I can't say I'm stunned at all when I look at the big picture. I expect InDesign, Go Live and Acrobat for Macs to be orphaned soon enough. I don't expect any new products to come out for Macs either, only updates to current ones, and those to drop off as well in the next 3-5 years.
At some point a lot of us are going to have to choose between Macs or Adobe products once and for all.
I don't think Adobe will abandon like 30% of their income (Adobe CS Studio apps). Macs are still very strong in creative businesses.
It's easy to think when a company kills an app that their support is fading, but one application is not another. Adobe would be stupid to end Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign/Acrobat for Mac. It's still a cash cow, and they only want to make money.
GoLive is a different story. In a way it's a bit orphaned since Adobe bought it from the German firm who originaly made it (Mac only !), including the Windows version. Everyone works with Dreamweaver or -yes - Frontpage.
Don't forget they kill software for *every* platform that doesn't make enough money. Remember LiveMotion ?
I don't think this is just bad. Other firms now have the opportinity to make Framemaker'ish (or other) software (there appears to be an open source FrameMaker'ish app called LaTex http://latex.yauh.de/index_en.html. Seems a bit geekish to me, but it might be a start ?...)
the bad thing is that there is absolutely nothing that compares to framemaker. And everybody else who are making text-apps are making word-look-a-likes, and that is so wrong. Weird that nobody is making a replacement, because surely there must be enough of PhD-students, techincal writeers, authours and others who write long texts...
SHAME!!!!!
But, this also means that I don't miss any more software for MAc OS X.
i've actually taught my wife to use indesign for some fairly large projects, sure, it means breaking large chunks across files, but indesign 2 and (i assume) cs handle long documents about a million times better than indesign 1 did.
i don't know, i just don't understand some of adobe's comments about decisions like these are market-driven for those users on windows. is there this massive windows market using adobe apps that i never see? because seriously, i travel a lot of design and publishing circles, and the only ones using windows publishing environments are the going-out-of-business kind.
are there really a lot of people using, say, premeire on pc's? for anything other than hobbyist work or student reels? is anyone using their consumer-level apps, like photoalbum (or whatever it's called)? i mean, i am certain they are head-and-shoulders better than microsoft attempts at such programs, but what the heck isn't?
p.s. personally, with their upgrade-then-abandonment of pagemaker over the past couple of years, and then trying to coax people into indesign, if i was a framemaker user on ANY platform, i would guess you have 1-3 years TOPS before adobe decides that they will discontinue framemaker and roll framemaker's functionality into indesign, and offer transitional "plug-ins" just like they did with pagemaker.
makes sense for them, as they only have to R&D and test one app, and then work out the bugs between platforms. adobe wants indesign to become the photoshop of layout and publishing apps.
I've never had reason to use a program like Framemaker with long document features. So I don't know much about the category.
But I know Apple must use this category to prepare manuals and technical documents.
With Framemaker now gone, does this open up a chance for Apple to intro a Word Processor with long document features (a la Keynote) and still not "directly" compete with Microsoft?
If I may , I choose to vote YES! I've been hoping that a new Appleworks word processor would combine a keynote-like interface with a good word processor. Please, Please, Please.
anyone that takes on the task of replacing frame on the mac has a lot of time and effort ahead of them. the feature set has been built up over the years into something which pretty much nothing else can match.
i do expect indesign to release a long doc plug-in (which is essentially the framemaker key things; cross refs, markers, etc etc), but when?
looks like frame in virtual pc if i ever upgrade from the version i have now
p.s. personally, with their upgrade-then-abandonment of pagemaker over the past couple of years, and then trying to coax people into indesign, if i was a framemaker user on ANY platform, i would guess you have 1-3 years TOPS before adobe decides that they will discontinue framemaker and roll framemaker's functionality into indesign, and offer transitional "plug-ins" just like they did with pagemaker.
You might be right. Adobe hasn't updated FrameMaker in the last 3 years on *any* platform. Maybe they will do a small update for the Windows-side, but I think that's it. Rumor has it they will kill FM for Windows too. Adobe has more programs on the shelf catching dust.
It would make more sense indeed to roll all the FM features (more or less) in Indesign (and call it the 'SuperPro' version or something).
sorry, but adobe has updated frame within the last 3 years. we had frame 7 last year (or did it creep into the year before that?)
and then in january they announced the 7.1 upgrade for windows only (as mentioned at the start of this thread)
FrameMaker 7.0 was introduced around july 2002, so it's almost two years ago. I give you that one.
But the fact remains that a .1 update in almost 2 years isn't that great.
I read an article wich says that former Adobe CEO John Warnock absolutely wanted to buy FrameMaker form Frameworks, against the advice of just about anyone else at Adobe. Now John is retired, I suspect they will let it die gradually.
First the ecomomically least interesting, being the Mac version. Porting it to OSX was just too much effort for a niche-product. Then a few smaller updates for the Windows version, and then the refrigerator. Or on Ebay ?
sorry, but adobe has updated frame within the last 3 years. we had frame 7 last year (or did it creep into the year before that?)
and then in january they announced the 7.1 upgrade for windows only (as mentioned at the start of this thread)
True, but perhaps we should say that Adobe's updates of Frame have been modest indeed. It seems clear enough that they found the codebase difficult to work with.
Though I'm none too happy with Adobe about this, I still believe that Adobe will eventually create a Framemaker replacement. I refuse to believe the stories that this is some kind of payback for Final Cut Pro killing Premiere's marketshare on the Mac.
I feel like I'm repeating myself, so I'll just stop there. But as a kind of a postscript (ahem), you might cheer up a little when you see this.
Yea, but the problem still remains - what now? There is absolutely NOTHING that compares to this, and not even close. Who should one contact to ask them to write a similare programme? Maybe Stone....? Any other ideas?
OK, let's forget about Adobe, they are gonne as from now. Let's be constructive. What is it that we want (and what was good in Framemaker) and let us then submit a request to a suitable app-maker. I already asked Stone, but a more detailed request could be in place. Anyone else interested?
Here are mine (I'll add more, and add yours as welll and then send in...)
1. Structured paragraph-rules, with art/lines
2. Headllines on the side
3. Better font-capabilities than in Framemaker (ligatures &c)
4. Add pictures with text going around objects (not just around a square)
like i said before, dividend, at least half of what you are asking for is done to one degree or another in indesign. i'm NOT saying that indesign is a suitable replacement for framemaker, but you CAN see that adobe may be herding everyone towards indesign by 2005 to 2006.
hell, if they can integrate some sort of basic packaging plug-ins for indesign, then they truly will have a "quark killer" -- not "quarkxpress killer," i'm talking "quark, INC. killer" and i think adobe wised-up where quark did not, in removing the "web publishing capabilities" from indesign. i thought they did as good a job as they could, but then realized "you know, we already HAVE golive -- what if we just improve the round-tripping between all of these apps, rather than glomming on more unnecessary features into what is supposed to be a layout app."
the only thing that remains now is when will adobe stop screwing around and finally integrate all of imageready into photoshop, as opposed to the current "modal roundtripping" it does now.
well, rok, somewhat is dones into indesign, yes. but it is still not at all workable for writing your text in indesign. it lacks:
1. footnotes (yes , you can buy a plug-in...)
2. math-expressions is clumsy, if at all
3. tables are not as good as in framemaker
4. titles are not configureable with graphics etc
5. no side-titles unless you do in manually, which kills the purpose
6. sloooooooooow if you have more than 20 pages of text, working with in-copy i don't know, but does not seem to a convenient solution. speed is a very important issue when you have several hundreds of pages
7. no line-numbering (which framemaker does not have, incidentally, only word has that)Y
You've got to have a programme that works like a word-processor, otherwise there are just too many details that obstructs your work.
well, rok, somewhat is dones into indesign, yes. but it is still not at all workable for writing your text in indesign. it lacks:
1. footnotes (yes , you can buy a plug-in...)
2. math-expressions is clumsy, if at all
3. tables are not as good as in framemaker
4. titles are not configureable with graphics etc
5. no side-titles unless you do in manually, which kills the purpose
6. sloooooooooow if you have more than 20 pages of text, working with in-copy i don't know, but does not seem to a convenient solution. speed is a very important issue when you have several hundreds of pages
7. no line-numbering (which framemaker does not have, incidentally, only word has that)Y
You've got to have a programme that works like a word-processor, otherwise there are just too many details that obstructs your work.
agreed on all counts (and all of my wife's biggest complaints, as she is beginning work on her first book).
but i can see, for better or worse, adobe creating a "footnotes" and/or "math expressions" plug-in for indesign int he next year or so. and recall that they finally brought back the story editor from pagemaker in indesign cs, which wouldn't take too much effort to add line numbering in that area (in fact, it might even have it, but i haven't gotten a chance to play with the cs suite yet).
you could also round-trip statistical data between illustrator's graphing capabilities, though in all fairness, adobe really needs to explore graphing again in illustrator, a module which hasn't seen a good update since illustrator 5.5.
and i am sure adobe is thinking that, since their xml-integration hands quarkxpress its lunch, there are a lot of areas where a database solution for information (such as image titles tied to tabular data) would help solve other problems.
unfortunately, adobe's incopy 2.0 was stupid slow, and had a tendency to corrupt incopy files if there was any problems with the server where they resided (so, in other words, in a perfect world, it'd be fine. however, on OUR servers, we were constantly recreating files).
well, rok, i agree: most things digital can be solved digitally. I seriously doubt that indesign ever is going to be a good app that can replace framemaker. Plug-ins for footnotes cost a whoppiong 195 dollars, in addition to the app istelf, can't afford that at all, see if uni can supply it.
Essentially, I believe a re-write would be necessary to get up the speed and feel and work-flow for serious writers (me?)
On the other hand, there should be a huge market for a well-structured word-processor with strong frame-capabilities. All lawyers could do with one, and all technical writes too, in addition to authours. Apple could do a cool thing; in iPhoto you can order a print of your photo-set up, shouldn't one be able to order a printed version of one's book(let) thru iBook (!) just as from iPhoto? Frames or layout-rules could be donwloaded so all present their papers in the exact same way - that would be great for periodicals etc.
Indesing is still just too clumsy for such a thing, but, as I guess we all agree, it is better than nothing. With a few expensive plug-ins you can get the work done...
yeah, it might not be the "right" decisions, but i can see adobe fooling itself into believing that indesign can become their next "killer app" and think they can keep adding plug-ins until the app satisfies everyone -- and requires a quad-g5 just to start up.
sounds like os 1-9 - they added all these "plugg-ins" and essential tweaks up and down; in the end it was doomed just because of that. Better to have a clean app with a clear focus that does what it is supposed to galantly.
But it would be nice if you guys could help me add to the list, so we can ask somebody to write an app for us.
Perhaps even our fruit-seller looks here and gets some ideas.
to add to dividend's list of things InDesign can't do well:
automatic TOC
automatic Index
automatic List of Figures
flexible sidenote/footnote/endnote formatting
styles that stick and work right
character styles that don't require you to reset paragraph styles
speed
speed
stability
To top it off Frame didn't require the purchase of two apps (InDesign and InCopy) and a number of expensive plugins.
waiting for 2005 or 2006. might as well switch to a PC and wait for Longhorn. doesn't help now, nor does Adobe's lame-ass offer of a special migration price to PC FrameMaker. hmmm...new PC + PC FrameMaker = $$$$$
Comments
Originally posted by BuonRotto
I can't say I'm stunned at all when I look at the big picture. I expect InDesign, Go Live and Acrobat for Macs to be orphaned soon enough. I don't expect any new products to come out for Macs either, only updates to current ones, and those to drop off as well in the next 3-5 years.
At some point a lot of us are going to have to choose between Macs or Adobe products once and for all.
I don't think Adobe will abandon like 30% of their income (Adobe CS Studio apps). Macs are still very strong in creative businesses.
It's easy to think when a company kills an app that their support is fading, but one application is not another. Adobe would be stupid to end Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign/Acrobat for Mac. It's still a cash cow, and they only want to make money.
GoLive is a different story. In a way it's a bit orphaned since Adobe bought it from the German firm who originaly made it (Mac only !), including the Windows version. Everyone works with Dreamweaver or -yes - Frontpage.
Don't forget they kill software for *every* platform that doesn't make enough money. Remember LiveMotion ?
I don't think this is just bad. Other firms now have the opportinity to make Framemaker'ish (or other) software (there appears to be an open source FrameMaker'ish app called LaTex http://latex.yauh.de/index_en.html. Seems a bit geekish to me, but it might be a start ?...)
SHAME!!!!!
But, this also means that I don't miss any more software for MAc OS X.
i don't know, i just don't understand some of adobe's comments about decisions like these are market-driven for those users on windows. is there this massive windows market using adobe apps that i never see? because seriously, i travel a lot of design and publishing circles, and the only ones using windows publishing environments are the going-out-of-business kind.
are there really a lot of people using, say, premeire on pc's? for anything other than hobbyist work or student reels? is anyone using their consumer-level apps, like photoalbum (or whatever it's called)? i mean, i am certain they are head-and-shoulders better than microsoft attempts at such programs, but what the heck isn't?
makes sense for them, as they only have to R&D and test one app, and then work out the bugs between platforms. adobe wants indesign to become the photoshop of layout and publishing apps.
bet on it.
Originally posted by Frank777
I've never had reason to use a program like Framemaker with long document features. So I don't know much about the category.
But I know Apple must use this category to prepare manuals and technical documents.
With Framemaker now gone, does this open up a chance for Apple to intro a Word Processor with long document features (a la Keynote) and still not "directly" compete with Microsoft?
If I may , I choose to vote YES! I've been hoping that a new Appleworks word processor would combine a keynote-like interface with a good word processor. Please, Please, Please.
i do expect indesign to release a long doc plug-in (which is essentially the framemaker key things; cross refs, markers, etc etc), but when?
looks like frame in virtual pc if i ever upgrade from the version i have now
Originally posted by rok
p.s. personally, with their upgrade-then-abandonment of pagemaker over the past couple of years, and then trying to coax people into indesign, if i was a framemaker user on ANY platform, i would guess you have 1-3 years TOPS before adobe decides that they will discontinue framemaker and roll framemaker's functionality into indesign, and offer transitional "plug-ins" just like they did with pagemaker.
You might be right. Adobe hasn't updated FrameMaker in the last 3 years on *any* platform. Maybe they will do a small update for the Windows-side, but I think that's it. Rumor has it they will kill FM for Windows too. Adobe has more programs on the shelf catching dust.
It would make more sense indeed to roll all the FM features (more or less) in Indesign (and call it the 'SuperPro' version or something).
and then in january they announced the 7.1 upgrade for windows only (as mentioned at the start of this thread)
Originally posted by othello
sorry, but adobe has updated frame within the last 3 years. we had frame 7 last year (or did it creep into the year before that?)
and then in january they announced the 7.1 upgrade for windows only (as mentioned at the start of this thread)
FrameMaker 7.0 was introduced around july 2002, so it's almost two years ago. I give you that one.
But the fact remains that a .1 update in almost 2 years isn't that great.
I read an article wich says that former Adobe CEO John Warnock absolutely wanted to buy FrameMaker form Frameworks, against the advice of just about anyone else at Adobe. Now John is retired, I suspect they will let it die gradually.
First the ecomomically least interesting, being the Mac version. Porting it to OSX was just too much effort for a niche-product. Then a few smaller updates for the Windows version, and then the refrigerator. Or on Ebay ?
Just my .2 c
Originally posted by othello
sorry, but adobe has updated frame within the last 3 years. we had frame 7 last year (or did it creep into the year before that?)
and then in january they announced the 7.1 upgrade for windows only (as mentioned at the start of this thread)
True, but perhaps we should say that Adobe's updates of Frame have been modest indeed. It seems clear enough that they found the codebase difficult to work with.
Though I'm none too happy with Adobe about this, I still believe that Adobe will eventually create a Framemaker replacement. I refuse to believe the stories that this is some kind of payback for Final Cut Pro killing Premiere's marketshare on the Mac.
I feel like I'm repeating myself, so I'll just stop there. But as a kind of a postscript (ahem), you might cheer up a little when you see this.
Here are mine (I'll add more, and add yours as welll and then send in...)
1. Structured paragraph-rules, with art/lines
2. Headllines on the side
3. Better font-capabilities than in Framemaker (ligatures &c)
4. Add pictures with text going around objects (not just around a square)
5. Structured tables
6. math-expressions
7. works with distiller to make interactive pdf-s
Anything more?
hell, if they can integrate some sort of basic packaging plug-ins for indesign, then they truly will have a "quark killer" -- not "quarkxpress killer," i'm talking "quark, INC. killer" and i think adobe wised-up where quark did not, in removing the "web publishing capabilities" from indesign. i thought they did as good a job as they could, but then realized "you know, we already HAVE golive -- what if we just improve the round-tripping between all of these apps, rather than glomming on more unnecessary features into what is supposed to be a layout app."
the only thing that remains now is when will adobe stop screwing around and finally integrate all of imageready into photoshop, as opposed to the current "modal roundtripping" it does now.
1. footnotes (yes , you can buy a plug-in...)
2. math-expressions is clumsy, if at all
3. tables are not as good as in framemaker
4. titles are not configureable with graphics etc
5. no side-titles unless you do in manually, which kills the purpose
6. sloooooooooow if you have more than 20 pages of text, working with in-copy i don't know, but does not seem to a convenient solution. speed is a very important issue when you have several hundreds of pages
7. no line-numbering (which framemaker does not have, incidentally, only word has that)Y
You've got to have a programme that works like a word-processor, otherwise there are just too many details that obstructs your work.
Originally posted by dividend
well, rok, somewhat is dones into indesign, yes. but it is still not at all workable for writing your text in indesign. it lacks:
1. footnotes (yes , you can buy a plug-in...)
2. math-expressions is clumsy, if at all
3. tables are not as good as in framemaker
4. titles are not configureable with graphics etc
5. no side-titles unless you do in manually, which kills the purpose
6. sloooooooooow if you have more than 20 pages of text, working with in-copy i don't know, but does not seem to a convenient solution. speed is a very important issue when you have several hundreds of pages
7. no line-numbering (which framemaker does not have, incidentally, only word has that)Y
You've got to have a programme that works like a word-processor, otherwise there are just too many details that obstructs your work.
agreed on all counts (and all of my wife's biggest complaints, as she is beginning work on her first book).
but i can see, for better or worse, adobe creating a "footnotes" and/or "math expressions" plug-in for indesign int he next year or so. and recall that they finally brought back the story editor from pagemaker in indesign cs, which wouldn't take too much effort to add line numbering in that area (in fact, it might even have it, but i haven't gotten a chance to play with the cs suite yet).
you could also round-trip statistical data between illustrator's graphing capabilities, though in all fairness, adobe really needs to explore graphing again in illustrator, a module which hasn't seen a good update since illustrator 5.5.
and i am sure adobe is thinking that, since their xml-integration hands quarkxpress its lunch, there are a lot of areas where a database solution for information (such as image titles tied to tabular data) would help solve other problems.
unfortunately, adobe's incopy 2.0 was stupid slow, and had a tendency to corrupt incopy files if there was any problems with the server where they resided (so, in other words, in a perfect world, it'd be fine. however, on OUR servers, we were constantly recreating files).
Essentially, I believe a re-write would be necessary to get up the speed and feel and work-flow for serious writers (me?)
On the other hand, there should be a huge market for a well-structured word-processor with strong frame-capabilities. All lawyers could do with one, and all technical writes too, in addition to authours. Apple could do a cool thing; in iPhoto you can order a print of your photo-set up, shouldn't one be able to order a printed version of one's book(let) thru iBook (!) just as from iPhoto? Frames or layout-rules could be donwloaded so all present their papers in the exact same way - that would be great for periodicals etc.
Indesing is still just too clumsy for such a thing, but, as I guess we all agree, it is better than nothing. With a few expensive plug-ins you can get the work done...
But it would be nice if you guys could help me add to the list, so we can ask somebody to write an app for us.
Perhaps even our fruit-seller looks here and gets some ideas.
automatic TOC
automatic Index
automatic List of Figures
flexible sidenote/footnote/endnote formatting
styles that stick and work right
character styles that don't require you to reset paragraph styles
speed
speed
stability
To top it off Frame didn't require the purchase of two apps (InDesign and InCopy) and a number of expensive plugins.
waiting for 2005 or 2006. might as well switch to a PC and wait for Longhorn. doesn't help now, nor does Adobe's lame-ass offer of a special migration price to PC FrameMaker. hmmm...new PC + PC FrameMaker = $$$$$