That's why I specifically typed "physically" rebuilding. Your attempt at skewing the topic focus is clear now. Your attempt to cover-up that manuever is also evident. It seems that any topic you enter is automatically doomed as you will invariably endeavor to skew the focus until everybody is discussing/arguing over something entirely different. Here's a tip- if you wanted to discuss something else, just start your own topic. It really is that easy. Now run along...
That's why I specifically typed "physically" rebuilding. Your attempt at skewing the topic focus is clear now. Your attempt to cover-up that manuever is also evident. It seems that any topic you enter is automatically doomed as you will invariably endeavor to skew the focus until everybody is discussing/arguing over something entirely different. Here's a tip- if you wanted to discuss something else, just start your own topic. It really is that easy. Now run along...
Iraq has done it before without us and they can do it again. You can pretend like there's no civil society there, and no means of fixing themselves, but it's not true. It's not Afghanistan. You're just avoiding the main point that Iraq can be self-sufficient.
Iraq can be self-sufficient, no doubt, never once have I said that won't happen.
But there is no controlling authority. Iraq was able to do it before because Saddam was the controlling authority. I fully believe that Iraqis could do 99.99999% of the actual work required to rebuild the country. But when it comes to mass-scale rebuilding efforts the most important thing is capital.
Who will pay these people to do the work?
Who will supply them the materials?
Who will have the final say in what mechanical/electrical standards are used?
There is no government or security structure in Iraq if the US just heads out. It is entirely possible that the US drives the rebuilding effort for a time and then turns it over to Iraq to carry on as a strong, prosperous and hopefully somewhat democratic nation.
There is no government or security structure in Iraq if the US just heads out. It is entirely possible that the US drives the rebuilding effort for a time and then turns it over to Iraq to carry on as a strong, prosperous and hopefully somewhat democratic nation.
No one is talking about driving the US out. That's not healthy unless there is a controlling authority to replace them. But, the US has access to the information it needs to use Iraq to rebuild Iraq and they're ignoring it.
Why would you bring up the US heading out? Are you trying to say that either the US sells everything to US companies or they leave? There's absolutely no middle ground? That's not an honest position to take. There is a viable middle ground that the US is ignoring.
Expediency and a clear chain of operations. No need to reinvent the wheel to get the wheel rolling again.
...and btw, you should note that there actually are people in this topic who have expressed a wish that the US should be heading out ASAP. Groverat didn't just synthesize that notion out of thin air.
Could someone please review the "America's getting rich out of Iraq" part of this thread. I don't get it. The US is spending a lot of money and is not getting much back in return and so how are we getting "rich" again?
Could someone please review the "America's getting rich out of Iraq" part of this thread. I don't get it. The US is spending a lot of money and is not getting much back in return and so how are we getting "rich" again?
Expediency and a clear chain of operations. No need to reinvent the wheel to get the wheel rolling again.
...and btw, you should note that there actually are people in this topic who have expressed a wish that the US should be heading out ASAP. Groverat didn't just synthesize that notion out of thin air.
No need to reinvent the wheel? They why cut the Iraqis out of Iraq and bring in companies that don't already exist in Iraq? I'd say Bush is reinventing the wheel.
No one is arguing for a complete removal of a controlling authority as groverat suggested.
Bunge how's Iraq supposed to rebuild when the companies that can rebuild are nonfunctional?
See if you can noodle out how many companies in the world are capable of rebuilding something like a .... electrical grid with several power stations, or an oil production pumping system that has been in disrepair for 15 (?) years? I'm going to take a wild guess that there's not many and none in Iraq.
Of course had the US done what you suggest then you'd be here crying over the "delay" of rebuilding because the US is unwilling to help in a real way. Or some such anti-american nonsense.
(a)___ According to Iraqi engineers interviewed by The Washington Post in late April 2003, Iraq was fully capable of rebuilding all of the country?s damaged buildings within one year._ But U.S. officials refused to meet with the employees of the Ministry of Housing and Construction to discuss their role in rebuilding Iraq. As a result, the ministry?s engineers went to Mohammed Mohsen Zubaidi, the self-appointed mayor of Baghdad, whom the U.S. refused to recognize. [Washington Post, 4/26/03]
(2)__ Mohammed al-Ani, a telecommunications engineer.
(a)___ ?We could repair a lot of the phone network, but we are not allowed to do anything. The sanctions may be gone, but we are under occupation. It will be an American company which restores the phones.? [Telegraph, 5/23/03]
(3)__ Ghazi Sabir-Ali, the former chairman and managing director of Iraq?s North Oil Company in Kirkuk
(a)___ In an op-ed piece published by the Guardian of London, Sabir-Ali wrote that the men who had helped rebuild Iraq after the first Gulf War were still in Iraq and_ ?capable, as they were in 1991, of planning and executing the necessary repairs to our battered country, if they are given a free hand.? He added: ?There is no need for foreign companies to take control. Iraqi oil revenue. Iraqi oil revenue should go to Iraqis, who should then be left in peace to set their country to rights.? [Guardian, 8/1/03]
See if you can noodle out how many companies in the world are capable of rebuilding something like a .... electrical grid with several power stations, or an oil production pumping system that has been in disrepair for 15 (?) years? I'm going to take a wild guess that there's not many and none in Iraq.
They may feel they can do it but it does not mean they can. You know, like, I work with a guy that thinks he does a good job but the fact is we'd be better off paying him not to come in.
But I'm still looking for the whole "America getting rich" answer.
Comments
Originally posted by giant
Hey, remember groverat going on and on before the war about how Iraqis can govern themselves?
How did you go from "physically building infrastructure" to "governing"? Topic drift? Look at the original topic and start posting in like.
Originally posted by Randycat99
How did you go from "physically building infrastructure" to "governing"? Topic drift? Look at the original topic and start posting in like.
Oh I see. Iraqis are to incompetent to rebuild roads and power plants. Thanks for clearing that up. What was I thinking?
Maybe once we get them out of those grass skirts and canoes they will be able to run their country.
Originally posted by giant
Oh I see. Iraqis are to incompetent to rebuild roads and power plants. Thanks for clearing that up. What was I thinking?
Maybe once we get them out of those grass skirts and canoes they will be able to run their country.
I see you still evaded the question. So satire seems to be all you have left.
Originally posted by Randycat99
I see you still evaded the question. So satire seems to be all you have left.
What's the primary job of the governing body right now? If you said rebuilding and policing, you get a cookie.
Originally posted by Randycat99
That's why I specifically typed "physically" rebuilding.
I see you won't be needing that cookie.
Iraq has done it before without us and they can do it again. You can pretend like there's no civil society there, and no means of fixing themselves, but it's not true. It's not Afghanistan. You're just avoiding the main point that Iraq can be self-sufficient.
Iraq can be self-sufficient, no doubt, never once have I said that won't happen.
But there is no controlling authority. Iraq was able to do it before because Saddam was the controlling authority. I fully believe that Iraqis could do 99.99999% of the actual work required to rebuild the country. But when it comes to mass-scale rebuilding efforts the most important thing is capital.
Who will pay these people to do the work?
Who will supply them the materials?
Who will have the final say in what mechanical/electrical standards are used?
There is no government or security structure in Iraq if the US just heads out. It is entirely possible that the US drives the rebuilding effort for a time and then turns it over to Iraq to carry on as a strong, prosperous and hopefully somewhat democratic nation.
Originally posted by groverat
There is no government or security structure in Iraq if the US just heads out. It is entirely possible that the US drives the rebuilding effort for a time and then turns it over to Iraq to carry on as a strong, prosperous and hopefully somewhat democratic nation.
No one is talking about driving the US out. That's not healthy unless there is a controlling authority to replace them. But, the US has access to the information it needs to use Iraq to rebuild Iraq and they're ignoring it.
Why would you bring up the US heading out? Are you trying to say that either the US sells everything to US companies or they leave? There's absolutely no middle ground? That's not an honest position to take. There is a viable middle ground that the US is ignoring.
...and btw, you should note that there actually are people in this topic who have expressed a wish that the US should be heading out ASAP. Groverat didn't just synthesize that notion out of thin air.
Originally posted by Scott
Could someone please review the "America's getting rich out of Iraq" part of this thread. I don't get it. The US is spending a lot of money and is not getting much back in return and so how are we getting "rich" again?
Something to do with sand. I'm sure of it.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Expediency and a clear chain of operations. No need to reinvent the wheel to get the wheel rolling again.
...and btw, you should note that there actually are people in this topic who have expressed a wish that the US should be heading out ASAP. Groverat didn't just synthesize that notion out of thin air.
No need to reinvent the wheel? They why cut the Iraqis out of Iraq and bring in companies that don't already exist in Iraq? I'd say Bush is reinventing the wheel.
No one is arguing for a complete removal of a controlling authority as groverat suggested.
Originally posted by bunge
No need to reinvent the wheel? They why cut the Iraqis out of Iraq and bring in companies that don't already exist in Iraq?
Riiiight, just look'em up in the Iraqi yellow pages?
Quote:
I'd say Bush is reinventing the wheel.
I cannot help you if that is all you can see.
Quote:
No one is arguing for a complete removal of a controlling authority as groverat suggested.
So says you. The record of posts in this topic would suggest otherwise.
See if you can noodle out how many companies in the world are capable of rebuilding something like a .... electrical grid with several power stations, or an oil production pumping system that has been in disrepair for 15 (?) years? I'm going to take a wild guess that there's not many and none in Iraq.
Of course had the US done what you suggest then you'd be here crying over the "delay" of rebuilding because the US is unwilling to help in a real way. Or some such anti-american nonsense.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Riiiight, just look'em up in the Iraqi yellow pages?
Yeah, loin cloths and grass skirts.
Originally posted by Scott
I'm going to take a wild guess that there's not many and none in Iraq.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that your guess is wrong.
One thing is for sure, US companies aren't the only ones that can.
(A)_ Reports and statements.
(1)__ Iraqi engineers.
(a)___ According to Iraqi engineers interviewed by The Washington Post in late April 2003, Iraq was fully capable of rebuilding all of the country?s damaged buildings within one year._ But U.S. officials refused to meet with the employees of the Ministry of Housing and Construction to discuss their role in rebuilding Iraq. As a result, the ministry?s engineers went to Mohammed Mohsen Zubaidi, the self-appointed mayor of Baghdad, whom the U.S. refused to recognize. [Washington Post, 4/26/03]
(2)__ Mohammed al-Ani, a telecommunications engineer.
(a)___ ?We could repair a lot of the phone network, but we are not allowed to do anything. The sanctions may be gone, but we are under occupation. It will be an American company which restores the phones.? [Telegraph, 5/23/03]
(3)__ Ghazi Sabir-Ali, the former chairman and managing director of Iraq?s North Oil Company in Kirkuk
(a)___ In an op-ed piece published by the Guardian of London, Sabir-Ali wrote that the men who had helped rebuild Iraq after the first Gulf War were still in Iraq and_ ?capable, as they were in 1991, of planning and executing the necessary repairs to our battered country, if they are given a free hand.? He added: ?There is no need for foreign companies to take control. Iraqi oil revenue. Iraqi oil revenue should go to Iraqis, who should then be left in peace to set their country to rights.? [Guardian, 8/1/03]
From CCR
Originally posted by Scott
See if you can noodle out how many companies in the world are capable of rebuilding something like a .... electrical grid with several power stations, or an oil production pumping system that has been in disrepair for 15 (?) years? I'm going to take a wild guess that there's not many and none in Iraq.
Start by looking here.
But I'm still looking for the whole "America getting rich" answer.