If immigrants want to come here, then come here legally. Then, if they want to drive here, then go take a driving test and get a driver's license like everyone else. Enough double standards already.
Illegals are tolerated because of the cheap labor they provide, especially in California. Big agribusiness does *very* nicely from the massive labor pool of illegals....and, it puts fruit and vegetables on the table more cheaply.
So Sammi, from what I understand you wouldn't allow illegal immigrants to have a drivers license.
I think you are right on with regard to the toleration of illegals and business. In fact in the thread "How Dean could Beat Bush?" I argued that illegals slow unionization, hold down wages, job advancement and schooling opportunities for legal immigrants as well.
From your take it would seem that those who support illegal immigration support big business exploiting them.
As for the Bush plan, I think he shelved it after 9/11.
As for the first part, according to SB60, proof of citizenship is not required. I am sure that many hispanic advocacy groups would declare asking for citizenship proof while getting a license to be a form of scaring hispanics into not seeking their voting rights or scaring illegals into not seeking their licenses. Assurances can go out that it would only be used for voter registration purposes but illegal immigrants are more wary of governmental organizations for obvious reasons.
Too bad. If they're scared, they're scared. Obviously you don't give a crap because you would keep them all from getting a license. This argument is flacid and weak.
Getting a driver's license has nothing to do with citizenship. If you can pass a test you should be eligible to drive. There is no connection with citizenship. It's not like schooling or hospitals where citizen tax dollars are at work. A driver's license is paid for by the people getting a license.
So, since the voting issue isn't connected to a driver's license either, what argument is left? We just simply want to hurt illegal immigrants? If that's it, we should at least put it out in the open.
So Sammi, from what I understand you wouldn't allow illegal immigrants to have a drivers license.
So if it's OK for illegals to get drivers' licenses, then maybe social security mumbers are next, and while we're at it, why not issue green cards also to illegals...after all...they do come here to work, and don't they have to drive to get to work?
There are laws which require immigrants to go through a set of procedures to obtain legal permanent residency. Virtually every country on the planet has some type of immigration control, for obvious reasons. People who come to the US (or anywhere) know full well that they are liable for deportation if found to be undocumented. It shouldn't matter or make any difference if you are Mexican, British, Iraqi or whatever. Either enforce the law, or change it. Right now,enforcement is arbitrary, a duplicitous mess.
Re. California: The infrastructure, especially in S California is groaning under the strain of between 3000 and 5000 illegals coming over the border each day, almost exclusively from Mexico. Eventually, the system will break down completely. The more immigrants who settle in California, then the more family and relatives (in Mexico) will follow in exponentially increasing numbers. This should never be a "race issue", but its hard for politicians to openly discuss this because the race card is brought out at the first possible opportunity. It's a space/resources problem, not a race one.
Wow Bungie thinks I hate illegals, and Sammi Joe thinks I want to give them everything. (Singing) Torn between two lovers.... feeling like a fool.....
Bunge first...
Quote:
Too bad. If they're scared, they're scared. Obviously you don't give a crap because you would keep them all from getting a license. This argument is flacid and weak.
Getting a driver's license has nothing to do with citizenship. If you can pass a test you should be eligible to drive. There is no connection with citizenship. It's not like schooling or hospitals where citizen tax dollars are at work. A driver's license is paid for by the people getting a license.
So, since the voting issue isn't connected to a driver's license either, what argument is left? We just simply want to hurt illegal immigrants? If that's it, we should at least put it out in the open.
First nice penis reference. (flaccid)
Yes, bunge and if they don't get things they are allowed to get because of racial intimidation, I suppose that is okay with you.
You are correct that getting a license shouldn't have anything to do with citizenship and voting. However thanks to motor-voter it is connected. You can dismiss it all you want, but when they apply for a license, they can check a box and be registered to vote. California can't even change this because it is a federal mandate designed expressly to prevent what you so easily dismiss, intimidation of minority voters.
I haven't indicated a desire to "hurt" illegal immigrants. Heck I've taught illegal immigrants for over a decade. I know I would do the EXACT same things if I were in there position. I know I would for a fact.
The point is that illegal immigrants live, work and drive in this country now. They just don't do it with documentation. They know the lack of documentation could cause them to be deported at any time. So you can't set up a scenario where they go into the DMV and declare they are illegal aliens, they just won't go. It will look like a set up to them. The way around that issue is exactly what SB60 does which is not ask anyone for any documentation.
However now we have issues with proving what people are actually putting down on the application. They don't need a Social Security Card, they don't need proof of status, they just write a name, give a print and hey not only can they drive, they can vote.
Other have suggested giving them the documentation to drive. The stated reasons are a) They will state who they really are and where they really live. b) They will have to be fingerprinted. c) They can get insurance and comply better with the law.
I would say a) We have no proof that they are who they say since we cannot run a background check of demand any documentation. Likewise it requires them to give information that illegals loath to report(address, etc.) b) They will be fingerprinted, as will I. However according to SB60 that database cannot used for law enforcement purposes so what is the point? Likewise it will cost over 50 million for this untouchable database that I now am forced to submit my own information to as well. (Remember how wasteful 50 million was on for a recall!) c) There is no proof they will apply for licenses, that they can afford insurance or anything else.
We can have a bill to address the issue of illegal immigrants driving and having licenses, but it shouldn't demand nothing of them, force me to give up my privacy and cost me a bundle in the meantime.
Sammi's next...
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So if it's OK for illegals to get drivers' licenses, then maybe social security mumbers are next, and while we're at it, why not issue green cards also to illegals...after all...they do come here to work, and don't they have to drive to get to work?
There are laws which require immigrants to go through a set of procedures to obtain legal permanent residency. Virtually every country on the planet has some type of immigration control, for obvious reasons. People who come to the US (or anywhere) know full well that they are liable for deportation if found to be undocumented. It shouldn't matter or make any difference if you are Mexican, British, Iraqi or whatever. Either enforce the law, or change it. Right now,enforcement is arbitrary, a duplicitous mess.
Re. California: The infrastructure, especially in S California is groaning under the strain of between 3000 and 5000 illegals coming over the border each day, almost exclusively from Mexico. Eventually, the system will break down completely. The more immigrants who settle in California, then the more family and relatives (in Mexico) will follow in exponentially increasing numbers. This should never be a "race issue", but its hard for politicians to openly discuss this because the race card is brought out at the first possible opportunity. It's a space/resources problem, not a race one.
I don't think it is a space problem. I do think it is a resources problem. Most of the problems though are created by federal mandate. However everytime the state attempts to take steps to force the federal government to actually fund their mandates, it comes across as racist. Prop 187 was an attempt to have the state step into federal responsibilities. After it was overturned, the state should have proceeded with it anyway and forced a federal case that would have resolved with the Supreme Court requiring the government to fund the demands or police the border.
Yes, bunge and if they don't get things they are allowed to get because of racial intimidation, I suppose that is okay with you.
Racial intimidation? How did you jump to race?
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Originally posted by trumptman
You are correct that getting a license shouldn't have anything to do with citizenship and voting. However thanks to motor-voter it is connected. You can dismiss it all you want, but when they apply for a license, they can check a box and be registered to vote.
Registering to vote in California doesn't take any more than that anyway. It's just not an issue. You can isolate this one example, but you're really incriminating the entire voting registration system, not motor-voter or driver's licenses. That's why it's irrelevant to this discussion. If you want a discussion about how easy it is to register to vote, that has nothing to do with getting a driver's license. If you want a discussion about getting a driver's license, it has nothing to do with registering to vote.
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Originally posted by trumptman
So you can't set up a scenario where they go into the DMV and declare they are illegal aliens, they just won't go. It will look like a set up to them. The way around that issue is exactly what SB60 does which is not ask anyone for any documentation.
It works in Chicago. And if you don't like it, leave it the way it is. With or without SB60, in California illegal immigrants can register to vote in less than 30 seconds.
Yeah well good for Chicago, but I'm sure you don't have the massive numbers of illegals that we have here in California.
I'm not sure but Chicago is the second largest Polish city in the world, second only to Warsaw. We have enough taquerias to keep me busy three meals a day, 365 days a year.
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Originally posted by Cake
The L.A.Times had some numbers a while back about the economic impact that illegals cause here:
- 30% of the California economy is "off the books". That in turn means 7 Billion per year in lost taxes.
- 10 Billion dollars in cash per year is sent to Mexico from illegals workering in California.
- 340 Million is spent on illegals healthcare in the L.A. County hospitals each year.
And a driver's license will cost zero. These topics aren't related to a driver's license.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cake
Giving them a document to drive will solve very little and cause many more problems.
Besides, if an illegal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Hell no, they're still going to drive where ever they want to.
What problems are the drivers licenses going to cause?
If a legal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Would you prefer ethnic intimidation? I was using the actual phrase used my motor-voter.
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Registering to vote in California doesn't take any more than that anyway. It's just not an issue. You can isolate this one example, but you're really incriminating the entire voting registration system, not motor-voter or driver's licenses. That's why it's irrelevant to this discussion. If you want a discussion about how easy it is to register to vote, that has nothing to do with getting a driver's license. If you want a discussion about getting a driver's license, it has nothing to do with registering to vote.
It would at least require them to fill out a form and commit the fraud instead of "accidentally" checking a box on a license form. One action is direct, the other is just a "misunderstanding."
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It works in Chicago. And if you don't like it, leave it the way it is. With or without SB60, in California illegal immigrants can register to vote in less than 30 seconds.
So instead of just stating this and vilifying those of us with "secret agendas" What would you do to remedy it?
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And a driver's license will cost zero. These topics aren't related to a driver's license.
Actually the fingerprinting system is estimated at a $50 million minimum. When you count the time of having EVERYONE come in to take prints that gets quite expensive. Lastly to cover the costs associated with this, they are discussing doubling the license fee. In California this would go from $12 to $24. I know that doesn't sound like much but when vehicle registration fees have already gone up $150 PER CAR (on average) then it really starts to hurt.
Would you prefer ethnic intimidation? I was using the actual phrase used my motor-voter.
I'm saying it's not racial or ethnic intimidation to offer a service like this. As I said, it's working in Chicago.
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Originally posted by trumptman
It would at least require them to fill out a form and commit the fraud instead of "accidentally" checking a box on a license form. One action is direct, the other is just a "misunderstanding."
Sorry, weak argument. Checking a box and adding your signature is no different then adding your signature. Both could be considered fraud.
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Originally posted by trumptman
So instead of just stating this and vilifying those of us with "secret agendas" What would you do to remedy it?
The 30 second registration problem? I don't know what's been or not been covered by the Supreme Court. If the system has worked out like this so far based on decisions by the Supreme Court then I wouldn't change a thing.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually the fingerprinting system is estimated at a $50 million minimum. When you count the time of having EVERYONE come in to take prints that gets quite expensive. Lastly to cover the costs associated with this, they are discussing doubling the license fee. In California this would go from $12 to $24. I know that doesn't sound like much but when vehicle registration fees have already gone up $150 PER CAR (on average) then it really starts to hurt.
Yeah, that's why I think just leaving everything without a big system is the way to go. Registering to vote is a simple process, especially in California where, last time I checked, anyone could get a bunch of forms and stand on a street corner getting signatures and addresses and then registering those that sign the form. They can even ask and search out only people that vote with similar tendencies, deliberately ask if someone is a democrat or republican, and only let like minded people sign.
With such open laws, the check box on the drivers license form just doesn't hold any weight. The only question that really matters is if illegal immigrants should be able to get a license or not. In my opinion, it hurts nothing and could help some, even if in only a limited number of cases. It's just not worth the time and money to try and prevent it, as this system of finger prints points out.
What problems are the drivers licenses going to cause?
If a legal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Issuing drivers licenses to illegals will essentially give them a gateway that will allow them to continue to live illegally more comfortably than if they did not have the document.
With the drivers license it will be easier for them to open bank accounts, get credit cards etc.
If they want these priviledges they should go through the process of becomming a legal resident just like thousands before them.
And if a legal takes the test and fails yet continues to drive and then gets into an accident, that person usually will have a bank account or property that he/she can use to pay back any damages that they caused.
An illegal will simply get deported leaving no one to pay and that causes insurance rates to go up.
There is a system in place that allows them to become a citizen. That process should not bypassed because Grey Davis is afraid to piss off anyone who might possibly vote for him - keep in mind that he vetoed a similar bill last year.
The only reason he's going to sign this is because of the recall.
Oh and Illinios doesn't have nearly the problem that we do here:
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Over 40 percent (3.4 million) of all undocumented immigrants live in California. Following California, Texas (1.5 million), New York (625,000), Florida (560,000), Illinois (464,000) and New Jersey (219,000) have the largest share and concentration of illegal immigrants.
Issuing drivers licenses to illegals will essentially give them a gateway that will allow them to continue to live illegally more comfortably than if they did not have the document.
I just don't see it. More comfortably? Perhaps. But I don't think it's that big of a deal. The only chance it would have of helping would be if they took advantage of the offer. If they do, we'll have safer streets with better drivers.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cake
And if a legal takes the test and fails yet continues to drive and then gets into an accident, that person usually will have a bank account or property that he/she can use to pay back any damages that they caused.
An illegal will simply get deported leaving no one to pay and that causes insurance rates to go up.
And what would happen now? This is irrelevant. If your previous point were true, that credit cards and bank accounts would be easier to get, then this other point would be false. They'd have bank accounts the government could take in the case of an accident. If the previous point is false so they wouldn't have bank accounts to take then this is no different in either scenario. An illegal with or without a license won't be paying squat. This law will have no bearing on this.
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Originally posted by Cake
There is a system in place that allows them to become a citizen. That process should not bypassed....
I agree. I just don't think this makes much of a difference. If someone is here and wants to drive, they should be able to drive. It's bad enough that states tax licenses, parking, vehicle stickers and who knows what else. A person in this country, if physically and mentally capable, should be able to drive.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cake
Oh and Illinios doesn't have nearly the problem that we do here:
OK. These numbers show that proportionately that Cali has twice as many as Illinois. Illinois still has roughly 4% of their population as illegals. It's a significant enough number that if Illinois changes its behavior for them it'll make a difference. To say that this number in Illinois isn't great enough to warrant discussion is not really valid.
I just don't see it. More comfortably? Perhaps. But I don't think it's that big of a deal. The only chance it would have of helping would be if they took advantage of the offer. If they do, we'll have safer streets with better drivers.
You know I keep seeing this assertion, safer streets with better drivers, and I would like to know where it comes from. The drivers likely already have a license from Mexico. I've not read any sort of news story where illegals are causing a disportionate number of driving accidents. The driving laws in the United States and Mexico are essentually the same.
I say this because the other law that pops up every couple of years is accepting Mexican drivers licenses as a valid form of I.D.
I would contend that we would be no safer since these folks have already taken and passed literally the same drivers tests in their own respective country. If anything they will be better drivers here because the roads are narrower and the speeds lower in Mexico. I've driven through the whole Baja peninsula with my California drivers license. This is legal I am allowed to drive with my U.S. license, I do not need the Mexican one.
Likewise we have passed federal laws that allow truckers to drive their loads into the U.S. from Mexico without fear that they are "bad drivers." So again the real question is where is the proof they will be better drivers passing our test than they are already passing the Mexican test.
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Yeah, that's why I think just leaving everything without a big system is the way to go. Registering to vote is a simple process, especially in California where, last time I checked, anyone could get a bunch of forms and stand on a street corner getting signatures and addresses and then registering those that sign the form. They can even ask and search out only people that vote with similar tendencies, deliberately ask if someone is a democrat or republican, and only let like minded people sign.
With such open laws, the check box on the drivers license form just doesn't hold any weight. The only question that really matters is if illegal immigrants should be able to get a license or not. In my opinion, it hurts nothing and could help some, even if in only a limited number of cases. It's just not worth the time and money to try and prevent it, as this system of finger prints points out.
From what I have understood they cannot prevent you from registering to vote just because they have a different party affiliation. Often people will have voter registration drives in conjunction with certain partition drives. I have rather fond memories of registering in the past with groups with whom I stood in opposition of what they wanted. It's sort of fun.
As for the checkbox, to me they could claim confusion since you are registering to vote with a drivers license form vs. registering to vote with a voter registration form. Sure it sounds like the height of stupidity and I seriously doubt any person would be legitimately confused. However these are the same folks that told us that they needed motor-voter in the first place. The insulting premise is theirs.
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And what would happen now? This is irrelevant. If your previous point were true, that credit cards and bank accounts would be easier to get, then this other point would be false. They'd have bank accounts the government could take in the case of an accident. If the previous point is false so they wouldn't have bank accounts to take then this is no different in either scenario. An illegal with or without a license won't be paying squat. This law will have no bearing on this.
If we get no benefit, then why give them a benefit? Driving isn't a right even for U.S. citizens. The claim was that they would get insurance. If as both you and I contended, it really won't change their behavior, then why do it?
I don't get it, shouldn't illegal immigrants, be well, illegal?
Yes, farmers might have to hire summer help from the ranks of working poor university students, or perhaps some of the people on the welfare rolls could get a less glamorous job, hmmm, mebbe? And the Mexicans/Chinese can go through the immigration process just like everybody else.
Rather than give them licenses, deport them, and, if they were harboured by a landed immigrant, deport the landed immigrant and their family aswell. Landed immigrants are not entitled to all the benefits of citizenry, so why not work it like probabation.
What happens now is that Tito gets into the country (legally), and then harbours 12 people from the old village while he works to establish them, and in all fairness to them, they often work very hard to establish themselves, but still, if you have a legal process to establish immigration and naturalization, you have to follow it, or what's the point? Just open the damn doors and let whomever walk in, then sort them later.
You know I keep seeing this assertion, safer streets with better drivers, and I would like to know where it comes from. The drivers likely already have a license from Mexico.
Well this actually isn't true. In Mexico, you can stop on the side of the road and buy a license. It gives you a certain amount of time until you have to take a test, a year I think. I could stop, pay the few pesos and get a license while on vacation.
I've also known people that have driven without a license for years. Get caught without a license and the result? Give 'em a pack of smokes.
The laws are different too. Cops can't follow a person onto private property so chases are considered a lot of fun. Make it to your driveway before they get you and there's nothing the cops can do.
Rest assured, Mexicans grow up with a significantly different driving culture than we do. Wrong way up one way roads, speeding like crazy, traffic jams the likes of which most people have never seen, it's a fun place to drive....
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Originally posted by trumptman
If we get no benefit, then why give them a benefit? Driving isn't a right even for U.S. citizens. The claim was that they would get insurance. If as both you and I contended, it really won't change their behavior, then why do it?
Here's what I think. SB60 is probably a bad idea. Letting them get a drivers license probably isn't a bad idea. If we ignore the voting registration idea for a minute, there are basically only positives to letting them get a license. It will help generate revenue from a few sources. Getting the license costs and some will ultimately get insurance too. Both of these will put money back into the economy.
isn't auto insurance mandatory in all states? whether or not you get it is another story. anyways this is silly, i doubt they would get auto insurance. they don't deserve licenses either imo
Again, if this is just about trying to harm people because they're 'illegal' then we should be clear on that.
Instead of passing SB60, California should just make the process more agnostic and reduce the bureaucracy. Being a citizen doesn't make you a better driver. The process should be minimized to focus on getting licenses into the hands of good drivers and making bad drivers work on their skills to come back and try another day.
Citizenship should never come into play. It adds paperwork, effort, time and money to a government process and adds absolutely no value.
How about first they prove they pay taxes then get licenses?
Maybe they don't pay income taxes, but their pay is usually below minimum wage.
The net result is that they get less money than they would if they had normal wages and paid income tax, but still pay things like sales tax. And ultimately because businesses don't have to pay SS and other benefits, the goods, products and services we buy are far less expensive negating and surpassing any possible benefit to the income taxes these people might pay.
Well this actually isn't true. In Mexico, you can stop on the side of the road and buy a license. It gives you a certain amount of time until you have to take a test, a year I think. I could stop, pay the few pesos and get a license while on vacation.
I've also known people that have driven without a license for years. Get caught without a license and the result? Give 'em a pack of smokes.
The laws are different too. Cops can't follow a person onto private property so chases are considered a lot of fun. Make it to your driveway before they get you and there's nothing the cops can do.
Rest assured, Mexicans grow up with a significantly different driving culture than we do. Wrong way up one way roads, speeding like crazy, traffic jams the likes of which most people have never seen, it's a fun place to drive....
Different driving culture? I call that East Coast driving. I saw everything you described when I was back east a couple of times.
On the east coast those lines that create lanes seem to be "suggestions" rather than mandatory.
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Here's what I think. SB60 is probably a bad idea. Letting them get a drivers license probably isn't a bad idea. If we ignore the voting registration idea for a minute, there are basically only positives to letting them get a license. It will help generate revenue from a few sources. Getting the license costs and some will ultimately get insurance too. Both of these will put money back into the economy.
First you can't ignore voter registration when it is a federal requirement. Second how will it put money back into the economy? Right now a license in California costs $12. If anything it might take money away because they spend a few hundred dollars to get the fake documentation. The guy that gives them the fake documentation spends it locally. He/She doesn't send it off to another country.
Likewise you say that some might get insurance but I doubt it. I have no doubt that insurance companies would seek to either not cover illegals or charge prohibitive prices for doing so. Even having a license doens't truly change your liability because as I said no one has complained of huge numbers of illegals causing driving accidents. It is a solution to a nonproblem. The real issue is getting them a license so they can use it to get other legal rights, not get insurance.
Maybe they don't pay income taxes, but their pay is usually below minimum wage.
The net result is that they get less money than they would if they had normal wages and paid income tax, but still pay things like sales tax. And ultimately because businesses don't have to pay SS and other benefits, the goods, products and services we buy are far less expensive negating and surpassing any possible benefit to the income taxes these people might pay.
Actually that is a myth as well. Plenty of illegals make more than minimum wage. They just make less than union wages or work for less than the prevailing wage. That is why I have contended that illegal immigratin impacts unionization in other threads. For example roofing and painting in this day and age are not especially difficult trades. Roofing has more issues with workman's comp than with the actual job itself. To hire a roofer and pay him $100, you have to put $25 into workman's comp for when he falls off the damn roof and gets hurt.
Illegals obvious get no workmans comp. Likewise you can pay them about 3/4's of what others would get for the job. So a regular roofer might make $20 an hour with another $5 being paid into workman's comp. You pay the illegal $15 and no workman's comp and it is a substancial savings. However even illegals have their working standards. They wouldn't jump on that roof for $4-5 an hour.
Comments
Originally posted by sammi jo
If immigrants want to come here, then come here legally. Then, if they want to drive here, then go take a driving test and get a driver's license like everyone else. Enough double standards already.
Illegals are tolerated because of the cheap labor they provide, especially in California. Big agribusiness does *very* nicely from the massive labor pool of illegals....and, it puts fruit and vegetables on the table more cheaply.
What happened with
this plan , any follow up?
So Sammi, from what I understand you wouldn't allow illegal immigrants to have a drivers license.
I think you are right on with regard to the toleration of illegals and business. In fact in the thread "How Dean could Beat Bush?" I argued that illegals slow unionization, hold down wages, job advancement and schooling opportunities for legal immigrants as well.
From your take it would seem that those who support illegal immigration support big business exploiting them.
As for the Bush plan, I think he shelved it after 9/11.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
As for the first part, according to SB60, proof of citizenship is not required. I am sure that many hispanic advocacy groups would declare asking for citizenship proof while getting a license to be a form of scaring hispanics into not seeking their voting rights or scaring illegals into not seeking their licenses. Assurances can go out that it would only be used for voter registration purposes but illegal immigrants are more wary of governmental organizations for obvious reasons.
Too bad. If they're scared, they're scared. Obviously you don't give a crap because you would keep them all from getting a license. This argument is flacid and weak.
Getting a driver's license has nothing to do with citizenship. If you can pass a test you should be eligible to drive. There is no connection with citizenship. It's not like schooling or hospitals where citizen tax dollars are at work. A driver's license is paid for by the people getting a license.
So, since the voting issue isn't connected to a driver's license either, what argument is left? We just simply want to hurt illegal immigrants? If that's it, we should at least put it out in the open.
Originally posted by trumptman
So Sammi, from what I understand you wouldn't allow illegal immigrants to have a drivers license.
So if it's OK for illegals to get drivers' licenses, then maybe social security mumbers are next, and while we're at it, why not issue green cards also to illegals...after all...they do come here to work, and don't they have to drive to get to work?
There are laws which require immigrants to go through a set of procedures to obtain legal permanent residency. Virtually every country on the planet has some type of immigration control, for obvious reasons. People who come to the US (or anywhere) know full well that they are liable for deportation if found to be undocumented. It shouldn't matter or make any difference if you are Mexican, British, Iraqi or whatever. Either enforce the law, or change it. Right now,enforcement is arbitrary, a duplicitous mess.
Re. California: The infrastructure, especially in S California is groaning under the strain of between 3000 and 5000 illegals coming over the border each day, almost exclusively from Mexico. Eventually, the system will break down completely. The more immigrants who settle in California, then the more family and relatives (in Mexico) will follow in exponentially increasing numbers. This should never be a "race issue", but its hard for politicians to openly discuss this because the race card is brought out at the first possible opportunity. It's a space/resources problem, not a race one.
Bunge first...
Too bad. If they're scared, they're scared. Obviously you don't give a crap because you would keep them all from getting a license. This argument is flacid and weak.
Getting a driver's license has nothing to do with citizenship. If you can pass a test you should be eligible to drive. There is no connection with citizenship. It's not like schooling or hospitals where citizen tax dollars are at work. A driver's license is paid for by the people getting a license.
So, since the voting issue isn't connected to a driver's license either, what argument is left? We just simply want to hurt illegal immigrants? If that's it, we should at least put it out in the open.
First nice penis reference. (flaccid)
Yes, bunge and if they don't get things they are allowed to get because of racial intimidation, I suppose that is okay with you.
You are correct that getting a license shouldn't have anything to do with citizenship and voting. However thanks to motor-voter it is connected. You can dismiss it all you want, but when they apply for a license, they can check a box and be registered to vote. California can't even change this because it is a federal mandate designed expressly to prevent what you so easily dismiss, intimidation of minority voters.
I haven't indicated a desire to "hurt" illegal immigrants. Heck I've taught illegal immigrants for over a decade. I know I would do the EXACT same things if I were in there position. I know I would for a fact.
The point is that illegal immigrants live, work and drive in this country now. They just don't do it with documentation. They know the lack of documentation could cause them to be deported at any time. So you can't set up a scenario where they go into the DMV and declare they are illegal aliens, they just won't go. It will look like a set up to them. The way around that issue is exactly what SB60 does which is not ask anyone for any documentation.
However now we have issues with proving what people are actually putting down on the application. They don't need a Social Security Card, they don't need proof of status, they just write a name, give a print and hey not only can they drive, they can vote.
Other have suggested giving them the documentation to drive. The stated reasons are a) They will state who they really are and where they really live. b) They will have to be fingerprinted. c) They can get insurance and comply better with the law.
I would say a) We have no proof that they are who they say since we cannot run a background check of demand any documentation. Likewise it requires them to give information that illegals loath to report(address, etc.) b) They will be fingerprinted, as will I. However according to SB60 that database cannot used for law enforcement purposes so what is the point? Likewise it will cost over 50 million for this untouchable database that I now am forced to submit my own information to as well. (Remember how wasteful 50 million was on for a recall!) c) There is no proof they will apply for licenses, that they can afford insurance or anything else.
We can have a bill to address the issue of illegal immigrants driving and having licenses, but it shouldn't demand nothing of them, force me to give up my privacy and cost me a bundle in the meantime.
Sammi's next...
So if it's OK for illegals to get drivers' licenses, then maybe social security mumbers are next, and while we're at it, why not issue green cards also to illegals...after all...they do come here to work, and don't they have to drive to get to work?
There are laws which require immigrants to go through a set of procedures to obtain legal permanent residency. Virtually every country on the planet has some type of immigration control, for obvious reasons. People who come to the US (or anywhere) know full well that they are liable for deportation if found to be undocumented. It shouldn't matter or make any difference if you are Mexican, British, Iraqi or whatever. Either enforce the law, or change it. Right now,enforcement is arbitrary, a duplicitous mess.
Re. California: The infrastructure, especially in S California is groaning under the strain of between 3000 and 5000 illegals coming over the border each day, almost exclusively from Mexico. Eventually, the system will break down completely. The more immigrants who settle in California, then the more family and relatives (in Mexico) will follow in exponentially increasing numbers. This should never be a "race issue", but its hard for politicians to openly discuss this because the race card is brought out at the first possible opportunity. It's a space/resources problem, not a race one.
I don't think it is a space problem. I do think it is a resources problem. Most of the problems though are created by federal mandate. However everytime the state attempts to take steps to force the federal government to actually fund their mandates, it comes across as racist. Prop 187 was an attempt to have the state step into federal responsibilities. After it was overturned, the state should have proceeded with it anyway and forced a federal case that would have resolved with the Supreme Court requiring the government to fund the demands or police the border.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
It's been done here in Chicago and so far no problems.
Yeah well good for Chicago, but I'm sure you don't have the massive numbers of illegals that we have here in California.
The L.A.Times had some numbers a while back about the economic impact that illegals cause here:
- 30% of the California economy is "off the books". That in turn means 7 Billion per year in lost taxes.
- 10 Billion dollars in cash per year is sent to Mexico from illegals workering in California.
- 340 Million is spent on illegals healthcare in the L.A. County hospitals each year.
Giving them a document to drive will solve very little and cause many more problems.
Besides, if an illegal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Hell no, they're still going to drive where ever they want to.
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes, bunge and if they don't get things they are allowed to get because of racial intimidation, I suppose that is okay with you.
Racial intimidation? How did you jump to race?
Originally posted by trumptman
You are correct that getting a license shouldn't have anything to do with citizenship and voting. However thanks to motor-voter it is connected. You can dismiss it all you want, but when they apply for a license, they can check a box and be registered to vote.
Registering to vote in California doesn't take any more than that anyway. It's just not an issue. You can isolate this one example, but you're really incriminating the entire voting registration system, not motor-voter or driver's licenses. That's why it's irrelevant to this discussion. If you want a discussion about how easy it is to register to vote, that has nothing to do with getting a driver's license. If you want a discussion about getting a driver's license, it has nothing to do with registering to vote.
Originally posted by trumptman
So you can't set up a scenario where they go into the DMV and declare they are illegal aliens, they just won't go. It will look like a set up to them. The way around that issue is exactly what SB60 does which is not ask anyone for any documentation.
It works in Chicago. And if you don't like it, leave it the way it is. With or without SB60, in California illegal immigrants can register to vote in less than 30 seconds.
Originally posted by Cake
Yeah well good for Chicago, but I'm sure you don't have the massive numbers of illegals that we have here in California.
I'm not sure but Chicago is the second largest Polish city in the world, second only to Warsaw. We have enough taquerias to keep me busy three meals a day, 365 days a year.
Originally posted by Cake
The L.A.Times had some numbers a while back about the economic impact that illegals cause here:
- 30% of the California economy is "off the books". That in turn means 7 Billion per year in lost taxes.
- 10 Billion dollars in cash per year is sent to Mexico from illegals workering in California.
- 340 Million is spent on illegals healthcare in the L.A. County hospitals each year.
And a driver's license will cost zero. These topics aren't related to a driver's license.
Originally posted by Cake
Giving them a document to drive will solve very little and cause many more problems.
Besides, if an illegal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Hell no, they're still going to drive where ever they want to.
What problems are the drivers licenses going to cause?
If a legal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Originally posted by bunge
Racial intimidation? How did you jump to race?
Would you prefer ethnic intimidation? I was using the actual phrase used my motor-voter.
Registering to vote in California doesn't take any more than that anyway. It's just not an issue. You can isolate this one example, but you're really incriminating the entire voting registration system, not motor-voter or driver's licenses. That's why it's irrelevant to this discussion. If you want a discussion about how easy it is to register to vote, that has nothing to do with getting a driver's license. If you want a discussion about getting a driver's license, it has nothing to do with registering to vote.
It would at least require them to fill out a form and commit the fraud instead of "accidentally" checking a box on a license form. One action is direct, the other is just a "misunderstanding."
It works in Chicago. And if you don't like it, leave it the way it is. With or without SB60, in California illegal immigrants can register to vote in less than 30 seconds.
So instead of just stating this and vilifying those of us with "secret agendas"
And a driver's license will cost zero. These topics aren't related to a driver's license.
Actually the fingerprinting system is estimated at a $50 million minimum. When you count the time of having EVERYONE come in to take prints that gets quite expensive. Lastly to cover the costs associated with this, they are discussing doubling the license fee. In California this would go from $12 to $24. I know that doesn't sound like much but when vehicle registration fees have already gone up $150 PER CAR (on average) then it really starts to hurt.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Would you prefer ethnic intimidation? I was using the actual phrase used my motor-voter.
I'm saying it's not racial or ethnic intimidation to offer a service like this. As I said, it's working in Chicago.
Originally posted by trumptman
It would at least require them to fill out a form and commit the fraud instead of "accidentally" checking a box on a license form. One action is direct, the other is just a "misunderstanding."
Sorry, weak argument. Checking a box and adding your signature is no different then adding your signature. Both could be considered fraud.
Originally posted by trumptman
So instead of just stating this and vilifying those of us with "secret agendas"
The 30 second registration problem? I don't know what's been or not been covered by the Supreme Court. If the system has worked out like this so far based on decisions by the Supreme Court then I wouldn't change a thing.
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually the fingerprinting system is estimated at a $50 million minimum. When you count the time of having EVERYONE come in to take prints that gets quite expensive. Lastly to cover the costs associated with this, they are discussing doubling the license fee. In California this would go from $12 to $24. I know that doesn't sound like much but when vehicle registration fees have already gone up $150 PER CAR (on average) then it really starts to hurt.
Yeah, that's why I think just leaving everything without a big system is the way to go. Registering to vote is a simple process, especially in California where, last time I checked, anyone could get a bunch of forms and stand on a street corner getting signatures and addresses and then registering those that sign the form. They can even ask and search out only people that vote with similar tendencies, deliberately ask if someone is a democrat or republican, and only let like minded people sign.
With such open laws, the check box on the drivers license form just doesn't hold any weight. The only question that really matters is if illegal immigrants should be able to get a license or not. In my opinion, it hurts nothing and could help some, even if in only a limited number of cases. It's just not worth the time and money to try and prevent it, as this system of finger prints points out.
Originally posted by bunge
What problems are the drivers licenses going to cause?
If a legal takes the test and fails, do you think that he/she will stop driving voluntarily?
Issuing drivers licenses to illegals will essentially give them a gateway that will allow them to continue to live illegally more comfortably than if they did not have the document.
With the drivers license it will be easier for them to open bank accounts, get credit cards etc.
If they want these priviledges they should go through the process of becomming a legal resident just like thousands before them.
And if a legal takes the test and fails yet continues to drive and then gets into an accident, that person usually will have a bank account or property that he/she can use to pay back any damages that they caused.
An illegal will simply get deported leaving no one to pay and that causes insurance rates to go up.
There is a system in place that allows them to become a citizen. That process should not bypassed because Grey Davis is afraid to piss off anyone who might possibly vote for him - keep in mind that he vetoed a similar bill last year.
The only reason he's going to sign this is because of the recall.
Oh and Illinios doesn't have nearly the problem that we do here:
Over 40 percent (3.4 million) of all undocumented immigrants live in California. Following California, Texas (1.5 million), New York (625,000), Florida (560,000), Illinois (464,000) and New Jersey (219,000) have the largest share and concentration of illegal immigrants.
From here.
We don't need another hole in the dam.
Originally posted by Cake
Issuing drivers licenses to illegals will essentially give them a gateway that will allow them to continue to live illegally more comfortably than if they did not have the document.
I just don't see it. More comfortably? Perhaps. But I don't think it's that big of a deal. The only chance it would have of helping would be if they took advantage of the offer. If they do, we'll have safer streets with better drivers.
Originally posted by Cake
And if a legal takes the test and fails yet continues to drive and then gets into an accident, that person usually will have a bank account or property that he/she can use to pay back any damages that they caused.
An illegal will simply get deported leaving no one to pay and that causes insurance rates to go up.
And what would happen now? This is irrelevant. If your previous point were true, that credit cards and bank accounts would be easier to get, then this other point would be false. They'd have bank accounts the government could take in the case of an accident. If the previous point is false so they wouldn't have bank accounts to take then this is no different in either scenario. An illegal with or without a license won't be paying squat. This law will have no bearing on this.
Originally posted by Cake
There is a system in place that allows them to become a citizen. That process should not bypassed....
I agree. I just don't think this makes much of a difference. If someone is here and wants to drive, they should be able to drive. It's bad enough that states tax licenses, parking, vehicle stickers and who knows what else. A person in this country, if physically and mentally capable, should be able to drive.
Originally posted by Cake
Oh and Illinios doesn't have nearly the problem that we do here:
From here.
We don't need another hole in the dam.
OK. These numbers show that proportionately that Cali has twice as many as Illinois. Illinois still has roughly 4% of their population as illegals. It's a significant enough number that if Illinois changes its behavior for them it'll make a difference. To say that this number in Illinois isn't great enough to warrant discussion is not really valid.
Originally posted by bunge
I just don't see it. More comfortably? Perhaps. But I don't think it's that big of a deal. The only chance it would have of helping would be if they took advantage of the offer. If they do, we'll have safer streets with better drivers.
You know I keep seeing this assertion, safer streets with better drivers, and I would like to know where it comes from. The drivers likely already have a license from Mexico. I've not read any sort of news story where illegals are causing a disportionate number of driving accidents. The driving laws in the United States and Mexico are essentually the same.
I say this because the other law that pops up every couple of years is accepting Mexican drivers licenses as a valid form of I.D.
I would contend that we would be no safer since these folks have already taken and passed literally the same drivers tests in their own respective country. If anything they will be better drivers here because the roads are narrower and the speeds lower in Mexico. I've driven through the whole Baja peninsula with my California drivers license. This is legal I am allowed to drive with my U.S. license, I do not need the Mexican one.
Likewise we have passed federal laws that allow truckers to drive their loads into the U.S. from Mexico without fear that they are "bad drivers." So again the real question is where is the proof they will be better drivers passing our test than they are already passing the Mexican test.
Yeah, that's why I think just leaving everything without a big system is the way to go. Registering to vote is a simple process, especially in California where, last time I checked, anyone could get a bunch of forms and stand on a street corner getting signatures and addresses and then registering those that sign the form. They can even ask and search out only people that vote with similar tendencies, deliberately ask if someone is a democrat or republican, and only let like minded people sign.
With such open laws, the check box on the drivers license form just doesn't hold any weight. The only question that really matters is if illegal immigrants should be able to get a license or not. In my opinion, it hurts nothing and could help some, even if in only a limited number of cases. It's just not worth the time and money to try and prevent it, as this system of finger prints points out.
From what I have understood they cannot prevent you from registering to vote just because they have a different party affiliation. Often people will have voter registration drives in conjunction with certain partition drives. I have rather fond memories of registering in the past with groups with whom I stood in opposition of what they wanted. It's sort of fun.
As for the checkbox, to me they could claim confusion since you are registering to vote with a drivers license form vs. registering to vote with a voter registration form. Sure it sounds like the height of stupidity and I seriously doubt any person would be legitimately confused. However these are the same folks that told us that they needed motor-voter in the first place. The insulting premise is theirs.
And what would happen now? This is irrelevant. If your previous point were true, that credit cards and bank accounts would be easier to get, then this other point would be false. They'd have bank accounts the government could take in the case of an accident. If the previous point is false so they wouldn't have bank accounts to take then this is no different in either scenario. An illegal with or without a license won't be paying squat. This law will have no bearing on this.
If we get no benefit, then why give them a benefit? Driving isn't a right even for U.S. citizens. The claim was that they would get insurance. If as both you and I contended, it really won't change their behavior, then why do it?
Nick
Yes, farmers might have to hire summer help from the ranks of working poor university students, or perhaps some of the people on the welfare rolls could get a less glamorous job, hmmm, mebbe? And the Mexicans/Chinese can go through the immigration process just like everybody else.
Rather than give them licenses, deport them, and, if they were harboured by a landed immigrant, deport the landed immigrant and their family aswell. Landed immigrants are not entitled to all the benefits of citizenry, so why not work it like probabation.
What happens now is that Tito gets into the country (legally), and then harbours 12 people from the old village while he works to establish them, and in all fairness to them, they often work very hard to establish themselves, but still, if you have a legal process to establish immigration and naturalization, you have to follow it, or what's the point? Just open the damn doors and let whomever walk in, then sort them later.
Originally posted by trumptman
You know I keep seeing this assertion, safer streets with better drivers, and I would like to know where it comes from. The drivers likely already have a license from Mexico.
Well this actually isn't true. In Mexico, you can stop on the side of the road and buy a license. It gives you a certain amount of time until you have to take a test, a year I think. I could stop, pay the few pesos and get a license while on vacation.
I've also known people that have driven without a license for years. Get caught without a license and the result? Give 'em a pack of smokes.
The laws are different too. Cops can't follow a person onto private property so chases are considered a lot of fun. Make it to your driveway before they get you and there's nothing the cops can do.
Rest assured, Mexicans grow up with a significantly different driving culture than we do. Wrong way up one way roads, speeding like crazy, traffic jams the likes of which most people have never seen, it's a fun place to drive....
Originally posted by trumptman
If we get no benefit, then why give them a benefit? Driving isn't a right even for U.S. citizens. The claim was that they would get insurance. If as both you and I contended, it really won't change their behavior, then why do it?
Here's what I think. SB60 is probably a bad idea. Letting them get a drivers license probably isn't a bad idea. If we ignore the voting registration idea for a minute, there are basically only positives to letting them get a license. It will help generate revenue from a few sources. Getting the license costs and some will ultimately get insurance too. Both of these will put money back into the economy.
Originally posted by burningwheel
they don't deserve licenses either imo
Again, if this is just about trying to harm people because they're 'illegal' then we should be clear on that.
Instead of passing SB60, California should just make the process more agnostic and reduce the bureaucracy. Being a citizen doesn't make you a better driver. The process should be minimized to focus on getting licenses into the hands of good drivers and making bad drivers work on their skills to come back and try another day.
Citizenship should never come into play. It adds paperwork, effort, time and money to a government process and adds absolutely no value.
Originally posted by Outsider
How about first they prove they pay taxes then get licenses?
Maybe they don't pay income taxes, but their pay is usually below minimum wage.
The net result is that they get less money than they would if they had normal wages and paid income tax, but still pay things like sales tax. And ultimately because businesses don't have to pay SS and other benefits, the goods, products and services we buy are far less expensive negating and surpassing any possible benefit to the income taxes these people might pay.
Originally posted by bunge
Well this actually isn't true. In Mexico, you can stop on the side of the road and buy a license. It gives you a certain amount of time until you have to take a test, a year I think. I could stop, pay the few pesos and get a license while on vacation.
I've also known people that have driven without a license for years. Get caught without a license and the result? Give 'em a pack of smokes.
The laws are different too. Cops can't follow a person onto private property so chases are considered a lot of fun. Make it to your driveway before they get you and there's nothing the cops can do.
Rest assured, Mexicans grow up with a significantly different driving culture than we do. Wrong way up one way roads, speeding like crazy, traffic jams the likes of which most people have never seen, it's a fun place to drive....
Different driving culture? I call that East Coast driving. I saw everything you described when I was back east a couple of times.
On the east coast those lines that create lanes seem to be "suggestions" rather than mandatory.
Here's what I think. SB60 is probably a bad idea. Letting them get a drivers license probably isn't a bad idea. If we ignore the voting registration idea for a minute, there are basically only positives to letting them get a license. It will help generate revenue from a few sources. Getting the license costs and some will ultimately get insurance too. Both of these will put money back into the economy.
First you can't ignore voter registration when it is a federal requirement. Second how will it put money back into the economy? Right now a license in California costs $12. If anything it might take money away because they spend a few hundred dollars to get the fake documentation. The guy that gives them the fake documentation spends it locally. He/She doesn't send it off to another country.
Likewise you say that some might get insurance but I doubt it. I have no doubt that insurance companies would seek to either not cover illegals or charge prohibitive prices for doing so. Even having a license doens't truly change your liability because as I said no one has complained of huge numbers of illegals causing driving accidents. It is a solution to a nonproblem. The real issue is getting them a license so they can use it to get other legal rights, not get insurance.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
Maybe they don't pay income taxes, but their pay is usually below minimum wage.
The net result is that they get less money than they would if they had normal wages and paid income tax, but still pay things like sales tax. And ultimately because businesses don't have to pay SS and other benefits, the goods, products and services we buy are far less expensive negating and surpassing any possible benefit to the income taxes these people might pay.
Actually that is a myth as well. Plenty of illegals make more than minimum wage. They just make less than union wages or work for less than the prevailing wage. That is why I have contended that illegal immigratin impacts unionization in other threads. For example roofing and painting in this day and age are not especially difficult trades. Roofing has more issues with workman's comp than with the actual job itself. To hire a roofer and pay him $100, you have to put $25 into workman's comp for when he falls off the damn roof and gets hurt.
Illegals obvious get no workmans comp. Likewise you can pay them about 3/4's of what others would get for the job. So a regular roofer might make $20 an hour with another $5 being paid into workman's comp. You pay the illegal $15 and no workman's comp and it is a substancial savings. However even illegals have their working standards. They wouldn't jump on that roof for $4-5 an hour.
Nick