IMO that's the best reason to reject the Euro. You think France and Germany give a rats ass if the little country go under?
Smaller countries are the ones to profit the most. Since they usually export almost exclusively to the EU, a floating exchange rate hurts them much more than it hurts larger countries with a bigger internal market and stronger exports overseas.
Economies do not just tank out of the blue. If any country "goes under" (quite a pathetic way to put it), a lot went wrong in the way it is run by its national government.
As usual, you don't even have a bit of a clue, Scott - the smaller countries (Luxembourg, Austria) are mostly faring quite well and the larger (France, Germany) are having a harder time.
I believe that the swedes have shot themselves in the foot - hurting their own economy. Quite likely they'll lose some of their big companies and of course will not attract foreign investment.
But then, they have a strong economy, so they will not really suffer
The reason I'm fundamentally against the ?uropean Union as a whole is that it takes the decision making further away from the people those decisions are meant to serve. The simple fact that a politician has to face TV cameras in his own country whenever he makes (or does not make) a decision makes him think twice before making silly decisions or he decides not to act in any given case. This doesn't happen when vital decisions are made 1000's of KM away from home soil (in Brussels).
But don't you see that that line of thinking is exactly what's stifling Europe. Like all these member states are hyperconscious super-egoes as to what they have and should get, so quick to get 'hurt', so that any proposal by one member has to get shot at by all the other members.
You note the same as I do, though your solution is to take the cause of the problem even further, thus annihilating the chance of any true 'union' ever:
Quote:
There are loads of benefits from the ?U obviously. I just believe those benefits could be reached without this Mega-Monster the ?U has become. ?U was meant to overtake 100's of institutions in each of the member's state. This has not happened. The institutions are still alive and well. They have just slightly altered their role so the financial benefit isn't there at all.
Let's open all boarders inside Europe, let's tear down the all restrictions of free trade. We can all agree on these principles. But we don't need EU for doing this.
Uniting a region as vast as Europe is a long process, especially if you want to do it peacibly. Napoleon, Ceasar and the Germans have once "united" Europe, and did it fast, but that didn't lead nowhere. If you decide to going along the durable path, you have to go through politics. And things like the monetary union are giant leaps in that process. All of a sudden, I have a PHYSICAL connection, 'kinship' if you will, with France, Germany, Italy, Spain, ...
IMO that's the best reason to reject the Euro. You think France and Germany give a rats ass if the little country go under?
Obviously not well versed in this topic, but I'm not surprised. They don't have to give a rats ass, European regulation, with the European commission and the parliament, will see to it that they don't go down completely.
This means people will more readily do business where there is Euro (clearer), which means lost opportunities for Sweden
This means Sweden will have no or little say in any future decisions about the Euro
This means Sweden is being conservative and just doesn't "get it".
Pity for you. Every Swedish expat I know is fervently for the Euro. Seems only people OUTSIDE of Sweden actually understand its importance while locals are just brainwashed.
You think Texas or California give a rats ass if the little states go under?
The federal government does not tell Texas and California how much to tax, what to spend state money on, how much it can borrow and so on. The EU wants control over the monetary policy of it's members. That's giving up a lot.
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Yup. That makes about as much sense. Is there anything you DO know about?
Obviously not well versed in this topic, but I'm not surprised. They don't have to give a rats ass, European regulation, with the European commission and the parliament, will see to it that they don't go down completely.
We'll see. I'm not sure the method has been tested. You can say that and it may be how people want/hope/think it will work out but until id does it's for nobel laureates to argue about.
Economies need to be flexible and react even on a day to day basis. The EU, from my perspective, is nothing like that.
Europe is about STABILITY. Thats probably one the biggest underlying concepts behind the European Union.
I can still remember when I was a kid and was travelling all over the place in Europe and had to wait hours between Italian/French borders or any other border. Now the world, and especially europe, has become a "smaller" place with cheap travel, etc.
If Sweden was not doing well economically, it would also be the other member states that would do what would be possible to help it recover.
The model is very American and for many ways similar.
Also in the USA you have a lot of people that absolutely hate the Federal Government.
A problem I can see in Europe, is that it might work for 50 years, but like the former CCCP, the states may decide that in the future they want to regain independance if things really aren't working. Then there will be mass bloodshed?
A problem I can see in Europe, is that it might work for 50 years, but like the former CCCP, the states may decide that in the future they want to regain independance if things really aren't working. Then there will be mass bloodshed?
... like the US? Working well for those guys (in many ways).
What wasn't working was that offensive political system: that's why the CCCP fell apart.
We've pulled up the roots of that crap in western Yoorp, although the Balkans are clearly iffy. And 'Europe' as an idea helped to end it.
The more I think of it, it's people with vested interests who want Yoorp to fail, and those with vested interests who want it to succeed. (Well duh).
... like the US? Working well for those guys (in many ways).
What wasn't working was that offensive political system: that's why the CCCP fell apart.
We've pulled up the roots of that crap in western Yoorp, although the Balkans are clearly iffy. And 'Europe' as an idea helped to end it.
The more I think of it, it's people with vested interests who want Yoorp to fail, and those with vested interests who want it to succeed. (Well duh).
Ich bin ein Yoorpeen. No more war.
Sure it works for the US, but they are a new country that was unified largely from the start and was lucky to be successful from the start.
Do you think a US integration would be successful today if they were all independant countries - Pretend Texas had the reputation of "OLD" Germany, and now Texas was a leading country in the unification of the US. Notice I highlight 'OLD'
Do you think that the US would be the integrated place it is today, IF it had been unsuccessful in its economic endevour and the populous were not tied together back to the origins of the country.
What doesn't work about Europe IMO, IS the offensive political system. Not the people, not the countries, but the politicians. Wasteful, Deceitful scumbags. For the EU to be sucessful,is needs to be far less Socialist, Socialism is the ultimate nice dream, but it doesn't work.
Europe as an idea didn't end anything. The people and leaders of Europe were shocked and grieved into realising that co-operation is better than war. Hopefully that will remain the case. But you can take it too far. A single government for the whole region will not work. Maybe it will take 50, 100, 200 years, but it will fall apart when things start too go seriously wrong. Turn it around a bit, would the Germans accept a EU force in its country to stamp out rebellion and enforce 'membership' if the German people and leaders decided that they want to be independant again in 50 years time due too the experiment going seriously wrong?
I think there is more chance of a major EU conflict because of integration. Why at present, would any EU country want to go to war with any other, there really is no reason. Lump it all together with a single currency, single government, single army, OK it may be harder too, but there is more of a reason when things go seriously wrong and you want out.
That said, I dont want Europe to fail, I 'love' all my EU neighbours, ie the people, places,etc, but politicians are largely scum and usually the cause of all the problems. The single currency is great, I wish we were in, I wish we all spoke the same language too, but I think the EU superstate idea is too far, people all over the world have died for centuries to retain independance.
A single currency, government or army cannot create peace, only the sensibilities of the leaders/people involved, it may delay possible nastinesses, but if it were to happen, it would sure be much more devastating when it did.
A problem I can see in Europe, is that it might work for 50 years, but like the former CCCP, the states may decide that in the future they want to regain independance if things really aren't working. Then there will be mass bloodshed?
You mean like the massive uprise when Greenland decided to leave the EU?
You may wish to stock up on historical knowledge a wee bit. The CCCP was a dictatorship, the EU is a bunch of democracies. The CCCP was socialist, the EU is capitalist. The CCCP was formed in a war, the EU because some countries were fed up with fighting each other. There was no exit procedure for leaving the CCCP, there is one for leaving the EU.
You are basically just spreading FUD.
And it's not like the formation of the US had anything to do with being peaceful. The claiming of the west, the wars against the european colonial powers, the secession between the southern confederation and the north...
You mean like the massive uprise when Greenland decided to leave the EU?
Greenland isn't an independent country an therefor it has never been a full member of the EU
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
There was no exit procedure for leaving the CCCP, there is one for leaving the EU.
Can you show any documentation for this???? I've never heard of it. Before the ?uro referendum here in Denmark EU representatives even admitted that getting out was *very* difficult, if at all possible. And how can it be possible (practically speaking) to leave when EU members are banned from making any free trade agreements with countries outside the EU?? A country that would like to leave, if it could leave at all, would be totally isolated both politically and economically. It's like a cult group that shuns it's ex members, even their own family members to keep people in the sect. Stating there is a 'get out' procedure is plain funny.
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
IMO that's the best reason to reject the Euro. You think France and Germany give a rats ass if the little country go under?
Smaller countries are the ones to profit the most. Since they usually export almost exclusively to the EU, a floating exchange rate hurts them much more than it hurts larger countries with a bigger internal market and stronger exports overseas.
Economies do not just tank out of the blue. If any country "goes under" (quite a pathetic way to put it), a lot went wrong in the way it is run by its national government.
As usual, you don't even have a bit of a clue, Scott - the smaller countries (Luxembourg, Austria) are mostly faring quite well and the larger (France, Germany) are having a harder time.
I believe that the swedes have shot themselves in the foot - hurting their own economy. Quite likely they'll lose some of their big companies and of course will not attract foreign investment.
But then, they have a strong economy, so they will not really suffer
Originally posted by bunge
I know in Italy a lot of prices went 1000 to 1. So, a 7,000 lira pizza went to 7 Euros. In US dollars, that's going from roughly $3.50 USD to $7 USD.
I'm talking about countries outside of the monetary union.
Originally posted by kelib
The reason I'm fundamentally against the ?uropean Union as a whole is that it takes the decision making further away from the people those decisions are meant to serve. The simple fact that a politician has to face TV cameras in his own country whenever he makes (or does not make) a decision makes him think twice before making silly decisions or he decides not to act in any given case. This doesn't happen when vital decisions are made 1000's of KM away from home soil (in Brussels).
But don't you see that that line of thinking is exactly what's stifling Europe. Like all these member states are hyperconscious super-egoes as to what they have and should get, so quick to get 'hurt', so that any proposal by one member has to get shot at by all the other members.
You note the same as I do, though your solution is to take the cause of the problem even further, thus annihilating the chance of any true 'union' ever:
There are loads of benefits from the ?U obviously. I just believe those benefits could be reached without this Mega-Monster the ?U has become. ?U was meant to overtake 100's of institutions in each of the member's state. This has not happened. The institutions are still alive and well. They have just slightly altered their role so the financial benefit isn't there at all.
Let's open all boarders inside Europe, let's tear down the all restrictions of free trade. We can all agree on these principles. But we don't need EU for doing this.
Uniting a region as vast as Europe is a long process, especially if you want to do it peacibly. Napoleon, Ceasar and the Germans have once "united" Europe, and did it fast, but that didn't lead nowhere. If you decide to going along the durable path, you have to go through politics. And things like the monetary union are giant leaps in that process. All of a sudden, I have a PHYSICAL connection, 'kinship' if you will, with France, Germany, Italy, Spain, ...
Originally posted by Scott
IMO that's the best reason to reject the Euro. You think France and Germany give a rats ass if the little country go under?
Obviously not well versed in this topic, but I'm not surprised. They don't have to give a rats ass, European regulation, with the European commission and the parliament, will see to it that they don't go down completely.
This means that you'll have pissed off tourists
This means people will more readily do business where there is Euro (clearer), which means lost opportunities for Sweden
This means Sweden will have no or little say in any future decisions about the Euro
This means Sweden is being conservative and just doesn't "get it".
Pity for you. Every Swedish expat I know is fervently for the Euro. Seems only people OUTSIDE of Sweden actually understand its importance while locals are just brainwashed.
Originally posted by Scott
IMO that's the best reason to reject the Euro. You think France and Germany give a rats ass if the little country go under?
You think Texas or California give a rats ass if the little states go under?
Yup. That makes about as much sense. Is there anything you DO know about?
Originally posted by Harald
You think Texas or California give a rats ass if the little states go under?
The federal government does not tell Texas and California how much to tax, what to spend state money on, how much it can borrow and so on. The EU wants control over the monetary policy of it's members. That's giving up a lot.
Originally posted by Harald
Yup. That makes about as much sense. Is there anything you DO know about?
Yawn.
Originally posted by der Kopf
Obviously not well versed in this topic, but I'm not surprised. They don't have to give a rats ass, European regulation, with the European commission and the parliament, will see to it that they don't go down completely.
We'll see. I'm not sure the method has been tested. You can say that and it may be how people want/hope/think it will work out but until id does it's for nobel laureates to argue about.
Economies need to be flexible and react even on a day to day basis. The EU, from my perspective, is nothing like that.
Originally posted by Scott
The federal government does not tell Texas and California how much to tax, what to spend state money on, how much it can borrow and so on.
Wow! That's just like the CEB.
I can still remember when I was a kid and was travelling all over the place in Europe and had to wait hours between Italian/French borders or any other border. Now the world, and especially europe, has become a "smaller" place with cheap travel, etc.
If Sweden was not doing well economically, it would also be the other member states that would do what would be possible to help it recover.
The model is very American and for many ways similar.
Also in the USA you have a lot of people that absolutely hate the Federal Government.
In the end, no one will be always happy.
Originally posted by Anna Mated
A problem I can see in Europe, is that it might work for 50 years, but like the former CCCP, the states may decide that in the future they want to regain independance if things really aren't working. Then there will be mass bloodshed?
... like the US? Working well for those guys (in many ways).
What wasn't working was that offensive political system: that's why the CCCP fell apart.
We've pulled up the roots of that crap in western Yoorp, although the Balkans are clearly iffy. And 'Europe' as an idea helped to end it.
The more I think of it, it's people with vested interests who want Yoorp to fail, and those with vested interests who want it to succeed. (Well duh).
Ich bin ein Yoorpeen. No more war.
Originally posted by Harald
... like the US? Working well for those guys (in many ways).
What wasn't working was that offensive political system: that's why the CCCP fell apart.
We've pulled up the roots of that crap in western Yoorp, although the Balkans are clearly iffy. And 'Europe' as an idea helped to end it.
The more I think of it, it's people with vested interests who want Yoorp to fail, and those with vested interests who want it to succeed. (Well duh).
Ich bin ein Yoorpeen. No more war.
Sure it works for the US, but they are a new country that was unified largely from the start and was lucky to be successful from the start.
Do you think a US integration would be successful today if they were all independant countries - Pretend Texas had the reputation of "OLD" Germany, and now Texas was a leading country in the unification of the US. Notice I highlight 'OLD'
Do you think that the US would be the integrated place it is today, IF it had been unsuccessful in its economic endevour and the populous were not tied together back to the origins of the country.
What doesn't work about Europe IMO, IS the offensive political system. Not the people, not the countries, but the politicians. Wasteful, Deceitful scumbags. For the EU to be sucessful,is needs to be far less Socialist, Socialism is the ultimate nice dream, but it doesn't work.
Europe as an idea didn't end anything. The people and leaders of Europe were shocked and grieved into realising that co-operation is better than war. Hopefully that will remain the case. But you can take it too far. A single government for the whole region will not work. Maybe it will take 50, 100, 200 years, but it will fall apart when things start too go seriously wrong. Turn it around a bit, would the Germans accept a EU force in its country to stamp out rebellion and enforce 'membership' if the German people and leaders decided that they want to be independant again in 50 years time due too the experiment going seriously wrong?
I think there is more chance of a major EU conflict because of integration. Why at present, would any EU country want to go to war with any other, there really is no reason. Lump it all together with a single currency, single government, single army, OK it may be harder too, but there is more of a reason when things go seriously wrong and you want out.
That said, I dont want Europe to fail, I 'love' all my EU neighbours, ie the people, places,etc, but politicians are largely scum and usually the cause of all the problems. The single currency is great, I wish we were in, I wish we all spoke the same language too, but I think the EU superstate idea is too far, people all over the world have died for centuries to retain independance.
A single currency, government or army cannot create peace, only the sensibilities of the leaders/people involved, it may delay possible nastinesses, but if it were to happen, it would sure be much more devastating when it did.
Originally posted by Anna Mated
Sure it works for the US, but they are a new country that was unified largely from the start and was lucky to be successful from the start.
Civil.
War.
Originally posted by Harald
Civil.
War.
was that the war where the Americans fought to be integrated with the English?
Originally posted by Anna Mated
A problem I can see in Europe, is that it might work for 50 years, but like the former CCCP, the states may decide that in the future they want to regain independance if things really aren't working. Then there will be mass bloodshed?
You mean like the massive uprise when Greenland decided to leave the EU?
You may wish to stock up on historical knowledge a wee bit. The CCCP was a dictatorship, the EU is a bunch of democracies. The CCCP was socialist, the EU is capitalist. The CCCP was formed in a war, the EU because some countries were fed up with fighting each other. There was no exit procedure for leaving the CCCP, there is one for leaving the EU.
You are basically just spreading FUD.
And it's not like the formation of the US had anything to do with being peaceful. The claiming of the west, the wars against the european colonial powers, the secession between the southern confederation and the north...
Regards
Originally posted by Smircle
You mean like the massive uprise when Greenland decided to leave the EU?
Greenland isn't an independent country an therefor it has never been a full member of the EU
Originally posted by Smircle
There was no exit procedure for leaving the CCCP, there is one for leaving the EU.
Can you show any documentation for this???? I've never heard of it. Before the ?uro referendum here in Denmark EU representatives even admitted that getting out was *very* difficult, if at all possible. And how can it be possible (practically speaking) to leave when EU members are banned from making any free trade agreements with countries outside the EU?? A country that would like to leave, if it could leave at all, would be totally isolated both politically and economically. It's like a cult group that shuns it's ex members, even their own family members to keep people in the sect. Stating there is a 'get out' procedure is plain funny.