Wow southerners will vote for southerners... that's a revelation.
This is a circular argument. You have to be from the south to understand a southerner?
I don't think so. There was a time when northern Dems did well in the south. In 1960 JFK actually won by more in Georgia than he did in Massachusetts.
Quote:
So by that supposition every democratic candidate ever put forward for president should be from a southern state... or at least pretend to be a good ol' boy like Bush?
No, that's just the way Dems have been successful in the past 30 years.
Well unfortunately Candidates do have to look at regions because they do tend to trend in the way they vote. The various regions see issues differently. Some things are more important to some than others.
But I agree sticking to issues with broad national appeal is the best strategy. His comments were made to a northern audience.
Also... zaphod... you say Dean sees only stereotype?
and that's his extent of understanding the south..
And I made the point that he said something that we all know is true.
It would be the equivalent of a southerner saying...
We need to appeal to that blue colar union factory worker in the north. I'm not sure what northern symbol there is that raises southern ire. Feel free to add it for me.
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
I wonder what he said in the rest of the speech.
Dean isn't pulling this stuff out of his @ss... don't you think the DNC has done extensive focus groups and polls to find out why southerners vote the way they do? This isn't about stereotypes...
Why else would the Bush campaign do push polls in South Carolina... asking people if they would vote for McCain if they knew he had a mixed race daughter? He does... and I believe she's adopted.
Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
he has "southerners" all figured out...
Dean needs to not say anything at all if he can not use his head while talking.
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
I wonder what he said in the rest of the speech.
Dean isn't pulling this stuff out of his @ss... don't you think the DNC has done extensive focus groups and polls to find out why southerners vote the way they do? This isn't about stereotypes...
Why else would the Bush campaign do push polls in South Carolina... asking people if they would vote for McCain if they knew he had a mixed race daughter? He does... and I believe she's adopted.
You make me as sick as those who give Bush a free pass on anything he does. If Bush did it it is Right.... Some will suggest.. WHY!!! WHY!!!!!
chu_bakka can you not do better than to give a free pass to anything a political figure says? I mean is it that hard to stand outside of the whole equation left to right and be critical of all canditates where it is due and give credit where it is due?
Hello? It's called a soundbite. Nothing new here. Used all the time... by both sides. Dean just packaged his all tidy and put a red bow on it.
Quote:
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
Race isn't the issue in recent years it once was. And it certainly doesn't work well for Republicans - not a good idea to energize the Democrat base. It's also not easy to find a Dem in the south who would differ much on guns. Have ANY races down there turned on that issue? or the issue of gays? God, well, that one has some traction but name a southern GOP governor or senator who rode that issue into office. Southern Dems don't walk into that buzzsaw either.
The only thing I've gotten out of this is that Southerners vote republican because apparently northern democrats don't understand them.
Yes! And southern Democrats do understand them. That's why southern Democrat presidential nominees have won numerous southern states while northern nominees get shellacked there.
Quote:
Dean is running on wanting to provide good healthcare, education and stick to responsible fiscal policies.
Problem is: he just stepped on his own message. He introduced himself to a lot of southern voters in the wrong way.
So southerners only vote for southerners. Because only a southerner can understand them. The only time they have to vote for someone NOT from their state is in a presidential election.
Are southerners that thin skinned? Dean speaks frankly about a reality... and that's a no no?
So southerners only vote for southerners. Because only a southerner can understand them. The only time they have to vote for someone NOT from their state is in a presidential election.
No. The point is that Northern democrats don't really GET southern democrats, while southern democrats DO GET northern democrats. Thus, southerners tend to vote for southern democrats, who they perceive as more aligned with their interests. It makes perfect sense, really.
Quote:
Are southerners that thin skinned?
Yes. See how you feel if half the country invaded and occupied you, then for 140 years told you that you, your family, and your entire culture was ignorant, backwards, and savage.
Quote:
Dean speaks frankly about a reality... and that's a no no?
Dean's got a hard row to hoe, here. And if he plays his cards right, it could pay off for him in significant ways.
"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary he will lose.
"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary.. Mark my words.
Fellowship
The problem is that he's right and it won't make any difference.
Those issues are the shibboleth for Southern voters, and they're really ones that wind up playing against them when it comes to economics.
Oh no! Don't get me wrong. I think Dean could very possibly have blown this (it all depends upon the fallout and how it plays).
In other words, I don't know that we necessarily disagree. I keep wondering whether, if all of this isn't what I'd thought (that is, the opening move of a southern strategy), perhaps it's designed to get him lots and lots of media attention (which is always good) and to place this debate on the table and maybe get some discussion going that'll in turn get him some votes.
"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary he will lose.
Fellowship
It's only bad because it's mildly insulting to southern voters. As to the truthfulness of Dean's statement, it's spot on. In the context of his other remarks that day, it's not bad at all. Consider the following: "Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care." Dean tells his southern audience that he is their candidate for "improving education and health care." If they stop basing their vote on guns, god, and whatnot and start basing it on health care and education, Dean is their man. He's definitely pursuing a southern strategy that is only specific to southern voters in the way he directs it at them (i.e. the way he considers their past voting habits and suggests new ones instead). In no way does he pander to southern voters in any way that wouldn't benefit all Americans. So you're definitely "jumping the gun" here like a good southerner!
Oh no! Don't get me wrong. I think Dean could very possibly have blown this (it all depends upon the fallout and how it plays).
In other words, I don't know that we necessarily disagree. I keep wondering whether, if all of this isn't what I'd thought (that is, the opening move of a southern strategy), perhaps it's designed to get him lots and lots of media attention (which is always good) and to place this debate on the table and maybe get some discussion going that'll in turn get him some votes.
Cheers
Scott
Trust me he has blown it. But I see your point about more media coverage. I called that from the very begining. It was more than obvious and it will have a negative consequence with his efforts to win against Bush. Bush at least understands those in the "south" and does not relegate or lump them as confederate flag waving, black hating, gay phobic, gun toting white trash. Bush has a hidden political wisdom in that he does not insult a whole region of the country to get media coverage. He also does not go on his campaign trail and tell the "north" what to vote for and what not to vote for. Such would be an insult. What if Bush for example went to a northeastern state and said "You in the "north" need to give up all this union business" "I want you to feel that you can vote for me as your president" (THAT WOULD BE PURE RUIN) Not only does Bush not insult those in the "north" he has given strong effort to build bridges with some of the most liberal members of government in the Northeast example: Kennedy and others.
Trust me he has blown it. But I see your point about more media coverage. I called that from the very begining. It was more than obvious and it will have a negative consequence with his efforts to win against Bush. Bush at least understands those in the "south" and does not relegate or lump them as confederate flag waving, black hating, gay phobic, gun toting white trash. Bush has a hidden political wisdom in that he does not insult a whole region of the country to get media coverage. He also does not go on his campaign trail and tell the "north" what to vote for and what not to vote for. Such would be an insult. What if Bush for example went to a northeastern state and said "You in the "north" need to give up all this union business" "I want you to feel that you can vote for me as your president" (THAT WOULD BE PURE RUIN) Not only does Bush not insult those in the "north" he has given strong effort to build bridges with some of the most liberal members of government in the Northeast example: Kennedy and others.
Dean has lost his bid for presidency.
Fellowship
You see, your remarks are just what midwinter was getting at before. You're assuming that "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad and you're speaking out against it. Paradoxically (and ironically), YOU'RE the one who is truly offending southerners here. Isn't it ingenious how that works out? Meanwhile, Dean is reaching out to southern conservatives with promises to improve education and health care. This looks pretty good for Dean to me...
EDIT: Even though Dean obviously thinks "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad, he's reaching out to southern conservatives with an alternative. He's building a bridge in your own words. Can you not see this?
Comments
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Dean doesn't understand that the whiteguy with a rebel flag sticker on his pick-up ususally votes republican?
That's not what I wrote. Try again.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Wow southerners will vote for southerners... that's a revelation.
This is a circular argument. You have to be from the south to understand a southerner?
I don't think so. There was a time when northern Dems did well in the south. In 1960 JFK actually won by more in Georgia than he did in Massachusetts.
So by that supposition every democratic candidate ever put forward for president should be from a southern state... or at least pretend to be a good ol' boy like Bush?
No, that's just the way Dems have been successful in the past 30 years.
But I agree sticking to issues with broad national appeal is the best strategy. His comments were made to a northern audience.
Also... zaphod... you say Dean sees only stereotype?
and that's his extent of understanding the south..
And I made the point that he said something that we all know is true.
It would be the equivalent of a southerner saying...
We need to appeal to that blue colar union factory worker in the north. I'm not sure what northern symbol there is that raises southern ire. Feel free to add it for me.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Also... zaphod... you say Dean sees only stereotype?
and that's his extent of understanding the south..
Yep.
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
I wonder what he said in the rest of the speech.
Dean isn't pulling this stuff out of his @ss... don't you think the DNC has done extensive focus groups and polls to find out why southerners vote the way they do? This isn't about stereotypes...
Why else would the Bush campaign do push polls in South Carolina... asking people if they would vote for McCain if they knew he had a mixed race daughter? He does... and I believe she's adopted.
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
Yep.
Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
he has "southerners" all figured out...
Dean needs to not say anything at all if he can not use his head while talking.
Fellowship
Originally posted by chu_bakka
and you're basing that on a partial quote...
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
I wonder what he said in the rest of the speech.
Dean isn't pulling this stuff out of his @ss... don't you think the DNC has done extensive focus groups and polls to find out why southerners vote the way they do? This isn't about stereotypes...
Why else would the Bush campaign do push polls in South Carolina... asking people if they would vote for McCain if they knew he had a mixed race daughter? He does... and I believe she's adopted.
You make me as sick as those who give Bush a free pass on anything he does. If Bush did it it is Right.... Some will suggest.. WHY!!! WHY!!!!!
chu_bakka can you not do better than to give a free pass to anything a political figure says? I mean is it that hard to stand outside of the whole equation left to right and be critical of all canditates where it is due and give credit where it is due?
Please! I beg you.
Fellows
It's called the Republican "Southern Strategy".
Dean says we have to defeat that strategy.
geez. Who's the one in denial? I don't think it's me.
Maybe you don't underdstand northerners. We offend you.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
and you're basing that on a partial quote...
Hello? It's called a soundbite. Nothing new here. Used all the time... by both sides. Dean just packaged his all tidy and put a red bow on it.
are those not the issues that republican's use as divisive issues in the south?
Race isn't the issue in recent years it once was. And it certainly doesn't work well for Republicans - not a good idea to energize the Democrat base. It's also not easy to find a Dem in the south who would differ much on guns. Have ANY races down there turned on that issue? or the issue of gays? God, well, that one has some traction but name a southern GOP governor or senator who rode that issue into office. Southern Dems don't walk into that buzzsaw either.
The only thing I've gotten out of this is that Southerners vote republican because apparently northern democrats don't understand them.
I understand that the issue is complex.
Dean is running on wanting to provide good healthcare, education and stick to responsible fiscal policies.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I give up.
The only thing I've gotten out of this is that Southerners vote republican because apparently northern democrats don't understand them.
Yes! And southern Democrats do understand them. That's why southern Democrat presidential nominees have won numerous southern states while northern nominees get shellacked there.
Dean is running on wanting to provide good healthcare, education and stick to responsible fiscal policies.
Problem is: he just stepped on his own message. He introduced himself to a lot of southern voters in the wrong way.
So southerners only vote for southerners. Because only a southerner can understand them. The only time they have to vote for someone NOT from their state is in a presidential election.
Are southerners that thin skinned? Dean speaks frankly about a reality... and that's a no no?
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Uhg. I don't even know why I try.
So southerners only vote for southerners. Because only a southerner can understand them. The only time they have to vote for someone NOT from their state is in a presidential election.
No. The point is that Northern democrats don't really GET southern democrats, while southern democrats DO GET northern democrats. Thus, southerners tend to vote for southern democrats, who they perceive as more aligned with their interests. It makes perfect sense, really.
Are southerners that thin skinned?
Yes. See how you feel if half the country invaded and occupied you, then for 140 years told you that you, your family, and your entire culture was ignorant, backwards, and savage.
Dean speaks frankly about a reality... and that's a no no?
Dean's got a hard row to hoe, here. And if he plays his cards right, it could pay off for him in significant ways.
Cheers
Scott
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary he will lose.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary.. Mark my words.
Fellowship
The problem is that he's right and it won't make any difference.
Those issues are the shibboleth for Southern voters, and they're really ones that wind up playing against them when it comes to economics.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by midwinter
The problem is that he's right and it won't make any difference.
Those issues are the shibboleth for Southern voters, and they're really ones that wind up playing against them when it comes to economics.
Cheers
Scott
We agree to disagree which is a good thing.
Time will tell.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
We agree to disagree which is a good thing.
Time will tell.
Fellowship
Oh no! Don't get me wrong. I think Dean could very possibly have blown this (it all depends upon the fallout and how it plays).
In other words, I don't know that we necessarily disagree. I keep wondering whether, if all of this isn't what I'd thought (that is, the opening move of a southern strategy), perhaps it's designed to get him lots and lots of media attention (which is always good) and to place this debate on the table and maybe get some discussion going that'll in turn get him some votes.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."
Need I say anything?
That statement is such a poor thing for any would be president to say.
stereotyping is so old...
Dean can run all he wishes. He will lose the South so badly it will look awful..
Mark my words.. If Dean wins the Dem Primary he will lose.
Fellowship
It's only bad because it's mildly insulting to southern voters. As to the truthfulness of Dean's statement, it's spot on. In the context of his other remarks that day, it's not bad at all. Consider the following: "Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care." Dean tells his southern audience that he is their candidate for "improving education and health care." If they stop basing their vote on guns, god, and whatnot and start basing it on health care and education, Dean is their man. He's definitely pursuing a southern strategy that is only specific to southern voters in the way he directs it at them (i.e. the way he considers their past voting habits and suggests new ones instead). In no way does he pander to southern voters in any way that wouldn't benefit all Americans. So you're definitely "jumping the gun" here like a good southerner!
Originally posted by midwinter
Oh no! Don't get me wrong. I think Dean could very possibly have blown this (it all depends upon the fallout and how it plays).
In other words, I don't know that we necessarily disagree. I keep wondering whether, if all of this isn't what I'd thought (that is, the opening move of a southern strategy), perhaps it's designed to get him lots and lots of media attention (which is always good) and to place this debate on the table and maybe get some discussion going that'll in turn get him some votes.
Cheers
Scott
Trust me he has blown it. But I see your point about more media coverage. I called that from the very begining. It was more than obvious and it will have a negative consequence with his efforts to win against Bush. Bush at least understands those in the "south" and does not relegate or lump them as confederate flag waving, black hating, gay phobic, gun toting white trash. Bush has a hidden political wisdom in that he does not insult a whole region of the country to get media coverage. He also does not go on his campaign trail and tell the "north" what to vote for and what not to vote for. Such would be an insult. What if Bush for example went to a northeastern state and said "You in the "north" need to give up all this union business" "I want you to feel that you can vote for me as your president" (THAT WOULD BE PURE RUIN) Not only does Bush not insult those in the "north" he has given strong effort to build bridges with some of the most liberal members of government in the Northeast example: Kennedy and others.
Dean has lost his bid for presidency.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Trust me he has blown it. But I see your point about more media coverage. I called that from the very begining. It was more than obvious and it will have a negative consequence with his efforts to win against Bush. Bush at least understands those in the "south" and does not relegate or lump them as confederate flag waving, black hating, gay phobic, gun toting white trash. Bush has a hidden political wisdom in that he does not insult a whole region of the country to get media coverage. He also does not go on his campaign trail and tell the "north" what to vote for and what not to vote for. Such would be an insult. What if Bush for example went to a northeastern state and said "You in the "north" need to give up all this union business" "I want you to feel that you can vote for me as your president" (THAT WOULD BE PURE RUIN) Not only does Bush not insult those in the "north" he has given strong effort to build bridges with some of the most liberal members of government in the Northeast example: Kennedy and others.
Dean has lost his bid for presidency.
Fellowship
You see, your remarks are just what midwinter was getting at before. You're assuming that "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad and you're speaking out against it. Paradoxically (and ironically), YOU'RE the one who is truly offending southerners here. Isn't it ingenious how that works out? Meanwhile, Dean is reaching out to southern conservatives with promises to improve education and health care. This looks pretty good for Dean to me...
EDIT: Even though Dean obviously thinks "basing votes on race, guns, God, and gays" is bad, he's reaching out to southern conservatives with an alternative. He's building a bridge in your own words. Can you not see this?