I don't think that anyone is even close. I don't think that the 20 year ad will have anything to do with computing.
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.
<strong>I don't think that anyone is even close. I don't think that the 20 year ad will have anything to do with computing.
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you mean a powerpod? maybe..but this wouldnt be too innovative..and the tivo thing is too complicated...we dont even have tivo in europe
<strong>I don't think that anyone is even close. I don't think that the 20 year ad will have anything to do with computing.
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would i want to watch a tape recorded show on a 5x7 (if) screen? I just dont see a market for it. There's the portable DVD player and I have never seen anyone with it, so they can't be selling well. If it's an iPod offspring, it better be a lot bigger then that for a 3 million dollar superbowl ad. It will be more of a stoyline then a Jeff Goldblum spinning product on silly white background.
I'd love to see a anti-PC or wondows ad of sorts. Kinda like the Hal commercial "arn't you glad you got a mac Dave" or something that says 'you're an idiot if you buy a pc with windows installed'.
I have often gotten mad at my car CD player (for being crap) and wishing it wasn't crap. I have one CD that has the outside half of the disc clear and part of the design goes out into it, but my car CD player (along with any slot-loading computers) hate these. One time my car stereo ate it and refused to eject it, or even see that it was in there. I had to take the whole damn thing apart, the whole time saying "I wish Apple made a car stereo system, then I could know how to fix it, if it broke"...
Too bad that wouldn't happen, or maybe it's a good thing. I don't know how Apple would do as a Sony-style company. I'm sure they would be great at it, but I don't know how the market would take it.
After the Macintosh, steve moved onto NexT, which apart from a relitavely loyal developer base, was dead for the most part. Mac OSX is Next re-incarnated. 10.2 is where the true revolution in GUI is, with a fully 3D accelerated desktop. We havent even been given a taste of whats possible with this technology (Quartz Extreme), 3D icons anyone ? minimizing windows that move to a dock located 'into' the desktop ? etc.... ms dosent have that yet, and i think thats where Apple will present it's most innovative UI development in the next 12 months. The technology is there....now it's upto the UI ppl to make it happen imo.
<strong>After the Macintosh, steve moved onto NexT, which apart from a relitavely loyal developer base, was dead for the most part. Mac OSX is Next re-incarnated. 10.2 is where the true revolution in GUI is, with a fully 3D accelerated desktop. We havent even been given a taste of whats possible with this technology (Quartz Extreme), 3D icons anyone ? minimizing windows that move to a dock located 'into' the desktop ? etc.... ms dosent have that yet, and i think thats where Apple will present it's most innovative UI development in the next 12 months. The technology is there....now it's upto the UI ppl to make it happen imo.
Cheers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not too hard of a concept, I don't think interface changes are related to any grand 2004 announcement. UI enhancements are most likely just going to be a 'feature' of 10.3. If there is going to be another 'insanely great' thing, it would be much more amazing than a more 3D UI. If Apple is requesting an ad with more impact than the 1984 ad, it's not for 3D icons.
Personally, I think that a 3D UI would add as much too the User Experience as the Genie effect does: it sells Macs, but provides no actual benifit to the professional user. I am still waiting for a skin/theme without pulsing, zooming, etc.: an interface like Finalcut.
I've been thinking: What is an area that Apple can provide an absolute breakthrough in? And I think that it is to come up with a new strategy that is as revolutionary as the Digital Hub. Maybe a "Total Home Network"? I don't know.
<strong>He also opined that he had one more computer (read: platform) left in him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That quote is from an infamous behind-the-scenes book about the history of Apple (the title evades me at the moment) and is ascribed to Steve Jobs. Apparently it was his main reason for wanting to go on an indefinite LOA from Apple - and the computer referred to turned out to be NeXT. Today we are seeing the amalgamation of "his" two great computers....
The initial reason for his wanting a LOA was to avoid being kicked off the board, having completely undermined development work done on the Mac family (incidentally, the Mac wasn't "his" idea at first; he was commandeered to go work there and then took over the whole thing).
History shows that SJ has mellowed and matured considerably since then.... luckily...
And this next Anniversary Mac will be a very diferent beast from the first one - in all but its visionary statement of where the computer concept will be going over the next decade...
Macintosh Omega? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> And anyway, the only real computers in 1976 were the NASA mainframes. Good idea, though. But I like my idea better.
(Zooming and panning around the beautiful Powermac 970 casing)
(Narration) The all-new Powermac 970. With a warp speed processor brought to you by the company that kicked Kasparov's little ass in the most important chess game in history, that pitted man against machine in a sport of intellect. But the Powermac 970 works with man, not against him. (Fade out)
[quote] I'd love to see a anti-PC or wondows ad of sorts. Kinda like the Hal commercial "arn't you glad you got a mac Dave" or something that says 'you're an idiot if you buy a pc with windows installed'.
<strong>That quote is from an infamous behind-the-scenes book about the history of Apple (the title evades me at the moment) and is ascribed to Steve Jobs. Apparently it was his main reason for wanting to go on an indefinite LOA from Apple</strong><hr></blockquote>
That quote was from Apple Confidential, by Owen Linzmayer. And actually, I think it was referring to him wanting to have Apple listen to him. At around the time that Spindler was Apple CEO (or maybe it was shortly after Amelio took control) he said that he had a plan to save Apple, but no one would listen to him (in retrospect, his plan was probably the "Digital Hub" idea).
Amorph's interpretation struck me as odd, since I always thought that the computer he referred to when he said "I've got one more left in me" was the iMac.
Joining in the speculation:
I agree with the other people who say that the big 2004 SuperBowl announcement is going to be the 970 + 10.3. To me, the transition to the 970 is going to be every bit as revolutionary as the original Power Macs were to the 68k generation.
Of course if the new PB's were any indication, they'll probably come out with something we would have sworn they wouldn't release (i.e. Apple PDA, stereoscopic displays + 3D GUI, etc).
Or perhaps, maybe a ressurected Cube? After all, Steve did say that they'd bring the Cube back one day...right?
That quote was from Apple Confidential, by Owen Linzmayer. And actually, I think it was referring to him wanting to have Apple listen to him. At around the time that Spindler was Apple CEO (or maybe it was shortly after Amelio took control) he said that he had a plan to save Apple, but no one would listen to him (in retrospect, his plan was probably the "Digital Hub" idea).
Amorph's interpretation struck me as odd, since I always thought that the computer he referred to when he said "I've got one more left in me" was the iMac. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That doesn't really make sense, though, partly because (of course) he's kept right on going after the iMac's introduction (and reintroduction) and partly because the iMac was just a restatement of the original Mac.
I've taken Steve to mean "platform" when he says "computer," because he thinks in terms of whole widgets. The AIO is an obvious consequence of that ethos. The difference between the next computer (heh) and the previous ones (Apple I, II, III, Macintosh and NeXT) is that rather than being an abrupt, incompatible changeover it'll be a transformation of the Macintosh into a new model over time, so as to preserve the legacy user base and thus give the new platform an immediate and substantial sales and software base that it wouldn't otherwise have. We've been witnessing this transformation for the last few years. It was held up first by OS 9, and then by the immaturity of OS X and (to a lesser extent) by the G4. Now, however, things will start to get interesting.
[quote]<strong>I agree with the other people who say that the big 2004 SuperBowl announcement is going to be the 970 + 10.3. To me, the transition to the 970 is going to be every bit as revolutionary as the original Power Macs were to the 68k generation. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't agree. The 970 and 10.3 will undoubtedly be part of the revolution, but think about the 1984 ad: It did not identify a product. It was a declaration of independence, if you will, that resonated deeply with people. If anything, Microsoft's monopoly is worse than IBM's was in 1984 — it's certainly no better — and corporate IT is not so different from the infamous "white-robed priesthood" that the personal computer was supposed to overthrow. The PC is so utterly stagnant that even MS is trying to find a way to pull its platform out of the commodity realm at least partially (tablets, XBox, etc.). The time is ripe for another ad with the same primal power that the 1984 ad carried, priming people for Apple's next radical restatement of what a personal computer can — and should — be capable of.
I'm 100% sure that it won't attack PC users. That's what the infamous "Lemmings" ad did. Granted that anyone who's had to wrestle with IT will find it incredibly funny, and granted that it rings painfully true 18 years later; but it insulted and alienated a lot of IT people, and that didn't help any. Apple is currently courting IT, so howevermuch Steve might think of them as lemmings inconviencing their users for the sake of their own job security — and howevermuch that might, in fact, be true — it's not going to air as an advertizement.
[quote]<strong>Or perhaps, maybe a ressurected Cube? After all, Steve did say that they'd bring the Cube back one day...right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Cube is "on ice," and the basic idea is definitely sound. Look at the success of the various mini-PCs (including notebooks) now that people are beginning to realize that, for nearly all contemporary needs, including professional needs, you don't need a big, ungainly tower anymore.
Steve tellingly called the Cube "the ultimate OS X workstation." I'm sure we'll see something very much like it, because the idea of a small, quiet, powerful and stunning workstation is deeply appealing.
But Steve thinks holistically, if you will, so if he's planning another 1984 ad it's because he's got something ready to go on all fronts. Individual products can be introduced in keynotes and Apple Events. Even the iMac didn't get a Super Bowl ad.
[quote] The Cube is "on ice," and the basic idea is definitely sound. Look at the success of the various mini-PCs (including notebooks) now that people are beginning to realize that, for nearly all contemporary needs, including professional needs, you don't need a big, ungainly tower anymore.
Steve tellingly called the Cube "the ultimate OS X workstation." I'm sure we'll see something very much like it, because the idea of a small, quiet, powerful and stunning workstation is deeply appealing.
But Steve thinks holistically, if you will, so if he's planning another 1984 ad it's because he's got something ready to go on all fronts. Individual products can be introduced in keynotes and Apple Events. Even the iMac didn't get a Super Bowl ad.
<hr></blockquote>
I tend to agree.
The Cube would make one hell of a gorgeous 'X' workstation. You're right. The basic idea is sound. And there is alot of space in an Apple tower... I'd happily see a bigger Cube design (for standard components etc...) mini-tower replace the current tower design. Maybe the Tower can be kept for an Apple Uber workstation line...
Recalling the Apple Ad' the first time round...it certainly had an impact on me. It's a statement of identity...intent. Once all the pieces are in place (10.3, 970, faster CPU in desktop/laptop lines..., tablet, powerpod...and 'more and more software...' and loads more retail stores....)
....then...then a 'Superbowl' anniversary of the Mac ad' might make an awful lot of sense. (Especially in light of Intel/M$'s bigger brother is watching you Palladium strategy...and, ironically, business getting fed up of M$ extortion...)
And when the economy rebounds...this time Apple are well placed and I'd say 'better placed' to take advantage of that awareness and with the retail stores...people know where to find them!
A superbowl ad' vs the Macworld Boston budget? I'd take the superbowl this time.
They still kind of have the structure of an 8 Billion dollar company..?
Like Amorph says, things are about to get interesting this time. Round 2 in the Apple vs M$.
Comments
i dont know how they will top this....
it has to be something EARTH SHATTERING <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.
<strong>I don't think that anyone is even close. I don't think that the 20 year ad will have anything to do with computing.
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you mean a powerpod? maybe..but this wouldnt be too innovative..and the tivo thing is too complicated...we dont even have tivo in europe
organic display?
Ranier Wolfcastle drives up in his hummer...
Marge: "What kind of gas mileage does it get?"
Ranier: "1 highway, 0 city"
<strong>I don't think that anyone is even close. I don't think that the 20 year ad will have anything to do with computing.
The biggest home-run that Jobs has hit has been the iPod. Critical acclaim, big sales, undeniably best of class.
In 1984, Jobs took on computing and personalized it. My suspicion is that in 2004, he will take on the consumer eletronics giant by bringing in the next generation iPod.
We all know about the rumoured video capabilities of the next generation. We have heard about the deals with TIVO to support Rendezvous. I suspect that the next big Apple breakthrough product will be an iPod that can hook up to your TIVO, allowing you to carry not only music, but personal and broadcast video (d/l'ed from the TIVO) anywhere you want to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would i want to watch a tape recorded show on a 5x7 (if) screen? I just dont see a market for it. There's the portable DVD player and I have never seen anyone with it, so they can't be selling well. If it's an iPod offspring, it better be a lot bigger then that for a 3 million dollar superbowl ad. It will be more of a stoyline then a Jeff Goldblum spinning product on silly white background.
I'd love to see a anti-PC or wondows ad of sorts. Kinda like the Hal commercial "arn't you glad you got a mac Dave" or something that says 'you're an idiot if you buy a pc with windows installed'.
<strong>organic display?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Carrot Vision!
I have often gotten mad at my car CD player (for being crap) and wishing it wasn't crap. I have one CD that has the outside half of the disc clear and part of the design goes out into it, but my car CD player (along with any slot-loading computers) hate these. One time my car stereo ate it and refused to eject it, or even see that it was in there. I had to take the whole damn thing apart, the whole time saying "I wish Apple made a car stereo system, then I could know how to fix it, if it broke"...
Too bad that wouldn't happen, or maybe it's a good thing. I don't know how Apple would do as a Sony-style company. I'm sure they would be great at it, but I don't know how the market would take it.
Cheers.
<strong>After the Macintosh, steve moved onto NexT, which apart from a relitavely loyal developer base, was dead for the most part. Mac OSX is Next re-incarnated. 10.2 is where the true revolution in GUI is, with a fully 3D accelerated desktop. We havent even been given a taste of whats possible with this technology (Quartz Extreme), 3D icons anyone ? minimizing windows that move to a dock located 'into' the desktop ? etc.... ms dosent have that yet, and i think thats where Apple will present it's most innovative UI development in the next 12 months. The technology is there....now it's upto the UI ppl to make it happen imo.
Cheers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not too hard of a concept, I don't think interface changes are related to any grand 2004 announcement. UI enhancements are most likely just going to be a 'feature' of 10.3. If there is going to be another 'insanely great' thing, it would be much more amazing than a more 3D UI. If Apple is requesting an ad with more impact than the 1984 ad, it's not for 3D icons.
<strong>He also opined that he had one more computer (read: platform) left in him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That quote is from an infamous behind-the-scenes book about the history of Apple (the title evades me at the moment) and is ascribed to Steve Jobs. Apparently it was his main reason for wanting to go on an indefinite LOA from Apple - and the computer referred to turned out to be NeXT. Today we are seeing the amalgamation of "his" two great computers....
The initial reason for his wanting a LOA was to avoid being kicked off the board, having completely undermined development work done on the Mac family (incidentally, the Mac wasn't "his" idea at first; he was commandeered to go work there and then took over the whole thing).
History shows that SJ has mellowed and matured considerably since then.... luckily...
And this next Anniversary Mac will be a very diferent beast from the first one - in all but its visionary statement of where the computer concept will be going over the next decade...
engpjp
Macintosh.
SOUND:
Seventies music montage, under.
PICTURE:
Close up of calandar: April 9, 1972
Quick montage of moon shots and history.
Fade out to..
Slow truck in to an ECU of a splendid new Mac computer.
NARRATION (over):
"Introducing the new Macintosh Omega. One computer with the power of every computer on Earth on April 9, 1972."
Fade to black.
TITLE:
Macintosh. Power.
[ 03-14-2003: Message edited by: shawk ]</p>
(Zooming and panning around the beautiful Powermac 970 casing)
(Narration) The all-new Powermac 970. With a warp speed processor brought to you by the company that kicked Kasparov's little ass in the most important chess game in history, that pitted man against machine in a sport of intellect. But the Powermac 970 works with man, not against him. (Fade out)
Try to contain your envy.
<hr></blockquote>
Agreed.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>That quote is from an infamous behind-the-scenes book about the history of Apple (the title evades me at the moment) and is ascribed to Steve Jobs. Apparently it was his main reason for wanting to go on an indefinite LOA from Apple</strong><hr></blockquote>
That quote was from Apple Confidential, by Owen Linzmayer. And actually, I think it was referring to him wanting to have Apple listen to him. At around the time that Spindler was Apple CEO (or maybe it was shortly after Amelio took control) he said that he had a plan to save Apple, but no one would listen to him (in retrospect, his plan was probably the "Digital Hub" idea).
Amorph's interpretation struck me as odd, since I always thought that the computer he referred to when he said "I've got one more left in me" was the iMac.
Joining in the speculation:
I agree with the other people who say that the big 2004 SuperBowl announcement is going to be the 970 + 10.3. To me, the transition to the 970 is going to be every bit as revolutionary as the original Power Macs were to the 68k generation.
Of course if the new PB's were any indication, they'll probably come out with something we would have sworn they wouldn't release (i.e. Apple PDA, stereoscopic displays + 3D GUI, etc).
Or perhaps, maybe a ressurected Cube? After all, Steve did say that they'd bring the Cube back one day...right?
<strong>
That quote was from Apple Confidential, by Owen Linzmayer. And actually, I think it was referring to him wanting to have Apple listen to him. At around the time that Spindler was Apple CEO (or maybe it was shortly after Amelio took control) he said that he had a plan to save Apple, but no one would listen to him (in retrospect, his plan was probably the "Digital Hub" idea).
Amorph's interpretation struck me as odd, since I always thought that the computer he referred to when he said "I've got one more left in me" was the iMac. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That doesn't really make sense, though, partly because (of course) he's kept right on going after the iMac's introduction (and reintroduction) and partly because the iMac was just a restatement of the original Mac.
I've taken Steve to mean "platform" when he says "computer," because he thinks in terms of whole widgets. The AIO is an obvious consequence of that ethos. The difference between the next computer (heh) and the previous ones (Apple I, II, III, Macintosh and NeXT) is that rather than being an abrupt, incompatible changeover it'll be a transformation of the Macintosh into a new model over time, so as to preserve the legacy user base and thus give the new platform an immediate and substantial sales and software base that it wouldn't otherwise have. We've been witnessing this transformation for the last few years. It was held up first by OS 9, and then by the immaturity of OS X and (to a lesser extent) by the G4. Now, however, things will start to get interesting.
[quote]<strong>I agree with the other people who say that the big 2004 SuperBowl announcement is going to be the 970 + 10.3. To me, the transition to the 970 is going to be every bit as revolutionary as the original Power Macs were to the 68k generation. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't agree. The 970 and 10.3 will undoubtedly be part of the revolution, but think about the 1984 ad: It did not identify a product. It was a declaration of independence, if you will, that resonated deeply with people. If anything, Microsoft's monopoly is worse than IBM's was in 1984 — it's certainly no better — and corporate IT is not so different from the infamous "white-robed priesthood" that the personal computer was supposed to overthrow. The PC is so utterly stagnant that even MS is trying to find a way to pull its platform out of the commodity realm at least partially (tablets, XBox, etc.). The time is ripe for another ad with the same primal power that the 1984 ad carried, priming people for Apple's next radical restatement of what a personal computer can — and should — be capable of.
I'm 100% sure that it won't attack PC users. That's what the infamous "Lemmings" ad did. Granted that anyone who's had to wrestle with IT will find it incredibly funny, and granted that it rings painfully true 18 years later; but it insulted and alienated a lot of IT people, and that didn't help any. Apple is currently courting IT, so howevermuch Steve might think of them as lemmings inconviencing their users for the sake of their own job security — and howevermuch that might, in fact, be true — it's not going to air as an advertizement.
[quote]<strong>Or perhaps, maybe a ressurected Cube? After all, Steve did say that they'd bring the Cube back one day...right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Cube is "on ice," and the basic idea is definitely sound. Look at the success of the various mini-PCs (including notebooks) now that people are beginning to realize that, for nearly all contemporary needs, including professional needs, you don't need a big, ungainly tower anymore.
Steve tellingly called the Cube "the ultimate OS X workstation." I'm sure we'll see something very much like it, because the idea of a small, quiet, powerful and stunning workstation is deeply appealing.
But Steve thinks holistically, if you will, so if he's planning another 1984 ad it's because he's got something ready to go on all fronts. Individual products can be introduced in keynotes and Apple Events. Even the iMac didn't get a Super Bowl ad.
Steve tellingly called the Cube "the ultimate OS X workstation." I'm sure we'll see something very much like it, because the idea of a small, quiet, powerful and stunning workstation is deeply appealing.
But Steve thinks holistically, if you will, so if he's planning another 1984 ad it's because he's got something ready to go on all fronts. Individual products can be introduced in keynotes and Apple Events. Even the iMac didn't get a Super Bowl ad.
<hr></blockquote>
I tend to agree.
The Cube would make one hell of a gorgeous 'X' workstation. You're right. The basic idea is sound. And there is alot of space in an Apple tower... I'd happily see a bigger Cube design (for standard components etc...) mini-tower replace the current tower design. Maybe the Tower can be kept for an Apple Uber workstation line...
Recalling the Apple Ad' the first time round...it certainly had an impact on me. It's a statement of identity...intent. Once all the pieces are in place (10.3, 970, faster CPU in desktop/laptop lines..., tablet, powerpod...and 'more and more software...' and loads more retail stores....)
....then...then a 'Superbowl' anniversary of the Mac ad' might make an awful lot of sense. (Especially in light of Intel/M$'s bigger brother is watching you Palladium strategy...and, ironically, business getting fed up of M$ extortion...)
And when the economy rebounds...this time Apple are well placed and I'd say 'better placed' to take advantage of that awareness and with the retail stores...people know where to find them!
A superbowl ad' vs the Macworld Boston budget? I'd take the superbowl this time.
They still kind of have the structure of an 8 Billion dollar company..?
Like Amorph says, things are about to get interesting this time. Round 2 in the Apple vs M$.
I can't wait.
Lemon Bon Bon <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" />
[ 03-16-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>