If he were doing this with his *own* money, in his *own* yard, then you know what? I'd vehemently *support* his right to do so.
The fact is, this is state funds (ie, public monies) being used to raise a monument to *one* religion on state property. That, in my opinion, is wrong.
He used no public money to produce and place the monument.
Simple.... it's not his property to do with what he wishes. It is the state's, and, I know this is an outmoded and unpopular viewpoint, but one that I believe in... the people's. Not some people, not just the Christian people, but all people of the state of Alabama. It's not his property. Let me restate that. It is *not his property*.
The state, through the judicial branch, doing their job in interpreting the law, has decided that this is an improper use of state property. He, as a personal individual, does not have the right to decide that he is above that law, regardless of... no, *especially in light of* his government position.
This seems *extremely* cut and dried to me.
It's not his property. He can't do with it what he wants. He's been told, by the proper owners, to remove the religious icon. What about this is unclear?
I hate to tell you this, but the country was still founded by Christians.
Complete, unadulterated and absolute BS! The stupidity is amazing
Or if you don't believe me, here's John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams
And Benjamin Franklin:
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin
and Thomas Jefferson:
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546
and James Madison:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
Thomas Paine:
my favorite is this gem:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."--Thomas Paine
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writing s_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason
"The adulterous connection between church and state."--Thomas Paine, from _The_Age_of_Reason_
"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."--Thomas Paine, _The_Rights_of_Man_, 1791, ed P.S. Foner, 1945
"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christ ian_Religion_
"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priestcraft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christ ian_Religion_
"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught
"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."--George Washington, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught
and......
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."--First Amendment to the U.S.A. Constitution
"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420
.........
The founding fathers were Deists, absolutely not Christian. One thing we all should all be thankful for in America is the foresight of the founding fathers...they looked at the horrible mess that happens by default when religion and government intermingle.....and in societies where there is a government endorsed religion. Just look at England....500 years of religious intolerance, strife and death...still going on in Northern Ireland. Protestant vs Catholic, Hindu VS Muslim Jew VS Muslim, Muslim VS Muslim etc etc etc!!!!
Religion is a Personal and Private affair. Otherwise, it fails. Always. Without exception. Look at what Jesus himself said: (Matt: 6, 5 - 8 )
He used no public money to produce and place the monument.
Even if Judge Moore bought the monument himself and paid a private cleaning staff out of his own pocket to dust and sweep around this thing, that's entirely besides the point.
The judge clearly wants to use a public facility -- a courthouse --- and the imprimatur of the State to project a far-from-universal religious message.
Yes, we as citizens are expected to put up with plenty of disagreeable or offensive speech from our fellow citizens, acting as individual citizens. We are not, however, expected to put up with individuals hijacking public facilities and the authority of the State to promote a religious viewpoint or agenda. We aren't even expected to put up with a majority of Alabamans wanting to put the Ten Commandments in an Alabama courthouses, because the requirement for separation of Church and State trumps mere majoritarianism.
Moore tries to pretend that the issue is all about whether or not the State should acknowledge God or not. He completely ignores the obviously sectarian nature of the Ten Commandments. He also ignores conflict between (at least his reading of) the Alabama state constitution and the US Constitution, as read through two hundred years of precedence.
While I think about it, I would love to see some counter protester install a huge fat bronze Buddha on a pedestal, right next the Ten Commandments. That would put the whole case into sharp perspective. It would be worth the trouble, just to watch the expressions on the faces of those Bible Belters!
Doesn't fly anymore. Least of all in a country this diverse. Rule by church isn't even a possibility except maybe in very small rural towns where all the people are members / might allow it to happen.
Well, maybe the Vatican is technically all one big church... ask the tenant.
and "run" is such a messy word in the parts of Gaza and the West Bank,
but there are still quite a few ultra-Orthodox backbenchers in Israel...
and by all measures, the cult of personality / Juche around those wacky Kim Ils might qualify N. Korea
I think DiscoCow you might consider trying to come across less as a bigot filled with hate to spare.
Perhaps I should generalize even more?
?I'm so fücking sick of human stupidity.?
No wait:
?I'm so fücking sick of human frailty.?
Or:
?I'm so fücking sick of humanity.?
There, that?s better.
(yes that includes black folks, scientologists, mormons, people with blonde hair, and anyone named ?Jimbo?)
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Reading over some of the posts here I notice some with anger issues.
Anytime I read the phrase "anger issues" I hear a little Lewis Black in the back of my head saying:
Quote:
"I think that if you live in a city like this and you go outside without a proper coat, and you don't say the word FÜCK out loud... you, have anger issues."
For those of you that store large wooden poles in your hind quarters, the above was tongue-in-cheek. Intended to be somewhat abrasive to those that store large wooden poles in their hind quarters.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
Now, Congress didn't exactly make a law saying "A monument to the Ten Commandments will be put in an Alabama courthouse," but in broader terms the first amendment could be saying that the government cannot officially respect an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise of a religion.
Putting the Ten Commandments in a public building, owned by the government, is respecting an establishment of religion. Therefore it is unconstitutional. Mr. Moore should have known better.
Instead of ripping on Christianity itself (I believe that most religions are inherently good, they just sometimes have bad interpretations), I will just present the opinion that there are too many fanatics pushing their own agendas while playing the victim. Phrases like "the decline of morality of our country," "pushing the homosexual agenda," and the like are just sickening to me. "Decline of morality" is just something they say to whine about there being no mandatory prayer session in schools, so our youth can be brainwashed at an early age instead of learning about many religions and living their life the way THEY want.
And SDW, to use comebacks similar to what you've used in the past, I'd have to say that I'm absolutely astonished by the stupidity and shortsightedness of your comments. I have no idea how you can think the way you do but apparently you just have a brain that's wired about as opposite mine as possible. But really, that goes for anyone who can't just read the first clause of the first amendment and see that it's not a matter of opinion, but rather a simple fact that this is a violation of the constitution.
"...no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Yeah, let's not ignore this law ratified by the senate and signed into law by John Adams...
1797 TREATY WITH TRIPOLI
by Gene Garman
Was and is the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli an official treaty of the USA? Yes, all 12 articles as printed in English. See Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America , Hunter Miller, ed., 2:349-385:
?Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796, . . . and at Algiers January 3, 1797, . . . . Original in Arabic. Submitted [in English] to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. . . . Proclaimed June 10, 1797? (p. 349).
?Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary? (p. 364).
?Article 11. As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries? (p. 365).
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
For those of you that store large wooden poles in your hind quarters, the above was tongue-in-cheek. Intended to be somewhat abrasive to those that store large wooden poles in their hind quarters.
I believe in equality.
I hate everybody the same so we?re all even.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Are you also a member of the "People who hate people party"?
If only our leader, the esteemed Mr Bill Hicks hadn't died!!
That's it. That's all there is. One use of 'Nature's God' (sounds pretty, um... what's that word... oh yeah, pagan), and one of 'Creator' (nice and non-specific).
So explain to me again where it states that putting a monument to one, specific, isolated religion in a *place of public law* is *NOT* in any way, shape or form, endorsing a religion? Sure, you could argue that it isn't a law passed by the legislative body, but it sure rides an awfully fine line in my book. No, in fact, it runs roughshod right over it.
The Alabama Chief Justice is letting his own narrow-minded short-sighted self-righteousness get in the way of his legal thinking. Sad.
Non-specific? I would say the Supremem Being as Creator and the God of Nature is pretty specific. The head honcho, the big cheese. And thanks, that was the document I was thinking of, the one which started this country off. A Declaration of Independence from the previous govt to start a new govt, and it mentions God.
And if you have a problem with govt promoting religion, pass laws that ban Xmas displays there. In fact, start something to have us ban religious holidays and turn them into plain, old secular workdays.
The point is these holidays are based on these religions.
If we don't want ANY religious overtones with our govt, it is time to BAN them. Obviously the issue is that any form of religious influence on a govt is bad, so get rid of it all. Or is that too simplistic a statement? If so, the question has been answered.
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
This isn't a citizen expressing a point of view.
If he were doing this with his *own* money, in his *own* yard, then you know what? I'd vehemently *support* his right to do so.
The fact is, this is state funds (ie, public monies) being used to raise a monument to *one* religion on state property. That, in my opinion, is wrong.
He used no public money to produce and place the monument.
Thought I would let you know.
Fellows
Did he also purchase the plot on which it was placed?
Originally posted by Kickaha
He paid for it out of pocket?
Did he also purchase the plot on which it was placed?
Yes he did. So should he have to pay rent? I think I made my self clear several posts up from the bottom of page one of this thread.
Fellowship
The state, through the judicial branch, doing their job in interpreting the law, has decided that this is an improper use of state property. He, as a personal individual, does not have the right to decide that he is above that law, regardless of... no, *especially in light of* his government position.
This seems *extremely* cut and dried to me.
It's not his property. He can't do with it what he wants. He's been told, by the proper owners, to remove the religious icon. What about this is unclear?
Originally posted by SDW2001
I hate to tell you this, but the country was still founded by Christians.
Complete, unadulterated and absolute BS! The stupidity is amazing
Or if you don't believe me, here's John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams
And Benjamin Franklin:
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin
and Thomas Jefferson:
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546
and James Madison:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
Thomas Paine:
my favorite is this gem:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."--Thomas Paine
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writing s_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason
"The adulterous connection between church and state."--Thomas Paine, from _The_Age_of_Reason_
"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."--Thomas Paine, _The_Rights_of_Man_, 1791, ed P.S. Foner, 1945
"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christ ian_Religion_
"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priestcraft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christ ian_Religion_
"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught
"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."--George Washington, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught
and......
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."--First Amendment to the U.S.A. Constitution
"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420
.........
The founding fathers were Deists, absolutely not Christian. One thing we all should all be thankful for in America is the foresight of the founding fathers...they looked at the horrible mess that happens by default when religion and government intermingle.....and in societies where there is a government endorsed religion. Just look at England....500 years of religious intolerance, strife and death...still going on in Northern Ireland. Protestant vs Catholic, Hindu VS Muslim Jew VS Muslim, Muslim VS Muslim etc etc etc!!!!
Religion is a Personal and Private affair. Otherwise, it fails. Always. Without exception. Look at what Jesus himself said: (Matt: 6, 5 - 8 )
It's all there.
Q.E.D!!!!!!!!!
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!
Thanks, sammi jo.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Dear lord, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...
Thanks, sammi jo.
Bad grace.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
He used no public money to produce and place the monument.
Even if Judge Moore bought the monument himself and paid a private cleaning staff out of his own pocket to dust and sweep around this thing, that's entirely besides the point.
The judge clearly wants to use a public facility -- a courthouse --- and the imprimatur of the State to project a far-from-universal religious message.
Yes, we as citizens are expected to put up with plenty of disagreeable or offensive speech from our fellow citizens, acting as individual citizens. We are not, however, expected to put up with individuals hijacking public facilities and the authority of the State to promote a religious viewpoint or agenda. We aren't even expected to put up with a majority of Alabamans wanting to put the Ten Commandments in an Alabama courthouses, because the requirement for separation of Church and State trumps mere majoritarianism.
Moore tries to pretend that the issue is all about whether or not the State should acknowledge God or not. He completely ignores the obviously sectarian nature of the Ten Commandments. He also ignores conflict between (at least his reading of) the Alabama state constitution and the US Constitution, as read through two hundred years of precedence.
Originally posted by Moogs
Separation of Church and state is a joke.
Name a country that's run by a church.
Doesn't fly anymore. Least of all in a country this diverse. Rule by church isn't even a possibility except maybe in very small rural towns where all the people are members / might allow it to happen.
Well, maybe the Vatican is technically all one big church... ask the tenant.
and "run" is such a messy word in the parts of Gaza and the West Bank,
but there are still quite a few ultra-Orthodox backbenchers in Israel...
and by all measures, the cult of personality / Juche around those wacky Kim Ils might qualify N. Korea
just to name three.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I think DiscoCow you might consider trying to come across less as a bigot filled with hate to spare.
Perhaps I should generalize even more?
?I'm so fücking sick of human stupidity.?
No wait:
?I'm so fücking sick of human frailty.?
Or:
?I'm so fücking sick of humanity.?
There, that?s better.
(yes that includes black folks, scientologists, mormons, people with blonde hair, and anyone named ?Jimbo?)
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Reading over some of the posts here I notice some with anger issues.
Anytime I read the phrase "anger issues" I hear a little Lewis Black in the back of my head saying:
"I think that if you live in a city like this and you go outside without a proper coat, and you don't say the word FÜCK out loud... you, have anger issues."
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
It is my wish that you can help yourself.
Thank you my good man. The same to you.
I believe in equality.
I hate everybody the same so we?re all even.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Now, Congress didn't exactly make a law saying "A monument to the Ten Commandments will be put in an Alabama courthouse," but in broader terms the first amendment could be saying that the government cannot officially respect an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise of a religion.
Putting the Ten Commandments in a public building, owned by the government, is respecting an establishment of religion. Therefore it is unconstitutional. Mr. Moore should have known better.
Instead of ripping on Christianity itself (I believe that most religions are inherently good, they just sometimes have bad interpretations), I will just present the opinion that there are too many fanatics pushing their own agendas while playing the victim. Phrases like "the decline of morality of our country," "pushing the homosexual agenda," and the like are just sickening to me. "Decline of morality" is just something they say to whine about there being no mandatory prayer session in schools, so our youth can be brainwashed at an early age instead of learning about many religions and living their life the way THEY want.
And SDW, to use comebacks similar to what you've used in the past, I'd have to say that I'm absolutely astonished by the stupidity and shortsightedness of your comments. I have no idea how you can think the way you do but apparently you just have a brain that's wired about as opposite mine as possible. But really, that goes for anyone who can't just read the first clause of the first amendment and see that it's not a matter of opinion, but rather a simple fact that this is a violation of the constitution.
"...no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Originally posted by der Kopf
...Europe's south...
You left out Bavaria.
Originally posted by 709
Shouldn't it be in Greek?
Anybody who's watched Indiana Jones knows that should Aramaic. But just to be sure, I'll ask Charleton Heston next time I attend an NRA meeting.
1797 TREATY WITH TRIPOLI
by Gene Garman
Was and is the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli an official treaty of the USA? Yes, all 12 articles as printed in English. See Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America , Hunter Miller, ed., 2:349-385:
?Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796, . . . and at Algiers January 3, 1797, . . . . Original in Arabic. Submitted [in English] to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. . . . Proclaimed June 10, 1797? (p. 349).
?Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary? (p. 364).
?Article 11. As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries? (p. 365).
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
Black and white.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm
HELLO? *taps the mic* Is this thing on? Hello?
Originally posted by DiscoCow
For those of you that store large wooden poles in your hind quarters, the above was tongue-in-cheek. Intended to be somewhat abrasive to those that store large wooden poles in their hind quarters.
I believe in equality.
I hate everybody the same so we?re all even.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Are you also a member of the "People who hate people party"?
If only our leader, the esteemed Mr Bill Hicks hadn't died!!
Don't let the plebs beat you down
Originally posted by Kickaha
That's it. That's all there is. One use of 'Nature's God' (sounds pretty, um... what's that word... oh yeah, pagan), and one of 'Creator' (nice and non-specific).
So explain to me again where it states that putting a monument to one, specific, isolated religion in a *place of public law* is *NOT* in any way, shape or form, endorsing a religion? Sure, you could argue that it isn't a law passed by the legislative body, but it sure rides an awfully fine line in my book. No, in fact, it runs roughshod right over it.
The Alabama Chief Justice is letting his own narrow-minded short-sighted self-righteousness get in the way of his legal thinking. Sad.
Non-specific? I would say the Supremem Being as Creator and the God of Nature is pretty specific. The head honcho, the big cheese. And thanks, that was the document I was thinking of, the one which started this country off. A Declaration of Independence from the previous govt to start a new govt, and it mentions God.
And if you have a problem with govt promoting religion, pass laws that ban Xmas displays there. In fact, start something to have us ban religious holidays and turn them into plain, old secular workdays.
Action!
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
Xmas...religious holidays
Hmm... Xmas, a religious holiday?
Also did you miss the discussion about deists?
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Hmm... Xmas, a religious holiday?
Also did you miss the discussion about deists?
The point is these holidays are based on these religions.
If we don't want ANY religious overtones with our govt, it is time to BAN them. Obviously the issue is that any form of religious influence on a govt is bad, so get rid of it all. Or is that too simplistic a statement? If so, the question has been answered.