So now we get to harm both hands instead of one, since we're tied to a keyboard and a mouse ... some "genius" ...
The way people hold a mouse, and in addition the way most mice are designed to be held, promotes serious strain on the wrist and index, middle, and ring fingers. Plenty of research shows it to be much worse than typing with the proper posture. So-called "ergonomic" mice often increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The hand should only be on the mouse when mousing and off it at all other times.
The way people hold a mouse, and in addition the way most mice are designed to be held, promotes serious strain on the wrist and index, middle, and ring fingers. Plenty of research shows it to be much worse than typing with the proper posture. So-called "ergonomic" mice often increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The hand should only be on the mouse when mousing and off it at all other times.
Agreed, thus ...
Put a scroll wheel on there so you don't have to hunt and peck several times to get a side bar to move ... just move the damn wheel, much less strain, much less frustration.
Having to hold your hand on the mouse, while the other hand hunts and pecks for a button to hold down to change context, so you can then push the button on the mouse ... is actually worse strain than just having another mouse button.
Let's face it Apple folk, a mouse is a necessary evil, but somehow believing that making it harder to use will somehow make it less painful is really a desperate act of faith over reality ... it's a nice badge to show off to prove one's Apple affiliation ... but beyond this, it only functions as probably the number one or number two frustration switchers from Intel have to put up with.
... and people think one button makes things "easy"?
Maybe back in 1986, but not in 2003 when 95% of the computing population has personally experienced otherwise.
I just tried disabling the scroll wheel and the side buttons on my MX500 and setting the right and left click to both be "right click." I leave my left hand by the control, command, and option keys, and my right hand by the arrow and pageup/pagedown keys. Apple's new keyboard actually makes the arrow keys and the pageup and pagedown keys easier to find because of that silly little plastic platform between them. There are lots of variations in how the keyboard feels so I don't have to hunt or peck for anything. I might actually have some use for a one button mouse, if it means it'll reduce RSI - I'm young so I haven't seen the effects yet, but perhaps, over time, I'll be better off if I use the MX500 just for gaming.
If you don't believe that the one button design reduces RSI, then you don't understand the mechanics of your hands.
I'm not trying to argue that a one-button mouse isn't more ergonomical. I agree with what everyone is saying about the RSIs, etc. regarding the two-button/one-button debate. That's not my point. My point simply was that with Apple's 3% market share and having a 3% market with one-button mice, Apple isn't doing anything drastic to reduce the number of RSIs in total simply because of the significantly greater number of people who still use a multi-button mouse. That includes those who do replace there one-button mouse in the Mac community.
I haven't done my own research on mice and RSIs, but everything you and the others are saying make sense. I don't disagree with those claims. Let me clarify my wants in this two-button/one-button situation. Please tell me if I'm being unreasonable because I simply don't think that I am. All I want to be able to do when I decide to by a Power Mac one of these days to have one of two options: 1) Be able to select a two button mouse from apple's website/stores whatever to ship with my computer and not be charged extra for the extra button or 2) (Though I'd much rather have an Apple designed mouse to match the computer) is to be able to choose my computer to not ship with a mouse and Apple charge me a few bucks less, which can be put towards purchasing a third party two button mouse. I haven't checked Apple's website to see if that's actually possible; if so, then I can be fine with that.
Put a scroll wheel on there so you don't have to hunt and peck several times to get a side bar to move ... just move the damn wheel, much less strain, much less frustration.
Having to hold your hand on the mouse, while the other hand hunts and pecks for a button to hold down to change context, so you can then push the button on the mouse ... is actually worse strain than just having another mouse button.
No, it's more "effort" but not more "strain." I don't see the hunt and peck problem when it comes to scrolling, the arrow keys are right there for the navigating. Your argument against CTRL clicks is a little specious. I've never had to hold my hands over the mouse while I "hunt" for the CTRL key -- it falls to hand as easily as the arrow keys, and the action happens simultaneously. If Apple's one mouse button can encourage a generation of computer users to get their wrists up and hands off the mouse, then I applaud it.
Were it up to me, I'd be tempted to get rid of the mouse altogether, and try a bluetooth pen as the imput system of choice. NO BUTTONS, fully gesture controlled mouse replacement. The technology already exists and doesn't need any special paper (unlike Anoto) all we need is a crafty little company like Apple to come along and make it seamless. NB* I'm NOT talking about a tablet here, just a wireless pen that can function both as wireless writing device and as mouse replacement imput system.
I don't have any problems at all with a single button mouse but I would like to see some more functionality added to the contextual menu under OS X. Why does the contextual menu under OS X have so little to offer? I guess if you want more powerful contextual menus you can install Fruit Menu but it would be nice if it was built into the system. Maybe Panther will bring us more powerful contextual menus?
Very much so. I've been using the scroll wheel while reading this thread. Not because it's cool but because it's easier. I don't have to move my hand over to the scroll bar I just move my index finger.
Like I said moving stuff to the trash : Highlight the object with the right button ( you get a context menu ). Go down select move to trash and there you go. Much faster than dragging it to the trash and less movement. If you have a lot on youir desktop to trow away or in the finder window to trash it's a real time saver.
I know this is simple but it's just an example of what you can do ( save a jpg by right click and select save to disc all with one hand ).
This notion of it being complex is silly. It enhances your computing experience with everything from desktop operations to throwing the knife or second weapon in Soldier Of Fortune 2.
I don't understand the big deal. A two button mouse isn't hindering you from using only one button, but conversely, a one button mouse is preventing you from using a second button.
Very true, probably the wisest comment all thread. Agreed? It my preference for a two button mouse, but if there is a one button, it's not like the control button is hard to access.
I really don't mind for general purposes. When you get into gaming, then the extra button just becomes an extra feature on the feature set of the mac, and can hinder you if there isn't one. But even then, you could get really good using your 'other' hand to switch weapons with the 1-10 keys, and use their extra option with the q or e keys...so either way...it's just a mouse...my opinion, and there always seems to be some sort of way to compensate.
Very true, probably the wisest comment all thread. Agreed? It my preference for a two button mouse, but if there is a one button, it's not like the control button is hard to access.
I really don't mind for general purposes. When you get into gaming, then the extra button just becomes an extra feature on the feature set of the mac, and can hinder you if there isn't one. But even then, you could get really good using your 'other' hand to switch weapons with the 1-10 keys, and use their extra option with the q or e keys...so either way...it's just a mouse...my opinion, and there always seems to be some sort of way to compensate.
Uh have you ever tried throwing a knife while dodging bullets By using the keyboard in SOF 2? It's many times easier with a second button.
With the keyboard you're running with " W ", steering with the mouse, and at the same time throwing the knife with a button on the keyboard ( I used to use the " R " key since it was close ). The second button is not only easier it's quicker.
I agree that the one-button mouse is ergonomically superior. But the extra button and scroll wheel would come in very handy. So what should Apple do? Here's what I'd like to see:
This way, my non-mousing hand would have something to do, and when I don't need the 2nd mouse button or scrollpad, my hand just rests to the left of the keyboard.
I guess these items would need to be built into both sides of the kb for ambidexterity, but I don't think it would have to make the keyboard that much bigger.
Hmm... a scroll wheel on the keyboard WOULD be nice! I'd certainly be able to use a one button mouse if I had one of those. The main problem I have with one button mice is scrolling - yeah, the keyboard can do space and shift-space to go a page down or up, and there are the arrow keys, but they're just not convenient.
I agree that the one-button mouse is ergonomically superior. But the extra button and scroll wheel would come in very handy. So what should Apple do? Here's what I'd like to see:
This way, my non-mousing hand would have something to do, and when I don't need the 2nd mouse button or scrollpad, my hand just rests to the left of the keyboard.
I guess these items would need to be built into both sides of the kb for ambidexterity, but I don't think it would have to make the keyboard that much bigger.
Belkin, according to their press release, is releasing a 4-button, scroll-wheel, Mac OS X-compatible, Bluetooth optical mouse in five days. Price = $80. I'm in.
Same thing it's always been for. After all, Apple could continue to sell a basic keyboard without these additions -- and thus, continue to force developers to accommodate a one-button framework.
The additional key is not a control key -- it inputs the same signal as a right mouse button on a two-button mouse. So, with this setup, your right hand clicks the main mouse button, your left hand clicks the secondary.
Comments
Originally posted by OverToasty
So now we get to harm both hands instead of one, since we're tied to a keyboard and a mouse ... some "genius" ...
The way people hold a mouse, and in addition the way most mice are designed to be held, promotes serious strain on the wrist and index, middle, and ring fingers. Plenty of research shows it to be much worse than typing with the proper posture. So-called "ergonomic" mice often increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The hand should only be on the mouse when mousing and off it at all other times.
Originally posted by bunge
Do two button mice work with Macs?
YES!
Get one, scroll wheel even!
Originally posted by Matsu
The way people hold a mouse, and in addition the way most mice are designed to be held, promotes serious strain on the wrist and index, middle, and ring fingers. Plenty of research shows it to be much worse than typing with the proper posture. So-called "ergonomic" mice often increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The hand should only be on the mouse when mousing and off it at all other times.
Agreed, thus ...
Put a scroll wheel on there so you don't have to hunt and peck several times to get a side bar to move ... just move the damn wheel, much less strain, much less frustration.
Having to hold your hand on the mouse, while the other hand hunts and pecks for a button to hold down to change context, so you can then push the button on the mouse ... is actually worse strain than just having another mouse button.
Let's face it Apple folk, a mouse is a necessary evil, but somehow believing that making it harder to use will somehow make it less painful is really a desperate act of faith over reality ... it's a nice badge to show off to prove one's Apple affiliation ... but beyond this, it only functions as probably the number one or number two frustration switchers from Intel have to put up with.
... and people think one button makes things "easy"?
Maybe back in 1986, but not in 2003 when 95% of the computing population has personally experienced otherwise.
Originally posted by Matsu
If you don't believe that the one button design reduces RSI, then you don't understand the mechanics of your hands.
I'm not trying to argue that a one-button mouse isn't more ergonomical. I agree with what everyone is saying about the RSIs, etc. regarding the two-button/one-button debate. That's not my point. My point simply was that with Apple's 3% market share and having a 3% market with one-button mice, Apple isn't doing anything drastic to reduce the number of RSIs in total simply because of the significantly greater number of people who still use a multi-button mouse. That includes those who do replace there one-button mouse in the Mac community.
I haven't done my own research on mice and RSIs, but everything you and the others are saying make sense. I don't disagree with those claims. Let me clarify my wants in this two-button/one-button situation. Please tell me if I'm being unreasonable because I simply don't think that I am. All I want to be able to do when I decide to by a Power Mac one of these days to have one of two options: 1) Be able to select a two button mouse from apple's website/stores whatever to ship with my computer and not be charged extra for the extra button or 2) (Though I'd much rather have an Apple designed mouse to match the computer) is to be able to choose my computer to not ship with a mouse and Apple charge me a few bucks less, which can be put towards purchasing a third party two button mouse. I haven't checked Apple's website to see if that's actually possible; if so, then I can be fine with that.
Regards!
Originally posted by OverToasty
Agreed, thus ...
Put a scroll wheel on there so you don't have to hunt and peck several times to get a side bar to move ... just move the damn wheel, much less strain, much less frustration.
Having to hold your hand on the mouse, while the other hand hunts and pecks for a button to hold down to change context, so you can then push the button on the mouse ... is actually worse strain than just having another mouse button.
No, it's more "effort" but not more "strain." I don't see the hunt and peck problem when it comes to scrolling, the arrow keys are right there for the navigating. Your argument against CTRL clicks is a little specious. I've never had to hold my hands over the mouse while I "hunt" for the CTRL key -- it falls to hand as easily as the arrow keys, and the action happens simultaneously. If Apple's one mouse button can encourage a generation of computer users to get their wrists up and hands off the mouse, then I applaud it.
Were it up to me, I'd be tempted to get rid of the mouse altogether, and try a bluetooth pen as the imput system of choice. NO BUTTONS, fully gesture controlled mouse replacement. The technology already exists and doesn't need any special paper (unlike Anoto) all we need is a crafty little company like Apple to come along and make it seamless. NB* I'm NOT talking about a tablet here, just a wireless pen that can function both as wireless writing device and as mouse replacement imput system.
Originally posted by bunge
Do two button mice work with Macs?
Very much so. I've been using the scroll wheel while reading this thread. Not because it's cool but because it's easier. I don't have to move my hand over to the scroll bar I just move my index finger.
Like I said moving stuff to the trash : Highlight the object with the right button ( you get a context menu ). Go down select move to trash and there you go. Much faster than dragging it to the trash and less movement. If you have a lot on youir desktop to trow away or in the finder window to trash it's a real time saver.
I know this is simple but it's just an example of what you can do ( save a jpg by right click and select save to disc all with one hand ).
This notion of it being complex is silly. It enhances your computing experience with everything from desktop operations to throwing the knife or second weapon in Soldier Of Fortune 2.
Will sell millions, that's what will happen.
TIP: In Safari Shift+Space to scroll up.
Edit: Ooooops! Thanks, Luca!
Originally posted by ryaxnb
TIP: In Safari Shit+Space to scroll up.
Originally posted by X X
I don't understand the big deal. A two button mouse isn't hindering you from using only one button, but conversely, a one button mouse is preventing you from using a second button.
Very true, probably the wisest comment all thread. Agreed? It my preference for a two button mouse, but if there is a one button, it's not like the control button is hard to access.
I really don't mind for general purposes. When you get into gaming, then the extra button just becomes an extra feature on the feature set of the mac, and can hinder you if there isn't one. But even then, you could get really good using your 'other' hand to switch weapons with the 1-10 keys, and use their extra option with the q or e keys...so either way...it's just a mouse...my opinion, and there always seems to be some sort of way to compensate.
Originally posted by willywalloo
Very true, probably the wisest comment all thread. Agreed? It my preference for a two button mouse, but if there is a one button, it's not like the control button is hard to access.
I really don't mind for general purposes. When you get into gaming, then the extra button just becomes an extra feature on the feature set of the mac, and can hinder you if there isn't one. But even then, you could get really good using your 'other' hand to switch weapons with the 1-10 keys, and use their extra option with the q or e keys...so either way...it's just a mouse...my opinion, and there always seems to be some sort of way to compensate.
Uh have you ever tried throwing a knife while dodging bullets By using the keyboard in SOF 2? It's many times easier with a second button.
With the keyboard you're running with " W ", steering with the mouse, and at the same time throwing the knife with a button on the keyboard ( I used to use the " R " key since it was close ). The second button is not only easier it's quicker.
This way, my non-mousing hand would have something to do, and when I don't need the 2nd mouse button or scrollpad, my hand just rests to the left of the keyboard.
I guess these items would need to be built into both sides of the kb for ambidexterity, but I don't think it would have to make the keyboard that much bigger.
Originally posted by iconmaster
I agree that the one-button mouse is ergonomically superior. But the extra button and scroll wheel would come in very handy. So what should Apple do? Here's what I'd like to see:
This way, my non-mousing hand would have something to do, and when I don't need the 2nd mouse button or scrollpad, my hand just rests to the left of the keyboard.
I guess these items would need to be built into both sides of the kb for ambidexterity, but I don't think it would have to make the keyboard that much bigger.
Then...What's the control+clic for?
Originally posted by raimac
Then...What's the control+clic for?
Same thing it's always been for. After all, Apple could continue to sell a basic keyboard without these additions -- and thus, continue to force developers to accommodate a one-button framework.
The additional key is not a control key -- it inputs the same signal as a right mouse button on a two-button mouse. So, with this setup, your right hand clicks the main mouse button, your left hand clicks the secondary.