180 in North Korea? Was Bush Right?
First off I will be the first to say I have little trust of the North Korean leadership.
That said it may very well be the case that President Bush has led North Korea down a path that will lead to new political cooperation between North Korea and the US along with neighboring countries in asia.
Allow nuclear inspections!!! in North Korea?
This is all about North Korea needing help "simultaneus actions"
I suspect the US will foot most of the bill. If this does work out as stated it could be the begining of a new future for North Korea and be a much needed change in the region. It may be possible that President Bush calling North Korea a part of an "axis of evil" led to where this latest news may end. If Bush by taking a stand against the nuclear ambitions of North Korea has indeed led to a backing down by North Korea in favor of normal ties with neighbors and nuclear inspections being permited I am most impressed. It is early yet and only time will tell.
MSNBC Link
Your thoughts?
Fellowship
That said it may very well be the case that President Bush has led North Korea down a path that will lead to new political cooperation between North Korea and the US along with neighboring countries in asia.
Quote:
In a sudden shift, North Korea said Saturday that it would consider U.S. President George W. Bush?s offer of written security assurances in return for dismantling the communist state?s nuclear weapons programs.
In a sudden shift, North Korea said Saturday that it would consider U.S. President George W. Bush?s offer of written security assurances in return for dismantling the communist state?s nuclear weapons programs.
Quote:
North Korea has already informed Washington of its new intentions through a contact in New York between Bush administration officials and North Korean diplomats at the United Nations, said an unidentified spokesman for Pyongyang?s Foreign Ministry.
North Korea has already informed Washington of its new intentions through a contact in New York between Bush administration officials and North Korean diplomats at the United Nations, said an unidentified spokesman for Pyongyang?s Foreign Ministry.
Quote:
During a Bangkok, Thailand summit of Asia-Pacific leaders earlier this week, Bush proposed that the United States, Russia, South Korea, Japan and China would offer written assurances the North will not be attacked if it promises to dismantle its nuclear program.
_ _ _ _?We are ready to consider Bush?s remarks on the ?written assurances of nonaggression? if they are based on the intention to coexist with the (North)? and offer ?simultaneous actions,? the North Korean spokesman said. By ?simultaneous actions,? North Korea means that the United States will first provide economic and humanitarian aid, sign a nonaggression treaty with Pyongyang, open diplomatic ties and build a nuclear power plant. Meanwhile, North Korea will first declare its willingness to give up nuclear development, allow nuclear inspections, give up missiles exports and finally dismantle its nuclear weapons facilities. Simple and clear is our request,? the North Korean spokesman said. ?What we want is for both sides to drop guns and establish normal state relationship to co-exist peacefully.?
_ _ _ _North Korea was now ?in the process of ascertaining the real intention of the U.S.,? he said.
_ _ _ _U.S. officials pledged to maintain their New York contact with North Koreans, he added.
_ _ _ _South Korea welcomed the North?s comments.
_ _ _ _?This is a positive development ahead of future six-party talks,? said Ban Ki-moon, President Roh Moo-hyun?s adviser on diplomatic affairs, according to South Korea?s Yonhap news agency.
During a Bangkok, Thailand summit of Asia-Pacific leaders earlier this week, Bush proposed that the United States, Russia, South Korea, Japan and China would offer written assurances the North will not be attacked if it promises to dismantle its nuclear program.
_ _ _ _?We are ready to consider Bush?s remarks on the ?written assurances of nonaggression? if they are based on the intention to coexist with the (North)? and offer ?simultaneous actions,? the North Korean spokesman said. By ?simultaneous actions,? North Korea means that the United States will first provide economic and humanitarian aid, sign a nonaggression treaty with Pyongyang, open diplomatic ties and build a nuclear power plant. Meanwhile, North Korea will first declare its willingness to give up nuclear development, allow nuclear inspections, give up missiles exports and finally dismantle its nuclear weapons facilities. Simple and clear is our request,? the North Korean spokesman said. ?What we want is for both sides to drop guns and establish normal state relationship to co-exist peacefully.?
_ _ _ _North Korea was now ?in the process of ascertaining the real intention of the U.S.,? he said.
_ _ _ _U.S. officials pledged to maintain their New York contact with North Koreans, he added.
_ _ _ _South Korea welcomed the North?s comments.
_ _ _ _?This is a positive development ahead of future six-party talks,? said Ban Ki-moon, President Roh Moo-hyun?s adviser on diplomatic affairs, according to South Korea?s Yonhap news agency.
Allow nuclear inspections!!! in North Korea?
This is all about North Korea needing help "simultaneus actions"
I suspect the US will foot most of the bill. If this does work out as stated it could be the begining of a new future for North Korea and be a much needed change in the region. It may be possible that President Bush calling North Korea a part of an "axis of evil" led to where this latest news may end. If Bush by taking a stand against the nuclear ambitions of North Korea has indeed led to a backing down by North Korea in favor of normal ties with neighbors and nuclear inspections being permited I am most impressed. It is early yet and only time will tell.
MSNBC Link
Your thoughts?
Fellowship
Comments
Originally posted by Anders
If an typhoon magically reassembled your car after a man had disassebled it with a sledgehammer would you celebrate him?
Anders the way I see NK is that they have a starving population and they were / are exporting weapons to questionable buyers of any stripe for the purpose of revenue. If they have nuclear weapons they can make an entire region unstable. Keep in mind the conditions in North Korea. So if North Korea has a way out to a respectable "connection" to the rest of the world this may be the moment. I think this could be a new begining. Again it is premature to say and like I said only time will tell.
Fellowship
The nuclear program of NK is a blackmailing agaisnt occident and in particular USA.
The USA has the choice between :
- help economically NK in exchange of the control of the end of the nuclear program, at the risk of helping to survive a bloody dictatorship
- refuse to help them, in order to not save their dictator's ass, at the risk that they effectively put their last pennies in the construction of nuclear bombs.
As you see, there isn't any exciting choice here.
So they volunteered the information that they were in the process of developing nuclear arms, did some rocket test shots and restarted nuclear programs they had given up some years back in exchange for economic aid.
As NK has no known oil fields and even the Rummie/Wolfowitz spin doctors did not come up with an Al Quaida link (a bit too improbable even for them?), the US chose to rather conquer Iraq - a sure sign that NK was off the hook for some time.
Next they demanded a non-aggression treaty with the US, to be signed at bipartisan talks - knowing that GWB would rather congratulate Husseins birthday.
So, instead they get humanitarian aid, a written security assistance and a new nuclear reactor (how cool ist that if you need Plutonium?) instead. GWB's face is saved, the south koreans and japanese are happy too (no imminent war so close to home) and all is well.
Except: this was more of a NK masterpiece and the other participants were puppets on a string. Seems like NK either has nukes already or is not in a state to develop them (with people eating grass, one has to wonder). At any rate, they sacrificed some murky secrecy around their nukes programme to gain a lot less medium-term worries.
People are still starving there, btw.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
It may be possible that President Bush calling North Korea a part of an "axis of evil" led to where this latest news may end. If Bush by taking a stand against the nuclear ambitions of North Korea has indeed led to a backing down by North Korea in favor of normal ties with neighbors and nuclear inspections being permited I am most impressed. It is early yet and only time will tell.
What are you talking about? North Korea is getting exactly what it has wanted from the beginning. The admission that it was producing nuclear weapons served two purposes: to prevent an attack and to force the US and surrounding countries to help it economically. This is just a natural and expected progression of that plan.
Originally posted by Anders
If an typhoon magically reassembled your car after a man had disassebled it with a sledgehammer would you celebrate him?
Unless we want to rewrite history and claim that GWB is the cause of a bad relationship with NK I fail to see what your quote has to do with anything.
I hope were playing them more than they are playing us but I don't think so.
Originally posted by Scott
Anything the US does should only be a move toward ending this country as we know it. There's literally a holocaust happing inside North Korea and anything that prolongs the existence of the current leadership is a slap in face to freedom and human rights.
I hope were playing them more than they are playing us but I don't think so.
How I agree with this statement,,, Of course the Europeans would need to join in the effort to slap out the current regime.
Fellows
Originally posted by Anders
Well I guess even history is relative then.
To an extent, but your analogy was ridiculously off-base.
Our relationship with NK was a disaster before GeeDub even decided to run for president.
Next we're going to say Dubya killed Kennedy.
Originally posted by groverat
To an extent, but your analogy was ridiculously off-base.
Our relationship with NK was a disaster before GeeDub even decided to run for president.
Next we're going to say Dubya killed Kennedy.
Not only that grove but Bush also killed all those who lost their lives in NK due to US policy all these years. It is all due to US policy which is all the fault of Bush.
Had nothing to do with NK policy and leadership,,, (they can't help what they are faced with) It has everything to do with a failed american foreign policy which failed at solving the problems of the entire world with the approval of the europeans at the same time.
Fellowship
How do we tolerate this evil man!?!?!?
Originally posted by Scott
Anything the US does should only be a move toward ending this country as we know it. There's literally a holocaust happing inside North Korea [...]
There is not. Trivializing the holocaust is not going to do any good in respect to the BK debate. It is not only hyperbole, but unhistoric and completely unsavory.
The situation in NK is bad enough without propaganda.
Originally posted by Smircle
There is not. Trivializing the holocaust is not going to do any good in respect to the BK debate. It is not only hyperbole, but unhistoric and completely unsavory.
The situation in NK is bad enough without propaganda.
holocaust is a word and different people assign different words to mean something.
Call it what you want in North Korea:
The regime in North Korea operates approximately 10 concentration or "re-education" camps for political prisoners. The Far Eastern Economic Review has published satellite photographs of one camp that is estimated to hold as many as 50,000 people. The 10 camps are estimated to hold between 200,000 to 250,000 prisoners in total. The regime uses the camps to punish anyone who fails to adhere strictly and completely to every "law," but arrest and confinement can come at any time with no explanation. In some reports, people have been arrested and detained for years for failing to show appropriate respect to the "Great Leader" or the "Dear Leader." In other cases, entire families have been arrested because flaws have been found in their family history.
The camps differ in that each serves a specific type of prisoner generally ranging from those considered "redeemable" to those who are "expendable." Those who are redeemable are often released after a number of years of hard labor and re-education. Expendable prisoners are never expected to leave the camp and usually die of malnutrition, exhaustion, and abuse. Two recent books provide graphic explanations of deplorable conditions in the more "lenient" re-education camps: Aquariums of Pyongyang by Kang chol-Hwan and Eyes of Tailless Animals by Soon Ok Lee. Torture is wide spread along with gradual starvation from the minimal food rations.
"expendable" sounds pretty sad to me.. not to mention that 10% of the population died due to famine in the 90's 2 and 1/2 million.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Smircle
There is not. Trivializing the holocaust is not going to do any good in respect to the BK debate. It is not only hyperbole, but unhistoric and completely unsavory.
The situation in NK is bad enough without propaganda.
Very strictly speaking the term holocaust would require the use of fire to get rid of the dead. There is some proof to justify this is the case.
Here
TESTIMONY: Kyo-hwa-so No. 12, Jeonger-ri, North Hamgyong Province
Sometimes also called Onsong-kun kyo-hwa-so, although it is not located there, Kyohwa-so No. 12 at Jeonger-ri holds some 1,300 to 1,500 men, who mine copper and iron, cut logs, make bricks, and farm. The most salient features of Kyo-hwa-so No. 12, according to Former Prisoner #28, were the deplorable conditions and the high rates of deaths in detention. Out of twenty-three other prisoners who entered on the same day as Former Prisoner #28, only two survived. The rest died within eight months of arrival, from hard labor and sub-subsistence food rations ? small mixtures of corn and beans, with rice added only on holidays. Former Prisoner #28 believes that eight hundred prisoners died while he was there ? so many, according to what another prisoner told him, that the guards had to burn the corpses. Former Prisoner #28 says he weighed 50 kilograms (110 pounds) prior to his arrest and only 30 kilograms (66 pounds) upon his release from Kyo-hwa-so No. 12.
Certainly not the same level as the nazis but this is just one account. Given the sever treatment in the North Korean death camps and the extremely prolonged time this has been going on I think they poor people of North Korea have "earned" a place along side the victims of Europe's "final solution".
So IMO it's not "hyperbole" or "propaganda" but something that needs to be put in the proper prospective. Which I think I have.
LEE Young Kuk reported that he was subjected to motionless-kneeling and water torture and facial and shin beatings with rifle butts at the Kuk-ga-bo-wi-buinterrogation/detention facility in Pyongyang in 1994, leaving permanent damage in one ear, double vision in one eye, and his shins still bruised and discolored as of late 2002.
Former Detainee#1 was beaten unconscious for hunger-related rule infractions in 1997 at the Nongpo jip-kyul-so(detention center) in Chongjin City. He also reported that detainees there were beaten with shovels if they did not work fast enough.
KIM Sung Min reported that in 1997 at the Onsong bo-wi-bu(National Security Agency) detention center, his fingers were broken and he was kicked and beaten on the head and face until his ears, eyes, nose, and mouth bled.
LEE Soon Ok reported that she experienced beatings, strappings, and water torture leading to loss of consciousness, and was held outside in freezing January weather at the Chongjin In-min-bo-an-seongpre-trial detention center in 1986. Her account of beatings and brutalities in the early to middle 1990s at Kaechon women?s prison, Kyo-hwa-soNo. 1, (in her prison memoirs) are too numerous to detail here.
KIM Yong reported that he was beaten at the bo-wi-bupolice jail at Maram and was subjected to water torture and hung by his wrists in the bo-wi-bupolice jail at Moonsu in 1993.
JI Hae Nam confirmed the existence of miniature punishment cells at Kyo-hwa-so No. 1 and reported that beatings and kicking of women prisoners were a daily occurrence in the mid-1990s. She also reported beatings, during interrogation or for prison regulation infractions, in late 1999 at the Sinuiju bo-wi-bujail, where she was required to kneel motionless, hit with broomsticks, and required to do stand-up/sit-down repetitions to the point of collapse, in her case in thirty to forty minutes.
Former Detainee #21 reported that she was beaten unconscious in mid-1999 at the In-min-bo-an-seong(People?s Safety Agency) ku-ryu-jang(detention/interrogation facility) at Onsong, where detainees were beaten so badly that they confessed to doing things they had not done. Women were hit on their fingertips. She witnessed one very ill woman who was compelled to do stand-up/sit-down repetitions until she died.
Former Detainee #21 reported two baby killings at the Onsong In-min-bo-anseong(People?s Safety Agency) police station in late 1999.
Former Detainee #24 helped deliver seven babies who were killed at the Backtori, South Sinuiju In-min-bo-an-seongpolice detention center in January 2000.
CHOI Yong Hwa assisted in the delivery of babies, three of whom were promptly killed, at the Sinuiju do-jip-kyul-so(provincial detention center) in mid-2000.
Very sad
Originally posted by Scott
Certainly not the same level as the nazis but this is just one account. Given the sever treatment in the North Korean death camps and the extremely prolonged time this has been going on I think they poor people of North Korea have "earned" a place along side the victims of Europe's "final solution".
So IMO it's not "hyperbole" or "propaganda" but something that needs to be put in the proper prospective. Which I think I have.
And here, I beg to differ.
When we are talking about the nazi-holocaust, we are talking about millions and millions killed in death camps - numbers that at least seem to be very far from the body count in NK.
Furthermore, the nazi KZs were designed as death camps, the inmates were not just expendable but destined to be worked to death.
Furthermore, the nazis set out to conquer at least the rest of Europe if not the whole world. NK has show rather little territorial aggression yet.
This is not about belitteling what is going on in NK, I am not an apologist of the regime. But I hate it that people are constantly attaching the most frightening stickers to anything that bugs them.
Like Iraq is not just a military blunder, it has to be a "second vietnam". Iraqi occupation of Kuweit was not just evil, we had to have the stories of babies ripped from incubators. Israeli occupation of the palestine? Genocide, accept no less. Milosevitch? Hitler of the Balkans. Hussein? Dictator AND WoMD AND ready in 15min AND Al Quaida.
This blurs some distinctions and makes it harder to come to rational instead of emotional conclusions. Which is a bad thing when we are talking about war and peace issues.
I just hate this black/white bullshit.