Mostly I've read about women going to jail because of it. That doesn't seem like a 'right' in the sense you're discussing.



    What rights do women have in the case of adoption that men don't have?



    Lastly, the courts have learned over time that men are worse parents than women. Should they be allowed to take that into consideration? Of the two cases closest to me the courts have ruled once for the mom and once for the day (two seperate cases for two seperate sets of parents and kids.) In both cases the court ruled correctly in my opinion. I'm only saying that the evidence I've seen is that the courts look at individual cases and rule accordingly and that in my experience have been accurate.
  • Reply 13 of 381
    giaguaragiaguara Posts: 2,724member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    The issue stands, when women have sex, they have rights. When men have sex they only have responsibilities and no rights.



    Excuse me?
  • Reply 14 of 381
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Why this is even a debate is foolish.



    Yes I agree with Women. It's "their" bodies. Let them do what they must even if that means aborting a child that the Father wants dearly.



    However on the flipside. A potential "Father" should be able to opt out if he decides that having a child is not in "his" best interests.



    Having a child is a joint effort and the responsibility is shared. Men working strenuous jobs to pay child suppor is auxillary to the real issue which is there is a clear imbalance of rights between Men and Women on this issue. This imbalance does not have to exist.



    I have a Step Father that I care for. Why do people automatically assume that a Father has to be Biological. This potentially fosters and unwillingness for Men to bond with a child that isn't theirs.



    The responsibility to change this rests with Men. However we don't unify and correct this problem. There is a social stigma about Men who impregnate and run and I feel that while many of us may agree. We keep quiet about it for fear of coming off as a supporter of Men who wish to shirk their duties.




    However we really should discuss that stigma as well. Women who slept around before they were married were "sluts" or "easy." Now they are just sexually liberated. If a man doesn't want to be a parent it shouldn't be a stigma.



    Nick
  • Reply 15 of 381
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Giaguara

    Excuse me?



    If a man has sex, what are his rights with regard to terminating parental rights?



    Nick
  • Reply 16 of 381
    giaguaragiaguara Posts: 2,724member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    If a man has sex, what are his rights with regard to terminating parental rights?



    Nick




    Don't have unprotecterd sex so nobody can come to rant to you about any parental rights.
  • Reply 17 of 381
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,230member
    Quote:

    If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age



    Why put the onus on Men? Women share this very same responsibility yet they are given a "Get out of Parenting" pass. Why not us??



    Quote:

    Lastly, the courts have learned over time that men are worse parents than women



    This is totally irrelevant. The crux of this issue is not who is the best parent but who should be able to absolve themselves of being a Parent. Women have that right. Men don't. End of story.



    Quote:

    Don't have unprotecterd sex so nobody can come to rant to you about any parental rights.



    Are you really this ignorant? I know you feel it's some Noble gesture for a Man to owe up to his responsibilty but the facts are we cannot move forwared as a society based on equality if such imbalance exist. What is so wrong in the Country that we have completely different sets of rules for the genders? Period and point blank Women have JUST as much responsibily as Men regarding reproduction yet they have the control and Men do not. They too can abstain from sex "G"
  • Reply 18 of 381
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    The other thing that gets me about all these issues is that pro-abortionists think that women should be able to have it both ways. My argument:
    • Men and women alike are not allowed by law to use drugs such as cocaine, heroine, marijuana, etc.

    • Men and women alike are not allowed to attempt suicide without consequences.

    • Men and women alike, in most states, aren't legally allowed to ride in a vehicle without a seat belt or on a motorcycle without a helmet.

    In each of the examples above, the law has limited what you are allowed to do with/to your own body. In each of those cases, the law has dictated that you are not allowed to CHOOSE to do that which puts your body in harms way, and that if you do, you will suffer the consequences under the law. I don't see how being pregnant can be considered that much different under the law. The law could state that women are not allowed to do potential damage to their own body and the unborn child by requiring that women go full term and deliver the baby. If the woman doesn't want the baby, it would then be the law's responsibility to find an adoptive home for the child...or maybe even the child would become the responsibility of the father if he is so willing.



    I guess what I'm saying is that in the legal system, people must take RESPONSIBILITY for CHOICES that they make. You kill a person, you get punished. If you injure someone in a car accident by driving drunk, you get punished. When a woman chooses to have sex, she must understand that pregancy may be a consequence that follows. Murderers cannot unkill their victim after their choice is made. Drunk drivers cannot uninjure someone after they get behind the wheel. So why should a woman be allowed to unimpregnate herself by killing an unborn child after she chose to have sex?



    EDIT: Or here's an idea! Let's outlaw sex for women who are registered as not allowed to be impregnated. After all, abstinence is the only way to guarantee that someone won't get pregnant or contract an STD. So that's the answer: Either make sex or abortion illegal. Which one should we pick? \
  • Reply 19 of 381
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Giaguara

    If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age?



    Is it so difficult for women to remember a little pill or to say no?



    Likewise who would get a vasectomy at such an early age?!? Would you have 17-18 year olds getting them?



    Nick
  • Reply 20 of 381
    giaguaragiaguara Posts: 2,724member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Why put the onus on Men? Women share this very same responsibility yet they are given a "Get out of Parenting" pass. Why not us??

    [...]

    Are you really this ignorant? I know you feel it's some Noble gesture for a Man to owe up to his responsibilty but the facts are we cannot move forwared as a society based on equality if such imbalance exist. What is so wrong in the Country that we have completely different sets of rules for the genders? Period and point blank Women have JUST as much responsibily as Men regarding reproduction yet they have the control and Men do not. They too can abstain from sex "G"




    1) I have not said the responsability is men's. In the first hand, it's the woman's FAULT if she gets pregnant (unless raped). But it's not only her. Never trust a woman who says she's on pill, she can simply "forget" it.



    How about requesting a signature on a piece of paper before every sexual intercourse with a woman stating that you two use the xx and yy methods of protection (e.g. the pill and the condom), and in case of a potential failure of both / all methods, she has no rights for any kind of damage, including pregnancy?



    2) I have not said it's all men's responsabilities or noble gestures, there aren't any noble men or women... How many countries are there in this world where a woman can not get an abort even if she was raped? And it's not just the 3rd world countries but even Ireland... At least I hope in all those countries the women are allowed to get the money out of the rapists... but like the money would in those cases bring back the dignity and life (the life that she had before having kids)?



    As said, in normal case if a woman finds herself pregnant it's her own fault, even if she's a moron.
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