<strong>The size benefit was a fluke of component costs. Some people recognized this and jumped on it, but that ain't why they made a 12, they made it to be cheap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They also made it to be easily carried by elementary school students, and to fit on their desks.
There's no question that a cheap 14" iBook would be a strong seller, because of the size and purchasing power of the nearsighted adult demographic. But don't forget one of the iBook's critical markets: Students. Young students. That's why the cheap model is also the small one.
As far as which PCs students buy, again, most small PC notebooks are so hopelessly compromised that there's no real choice in the matter. The iBook does not suffer from this problem.
Well, the iBook should be getting the Gobi soon and after that the next G3 supports duals. Not saying the iBook will get duals, but that the G3 has plenty of leg.
This would be a the natural evolution of the ibook. I hear laptops with tablet abilities are hitting their sales target already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
wow, sales targets set to what? a hundred? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful. By the way, I own a 12" iBook and I really enjoy it. But if I had the option to buy a 15" at the same price point as is the case in the PC world, I would have done so in a heartbeat. The smaller notebook has one enduring advantage over the larger besides price. It has a far superior screen. Sdid by side, there is no comparison. The 12" is much brighter. So much so that it ofsets the size advantage of the larger screen. Apple crippled the 14" probably on purpose. They made it heavier and bulkier than they had to, and they compromised on screen quality as well as pricing it way too high. The 14" without the compromises would be the perfect comsumer laptop, if not still a little small for that market.
<strong>There should be a new forum, temporarily, called "Matsu's Opinion" and Matsu could post his opinion there without anyone being allowed to respond. That way he wouldn't have to keep repeating himself.
How many times have you said this about the 14" iBook, Matsu? I seem to recall at least two or three times other than this one. I'm not sure if I totally agree, but it seems reasonable.
Personally, if the 14" iBook cost the exact same as the 12", and it weighed the same, then I might have considered getting one instead of my 12". But this 12" has a smaller footprint too, making it easier to slip in my backpack... maybe if the 14" iBook went down in thickness too. I mean, the 15" PowerBook is thinner than the 12" one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
word up. I wouldn't trade my 12 incher for anything. It kicks a$$ and takes up no space and weighs nothing. matsu little soapbox speech is sounding a little tired...
<strong>Sorry Amorph, but I think Matsu is spot on.
Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful. By the way, I own a 12" iBook and I really enjoy it. But if I had the option to buy a 15" at the same price point as is the case in the PC world, I would have done so in a heartbeat. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
go and buy a windows laptop then. you will soon learn (within seconds of opening the box) that you have been duped. you have been fooled. you saw all these laptops with 14, 15, 16 inch screeens for cheap and acted rashly. Now you find out most dont have firewire. now you find out every laptop that has firewire has 4-pin firewire (no charging your win-iPod or using your new zip without a power adapter). now you find out many have shared graphics memory. now you find out you only get 90 minutes of battery life. now you find out it ONLY works with winXP (no win98, nothing else). now you find out it weighs 7-9lbs. Now you find your power adapter is as big as a babys head and just as hot! Now you find out you dont get iTunes. Now you find out you dont get iMovie. Now you find out you dont get iPhoto. Now you find out what a "mushy" keyboard feels like.
Stop me if I repeat myself.
The windows laptop market looks awesome IF you take all the features available on the market and make a COMPOSITE laptop in your HEAD... There just aren't any manufacturers in that segment that can put it all together for anything less than 7lb minimum and at a HIGHER cost than apples laptops.
Unfortunately people in that world dont know what its like to have EVERYTHING in a sub-5lb laptop with a beautiful 12" screen and 4 honest hours of battery life. There is no comprimise with an iBook. As mentioned in an earlier post, the iBook is the best deal apple has going.
there is no more of a "useful" laptop on the market if you consider the price.
Apple will always have a 12" iBook, and I think you can take that to the bank. Sure its great for young students, but don't forget how important design is to young adults all over the world, perhaps more so outside of the U.S. (read: Japan). And at the current 14" form factor, I don't think the iBook will be up for any design awards, and isn't the "must have" for Japanese schoolgirls. But the 12" is.
Gar said one day:
"And price targets of what, a hundred?"
lol. man do i hate convertible tablets. But if anyone could get it right, we all know who would.
Oh yeah. Almost forgot. I'm in college. And all these students with 15" Dells and hp's are losers. You should see them try to fit them on our tinnnny desks. Plus theyre really awkward and distracting. I've had more than one professor demand to ask a student what they were doing on one of these "desktop replacements," and I think its because these machines are just so *invasive* profs. think you're using Messenger or something. But you know what? The 12" iBook, or those Sony sub-notes, accomplish their in-class functions perfectly, and I think its because 1) the student can still see over the screen at the teacher and 2) they have room on their desk for other stuff. And oh yeah again- the students with the 15" dells and hp's are total losers and they smell bad. lol seriously this one in front of me actually does! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Now you find your power adapter is as big as a babys head and just as hot!
I swear to god I just blew coffee all over my desk when I read this. I have a Dell laptop (which I replaced with an iBook for school) and the power adapter is the monster you make it out to be. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
My wife teaches at a local college and she wants a 12" ibook. I tried to talk her into a powerbook or a 14" ibook but she likes the fact that the 12" ibook is small, light and has a long battery life. I am trying to get her to look at the 12" powerbooks but all she says is 'Why? When the ibook will do everything I need." Now I believe there are lost of people that went with the 12" ibook for the reasons Matsu stated but there were prolly just as many that went with it because its small and light and does everything they need it to.
<strong>Sorry Amorph, but I think Matsu is spot on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nowhere did I disagree that a 14" at the 12"'s price point would outsell it. I wouldn't buy one, but I know the demand is there: Apple sells lots and lots of 14" iBooks even with the current premium.
The 12" is there for a specific reason, which I gave, and it's cheap (it even has its own, less expensive case) because the market it exists for (K-12 education) has become wildly cost-conscious. Apple will give up that model when they give up that market (i.e., not soon). Given that LCD cost increases with pixel density as well as glass size, I doubt the 12" LCD costs much less than the 14".
As for the backlight on the 14", it's bigger, so Apple had to choose between battery life and screen brightness. Battery life obviously won.
[quote]<strong>Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting, because somewhere along the way it became incredibly useful. The size and weight of the 12" model is just about perfect for a portable computer.
Another problem with PC laptops - they either have 14" or 15" screens with 1024x768 resolution (yes, I have seen XGA 15" ones), or sometimes they put UXGA (1600x1200) on the ones that are 15" or 16". Geez!
I suppose 1280x1024 would be perfect for a 15" or 16"... I think that's what they do on some.
Amorph, I know from experience that the 12" models are useful. I just happen to believe that those useful advantages are a bi-product, not the intent. Sometimes lack of options can make a product a huge success.
All in ones are an example of this phenomenon. I believe that the reason Apple has such success with them where other manufacturers don't is because in the small universe that is uniquely Apple, that is the only option for a consumer level computer with a monitor. If they were to release an inexpensive and upgradable unit, they would put the iMac out of business in a day. The 12" book just happens to be the only real option for price conscience Mac consumers. Naturally, people will find added benefits of a product that they essentially had no choice but to purchase.
I believe there are very good reasons why Apple does not offer the Notebook I described in my earlier post that have nothing to do with price. As long as Apple only offers the options they do, then the 12" will continue to be popular. But don't fool yourselves into believing that Apple has hit upon some new formula for consumer notebook screen sizes. They haven't.
<strong>Amorph, I know from experience that the 12" models are useful. I just happen to believe that those useful advantages are a bi-product, not the intent. Sometimes lack of options can make a product a huge success.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can believe that if you want, but given that your last sentence is pretty much the core thesis of Apple design all the way back to the original machines (and a core thesis of good industrial design, period), I don't think it's a coincidence at all.
The "lack of options" made the iMac a huge success, too.
[quote]<strong>I believe that the reason Apple has such success with them where other manufacturers don't is because in the small universe that is uniquely Apple, that is the only option for a consumer level computer with a monitor. If they were to release an inexpensive and upgradable unit, they would put the iMac out of business in a day.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're welcome to that belief, but my mom is still absolutely delighted with the way her CRT iMac vanishes into a corner of her desk and runs quietly. A good AIO has a lot of appeal in its own right.
As I've argued with Matsu, the reason towers outsell AIOs on the PC side is that PC AIOs all suck. So I don't consider the WinTel numbers relevant to the Mac market.
As for the 12" iBook, you still seem to ignore the core reason I gave for its existence, which has nothing to do with the needs of the general market.
When Apple replaces the 12 with an all 14" line-up weight and size willl not be much of an issue at all. It'll be 5.5lbs or less and smaller than the current 14, not quite as small a fooprint as the 12, but more than close enough, with longer battery life to boot, an easier on the eyes screen, longer battery life (which the 14 already sports), and more power/storage all around. When they do it, you will like it.
As for displays, 1024x768 on a 14 or 15" screen is conservative but rational. It doesn't hurt your work and only helps your eyes. The 14" iBooks I've seen seem to have screens every bit as good as the 12" iBooks, you're just reaching.
A 1280x1024 screen would look really really weird with it's nearly square 5:4 ratio. Mebbe, 1280x960, but I doubt it. 1152x864 would be perfect for a 14" screen. It's my preferred res for a 17" CRT and would only be a touch smaller on a 14" LCD
Personally I like that Apple seems to use resolutions that make sense ergonomically rather than ones that just fit a standard.
Hence numbers like 1680x1050 and 1440x900 and 1280x854. Not exactly standard numbers but square and a reasonable comprimise between screen real-estate and squinty eyes.
iBook will not get a superdrive or a G4 untill a much faster selection of chips becomes available.
See the DP867. Apple spots a deal and promptly removes it from the line-up. The writing is on the wall for the 12" iBook.
<strong>When Apple replaces the 12 with an all 14" line-up weight and size willl not be much of an issue at all. It'll be 5.5lbs or less and smaller than the current 14, not quite as small a fooprint as the 12, but more than close enough, with longer battery life to boot, an easier on the eyes screen, longer battery life (which the 14 already sports), and more power/storage all around. When they do it, you will like it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But not as much as the 12", which I still consider to be just about perfect.
On the other hand, the 12" TiBook isn't quite there yet.
[quote]<strong>Personally I like that Apple seems to use resolutions that make sense ergonomically rather than ones that just fit a standard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, and I expect that trend to continue.
[quote]<strong>See the DP867. Apple spots a deal and promptly removes it from the line-up. The writing is on the wall for the 12" iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There actually seem to be people who are happy with the replacement. Don't ask me why.
But I don't expect the 12" to go away. The 12" is about the size of a textbook. A 14" is took big to be easily carried by a child. The 12" iBook will go away when Apple no longer cares about education, or when they come up with something even better suited for children. The 14" model is for adults.
<strong>No, people get it for a cheap laptop. They want more for their money, they aren't road warriors, most would take the larger screen if it didn't cost more. Subnote buyers will get the little Al.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Being a student, and probably one in Apple's target market, I would hate it if they went all-14-inch. I see alot of iBooks on campus, and they're all 12-inch. Students usually want something very portable that will sit on a those crappy half-desks in lecture halls. The fourteen-inch is too unweildy. It also doesn't fit a backpack so nicely.
You may say that they should go for the Powerbook G4, then, but there is a considerable difference between $1,249 and $1,699.
The Micro Center here in KC has 12" 700 MHz iBooks (combo drive) for $799 right now. That's a GREAT deal. I bought one for an editor at my company. Sweet deal. Only 128 MB RAM, but that can be fixed easily.
It really seems like everyone thinks the ibooks will be updated before the 12" pb, and I just don't think that is the case. The ibooks were two months old when the 12" pbs were realeased. I would guess everything will be updated at once sometime between may (six months since the last ibook update) and MWNY (8.5 months).
Comments
<strong>The size benefit was a fluke of component costs. Some people recognized this and jumped on it, but that ain't why they made a 12, they made it to be cheap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They also made it to be easily carried by elementary school students, and to fit on their desks.
There's no question that a cheap 14" iBook would be a strong seller, because of the size and purchasing power of the nearsighted adult demographic.
As far as which PCs students buy, again, most small PC notebooks are so hopelessly compromised that there's no real choice in the matter. The iBook does not suffer from this problem.
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>
This would be a the natural evolution of the ibook. I hear laptops with tablet abilities are hitting their sales target already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
wow, sales targets set to what? a hundred? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
The iBook line still has the best price/performance of any Apple model, and they sell very well, so...iBooks should be around for quite some time!
Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful. By the way, I own a 12" iBook and I really enjoy it. But if I had the option to buy a 15" at the same price point as is the case in the PC world, I would have done so in a heartbeat. The smaller notebook has one enduring advantage over the larger besides price. It has a far superior screen. Sdid by side, there is no comparison. The 12" is much brighter. So much so that it ofsets the size advantage of the larger screen. Apple crippled the 14" probably on purpose. They made it heavier and bulkier than they had to, and they compromised on screen quality as well as pricing it way too high. The 14" without the compromises would be the perfect comsumer laptop, if not still a little small for that market.
<strong>There should be a new forum, temporarily, called "Matsu's Opinion" and Matsu could post his opinion there without anyone being allowed to respond. That way he wouldn't have to keep repeating himself.
How many times have you said this about the 14" iBook, Matsu? I seem to recall at least two or three times other than this one. I'm not sure if I totally agree, but it seems reasonable.
Personally, if the 14" iBook cost the exact same as the 12", and it weighed the same, then I might have considered getting one instead of my 12". But this 12" has a smaller footprint too, making it easier to slip in my backpack... maybe if the 14" iBook went down in thickness too. I mean, the 15" PowerBook is thinner than the 12" one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
word up. I wouldn't trade my 12 incher for anything. It kicks a$$ and takes up no space and weighs nothing. matsu little soapbox speech is sounding a little tired...
<strong>Sorry Amorph, but I think Matsu is spot on.
Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful. By the way, I own a 12" iBook and I really enjoy it. But if I had the option to buy a 15" at the same price point as is the case in the PC world, I would have done so in a heartbeat. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
go and buy a windows laptop then. you will soon learn (within seconds of opening the box) that you have been duped. you have been fooled. you saw all these laptops with 14, 15, 16 inch screeens for cheap and acted rashly. Now you find out most dont have firewire. now you find out every laptop that has firewire has 4-pin firewire (no charging your win-iPod or using your new zip without a power adapter). now you find out many have shared graphics memory. now you find out you only get 90 minutes of battery life. now you find out it ONLY works with winXP (no win98, nothing else). now you find out it weighs 7-9lbs. Now you find your power adapter is as big as a babys head and just as hot! Now you find out you dont get iTunes. Now you find out you dont get iMovie. Now you find out you dont get iPhoto. Now you find out what a "mushy" keyboard feels like.
Stop me if I repeat myself.
The windows laptop market looks awesome IF you take all the features available on the market and make a COMPOSITE laptop in your HEAD... There just aren't any manufacturers in that segment that can put it all together for anything less than 7lb minimum and at a HIGHER cost than apples laptops.
Unfortunately people in that world dont know what its like to have EVERYTHING in a sub-5lb laptop with a beautiful 12" screen and 4 honest hours of battery life. There is no comprimise with an iBook. As mentioned in an earlier post, the iBook is the best deal apple has going.
there is no more of a "useful" laptop on the market if you consider the price.
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: I-bent-my-wookie ]</p>
Gar said one day:
"And price targets of what, a hundred?"
lol. man do i hate convertible tablets. But if anyone could get it right, we all know who would.
Oh yeah. Almost forgot. I'm in college. And all these students with 15" Dells and hp's are losers. You should see them try to fit them on our tinnnny desks. Plus theyre really awkward and distracting. I've had more than one professor demand to ask a student what they were doing on one of these "desktop replacements," and I think its because these machines are just so *invasive* profs. think you're using Messenger or something. But you know what? The 12" iBook, or those Sony sub-notes, accomplish their in-class functions perfectly, and I think its because 1) the student can still see over the screen at the teacher and 2) they have room on their desk for other stuff. And oh yeah again- the students with the 15" dells and hp's are total losers and they smell bad. lol seriously this one in front of me actually does! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[QB]
Now you find your power adapter is as big as a babys head and just as hot!
I swear to god I just blew coffee all over my desk when I read this. I have a Dell laptop (which I replaced with an iBook for school) and the power adapter is the monster you make it out to be. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>Sorry Amorph, but I think Matsu is spot on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nowhere did I disagree that a 14" at the 12"'s price point would outsell it. I wouldn't buy one, but I know the demand is there: Apple sells lots and lots of 14" iBooks even with the current premium.
The 12" is there for a specific reason, which I gave, and it's cheap (it even has its own, less expensive case) because the market it exists for (K-12 education) has become wildly cost-conscious. Apple will give up that model when they give up that market (i.e., not soon). Given that LCD cost increases with pixel density as well as glass size, I doubt the 12" LCD costs much less than the 14".
As for the backlight on the 14", it's bigger, so Apple had to choose between battery life and screen brightness. Battery life obviously won.
[quote]<strong>Apple makes the 12" to be cheap, not useful.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting, because somewhere along the way it became incredibly useful. The size and weight of the 12" model is just about perfect for a portable computer.
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
I suppose 1280x1024 would be perfect for a 15" or 16"... I think that's what they do on some.
All in ones are an example of this phenomenon. I believe that the reason Apple has such success with them where other manufacturers don't is because in the small universe that is uniquely Apple, that is the only option for a consumer level computer with a monitor. If they were to release an inexpensive and upgradable unit, they would put the iMac out of business in a day. The 12" book just happens to be the only real option for price conscience Mac consumers. Naturally, people will find added benefits of a product that they essentially had no choice but to purchase.
I believe there are very good reasons why Apple does not offer the Notebook I described in my earlier post that have nothing to do with price. As long as Apple only offers the options they do, then the 12" will continue to be popular. But don't fool yourselves into believing that Apple has hit upon some new formula for consumer notebook screen sizes. They haven't.
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: Mac Voyer ]</p>
<strong>Amorph, I know from experience that the 12" models are useful. I just happen to believe that those useful advantages are a bi-product, not the intent. Sometimes lack of options can make a product a huge success.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can believe that if you want, but given that your last sentence is pretty much the core thesis of Apple design all the way back to the original machines (and a core thesis of good industrial design, period), I don't think it's a coincidence at all.
The "lack of options" made the iMac a huge success, too.
[quote]<strong>I believe that the reason Apple has such success with them where other manufacturers don't is because in the small universe that is uniquely Apple, that is the only option for a consumer level computer with a monitor. If they were to release an inexpensive and upgradable unit, they would put the iMac out of business in a day.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're welcome to that belief, but my mom is still absolutely delighted with the way her CRT iMac vanishes into a corner of her desk and runs quietly. A good AIO has a lot of appeal in its own right.
As I've argued with Matsu, the reason towers outsell AIOs on the PC side is that PC AIOs all suck. So I don't consider the WinTel numbers relevant to the Mac market.
As for the 12" iBook, you still seem to ignore the core reason I gave for its existence, which has nothing to do with the needs of the general market.
As for displays, 1024x768 on a 14 or 15" screen is conservative but rational. It doesn't hurt your work and only helps your eyes. The 14" iBooks I've seen seem to have screens every bit as good as the 12" iBooks, you're just reaching.
A 1280x1024 screen would look really really weird with it's nearly square 5:4 ratio. Mebbe, 1280x960, but I doubt it. 1152x864 would be perfect for a 14" screen. It's my preferred res for a 17" CRT and would only be a touch smaller on a 14" LCD
Personally I like that Apple seems to use resolutions that make sense ergonomically rather than ones that just fit a standard.
Hence numbers like 1680x1050 and 1440x900 and 1280x854. Not exactly standard numbers but square and a reasonable comprimise between screen real-estate and squinty eyes.
iBook will not get a superdrive or a G4 untill a much faster selection of chips becomes available.
See the DP867. Apple spots a deal and promptly removes it from the line-up. The writing is on the wall for the 12" iBook.
<strong>When Apple replaces the 12 with an all 14" line-up weight and size willl not be much of an issue at all. It'll be 5.5lbs or less and smaller than the current 14, not quite as small a fooprint as the 12, but more than close enough, with longer battery life to boot, an easier on the eyes screen, longer battery life (which the 14 already sports), and more power/storage all around. When they do it, you will like it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But not as much as the 12", which I still consider to be just about perfect.
On the other hand, the 12" TiBook isn't quite there yet.
[quote]<strong>Personally I like that Apple seems to use resolutions that make sense ergonomically rather than ones that just fit a standard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, and I expect that trend to continue.
[quote]<strong>See the DP867. Apple spots a deal and promptly removes it from the line-up. The writing is on the wall for the 12" iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There actually seem to be people who are happy with the replacement. Don't ask me why.
But I don't expect the 12" to go away. The 12" is about the size of a textbook. A 14" is took big to be easily carried by a child. The 12" iBook will go away when Apple no longer cares about education, or when they come up with something even better suited for children. The 14" model is for adults.
<strong>No, people get it for a cheap laptop. They want more for their money, they aren't road warriors, most would take the larger screen if it didn't cost more. Subnote buyers will get the little Al.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Being a student, and probably one in Apple's target market, I would hate it if they went all-14-inch. I see alot of iBooks on campus, and they're all 12-inch. Students usually want something very portable that will sit on a those crappy half-desks in lecture halls. The fourteen-inch is too unweildy. It also doesn't fit a backpack so nicely.
You may say that they should go for the Powerbook G4, then, but there is a considerable difference between $1,249 and $1,699.
£795 inc VAT entry is great. I'm still pinching myself.
£695 would be terrific!
Another £100 off. That would be the main 'switcher' aim for the rest of the year. With spec' bump of course. 1 gig G3..?
LEmon Bon Bon :cool: