While I have to agree that the P-M is a serious threat Apple will not be able to meet that challenge with the 970 unless they can get an extrodinary power reduction.
64 bit can be a very marketable feature in a laptop there is no doubt about that, but if Apple loose the other features they are famous for then it won't clinch any sales. Apple has to move forward on battry time considerations, even if they have to adopt larger batteries or new technologies. Thats with todays G4, going to the 970 will only make it worst.
What it comes down to is that any cooling technologies that they add to the machine only permit the machine to discharge the batteries faster. Heat is current and wasted power at that. So form my perspective there is limited use for fancy cooling technologies in portables. All these technologies point out is that the machine is burning up your batter reserves.
Now I'd jump for joy if the 970+ or the 980 came out and disipated only 5 to 10 watts at 2GHz, but I think that is a stretch. But hey time is short we are bound to see somthing differrent in a few months.
Thanks
Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by stingerman
Aluminum cases are the "hottest" cases in the hobbyist community. Everyone wants one. Form their lightness to their heat dissipation properties to their nice sheen. Apple embraced the hobbyist community when they release the PowerMac G5 and now has the leading Case design with the awesome heat zones.
The Titanium Notebooks were the most lusted after notebooks and the Aluminum improve on their design, only now there is no paint chipping problem. They are beautiful notebooks. But, Apple is getting some heat as the Pentium-M is starting to really put some pressure on, though the Powerbooks are still superior, imo, it is getting to close to be comfortable. I don't think Apple wants to go through a repeat of the desktop marketshare losses. And, why should they? They have excellent notebooks across the price range.
They only now need to differentiate the Powerbooks by moving them forward into the 970 world and the sooner the better. The iBooks then can get faster with the 7447 and its lower heat and lead on the low-end, while the Powerbooks catapult forward into 970 speeds.
While I have to agree that the P-M is a serious threat Apple will not be able to meet that challenge with the 970 unless they can get an extrodinary power reduction.
The P-M isn't that efficient. It's just much more efficient than the P4-M, and it has much better performance per clock.
It still isn't up to the 7457, and really Mot wouldn't need to do much to turn the '57 into something that eats the P-M for lunch. Of course, this is Motorola, so who knows whether they will?
Quote:
What it comes down to is that any cooling technologies that they add to the machine only permit the machine to discharge the batteries faster. Heat is current and wasted power at that. So form my perspective there is limited use for fancy cooling technologies in portables. All these technologies point out is that the machine is burning up your batter reserves.
Not following. Except for fans, all the technologies Apple has used in PowerBooks to date are passive, including any liquid cooling. Power consumption isn't an issue.
Quote:
Now I'd jump for joy if the 970+ or the 980 came out and disipated only 5 to 10 watts at 2GHz, but I think that is a stretch. But hey time is short we are bound to see somthing differrent in a few months.
5-10 Watts is unnecessarily low. Intel is coy about actual typical/maximum wattage with the Pentium M, but they say to design solutions around the 1.7GHz Pentium M as if it were a 24.5W part (noting that it can go higher). This is the same number offered for the top few clock speeds. The 7457 at 1.267GHz has a typical power consumption of 18.3W, and a max of 25.6 (up from 15.8W and 22.0W, respectively, at 1GHz). The 7447 should be a bit more economical, given that it's a bit smaller. So if Apple can get something into the 20-25W range, they're good to go.
so what are the chances that the PBs will see a new form factor this January? 'Slim' considering there is supposed to be a new form factor for the displays...
or maybe there will be DP PBs with only a moderate change in form factor...
I'm honestly not expecting much of anything this January. Yeah, we got surprised last time, but two years in a row?
If there is an update, it'll have to be a surprise, because the 90nm G5 isn't due until Feb/March and any CPU Mot is offering to replace the 7457 has been kept utterly secret.
A DP PowerBook would almost have to be a dual-core design, which means that Motorola would have to come through with it at 90nm (IBM has nothing that would work in a PowerBook in a dual-core configuration). It's also possible that IBM has some all-new thing to offer that nobody's heard about. The tech predicted in this thread, or something like it, wouldn't appear until about this time next year if it appeared at all (which is an open question).
I'd say, however, that we'll see a PowerBook refresh on the usual 6-9 month schedule.
5-10 Watts is unnecessarily low. Intel is coy about actual typical/maximum wattage with the Pentium M, but they say to design solutions around the 1.7GHz Pentium M as if it were a 24.5W part (noting that it can go higher). This is the same number offered for the top few clock speeds. The 7457 at 1.267GHz has a typical power consumption of 18.3W, and a max of 25.6 (up from 15.8W and 22.0W, respectively, at 1GHz). The 7447 should be a bit more economical, given that it's a bit smaller. So if Apple can get something into the 20-25W range, they're good to go.
Also it's important to remember that there's something of a Mhz myth as far as heat vs max wattage goes. If you can implement technologies that reduce leakage (for instance), you can reduce heat dissapation without affecting (or reducing) wattage. The rumored SSOI in the rumored 90nm PPC970 should reduce leakage by 15%. That translates to at least a 10% better heat profile at the same wattage.
So yeah, Apple could be about to announce a G5 laptop. If the wind is right, and the rumors are on target.
Also it's important to remember that there's something of a Mhz myth as far as heat vs max wattage goes. If you can implement technologies that reduce leakage (for instance), you can reduce heat dissapation without affecting (or reducing) wattage. . .
I think your point is that leakage current is wasted energy. It does not contribute to the processor's function. Yet, it is still part of the processors power profile, which is supply voltage multiplied by its input current. If you reduce leakage, you reduce input current and therefore reduce wattage.
I think your point is that leakage current is wasted energy. It does not contribute to the processor's function. Yet, it is still part of the processors power profile, which is supply voltage multiplied by its input current. If you reduce leakage, you reduce input current and therefore reduce wattage.
Good point, fuzzy thinking on my part. But reducing leakage still reduces the heat generated when the part is drawing max wattage so there the end result is similar. But you're right in that it also reduces max wattage, which has the happy benefit of preserving battery life.
OK OK, so when will the "rumors" harden so that we have a "real" picture of the next 2-3 months. I plan on getting a PB15 for christmas, i'll delay as much as possible, but should i return to this forum dec15th or jan15th????
I'm honestly not expecting much of anything this January. Yeah, we got surprised last time, but two years in a row?
If there is an update, it'll have to be a surprise, because the 90nm G5 isn't due until Feb/March and any CPU Mot is offering to replace the 7457 has been kept utterly secret.
A DP PowerBook would almost have to be a dual-core design, which means that Motorola would have to come through with it at 90nm (IBM has nothing that would work in a PowerBook in a dual-core configuration). It's also possible that IBM has some all-new thing to offer that nobody's heard about. The tech predicted in this thread, or something like it, wouldn't appear until about this time next year if it appeared at all (which is an open question).
I'd say, however, that we'll see a PowerBook refresh on the usual 6-9 month schedule.
Well, why not announce iMac G5's or PB G5's. Announce. Shipping March.
Surely they wouldn't go to the cost of another enclosure so quickly...so either it can or they won't for quite a while.
Well the point I was trying to make earlier, was that the aluminum design currently used for the PowerBooks was a temporary design borrowed from the iBooks, while another design more suited to that of a PowerBook G5 is still being tweaked so the G5 works right.
OK OK, so when will the "rumors" harden so that we have a "real" picture of the next 2-3 months. I plan on getting a PB15 for christmas, i'll delay as much as possible, but should i return to this forum dec15th or jan15th????
"hard" as possible data please.
Save yourself the anxiety. Get the 15" machine.
There's no telling when or whether the rumors will harden. I don't believe anyone called the last MWSF PowerBook revision until the 11th hour, and then there was widespread skepticism because Apple had only just updated the line.
If you get the 15", you'll have it. It's a great machine, especially now that Apple appears to have licked the problems the first models were having.
I don't think cell means cluster. I believe it is referring to a non-von Neuman architecture processor where Software is compiled into "circuits" that allows for significantly greater parallelism than current instruction level parallelism allows. That is that instructions are mapped to transistors in a more advanced form of reconfigurable computing. Software would need to be re-compiled in order to benefit. And even formerly single-threaded sequential code will benefit since this new approach allows code that could not be made parallel under the Von Neuman architecture to be parallelized under this new Cell approach. So this isn't just adding additional scalar units and wiring them together in ever faster ways. Nor is it limited to certain algorithms that take advantage of SIMD, since a lot of algorthms can't be vectorized.
There's no telling when or whether the rumors will harden. I don't believe anyone called the last MWSF PowerBook revision until the 11th hour, and then there was widespread skepticism because Apple had only just updated the line.
If you get the 15", you'll have it. It's a great machine, especially now that Apple appears to have licked the problems the first models were having.
thanks--i'll buy before christmas--now to find the best deal/bundle.
You make sense, now what about getting applecare(PB &iPod), is it worth it, and when can you get it. do you have to buy it at the time of purchase (including 3rd parties e.g. macmall etc) or can you wait after purchase or within the first 3months?
I don't think cell means cluster. I believe it is referring to a non-von Neuman architecture processor where Software is compiled into "circuits" that allows for significantly greater parallelism than current instruction level parallelism allows. That is that instructions are mapped to transistors in a more advanced form of reconfigurable computing. . .
This sounds very interesting, but some of us don't have any idea how it would work. Do you have a simple overview of the difference and an example of how it permits parallel code, which can not be parallel in conventional architecture?
Would it use the PPC instruction set, and would old code run, though not efficiently? How does this impact the original claim that there is a multicore chip where each core runs some Mach microkernel?
A link would be fine if it is not too deep, technically.
Hmmm, good point, but again, this is for specialized software that can distribute the calculations across several processors and then join the results. Am I mistaken?
Comments
While I have to agree that the P-M is a serious threat Apple will not be able to meet that challenge with the 970 unless they can get an extrodinary power reduction.
64 bit can be a very marketable feature in a laptop there is no doubt about that, but if Apple loose the other features they are famous for then it won't clinch any sales. Apple has to move forward on battry time considerations, even if they have to adopt larger batteries or new technologies. Thats with todays G4, going to the 970 will only make it worst.
What it comes down to is that any cooling technologies that they add to the machine only permit the machine to discharge the batteries faster. Heat is current and wasted power at that. So form my perspective there is limited use for fancy cooling technologies in portables. All these technologies point out is that the machine is burning up your batter reserves.
Now I'd jump for joy if the 970+ or the 980 came out and disipated only 5 to 10 watts at 2GHz, but I think that is a stretch. But hey time is short we are bound to see somthing differrent in a few months.
Thanks
Dave
Originally posted by stingerman
Aluminum cases are the "hottest" cases in the hobbyist community. Everyone wants one. Form their lightness to their heat dissipation properties to their nice sheen. Apple embraced the hobbyist community when they release the PowerMac G5 and now has the leading Case design with the awesome heat zones.
The Titanium Notebooks were the most lusted after notebooks and the Aluminum improve on their design, only now there is no paint chipping problem. They are beautiful notebooks. But, Apple is getting some heat as the Pentium-M is starting to really put some pressure on, though the Powerbooks are still superior, imo, it is getting to close to be comfortable. I don't think Apple wants to go through a repeat of the desktop marketshare losses. And, why should they? They have excellent notebooks across the price range.
They only now need to differentiate the Powerbooks by moving them forward into the 970 world and the sooner the better. The iBooks then can get faster with the 7447 and its lower heat and lead on the low-end, while the Powerbooks catapult forward into 970 speeds.
Originally posted by wizard69
Hi Stinger;
While I have to agree that the P-M is a serious threat Apple will not be able to meet that challenge with the 970 unless they can get an extrodinary power reduction.
The P-M isn't that efficient. It's just much more efficient than the P4-M, and it has much better performance per clock.
It still isn't up to the 7457, and really Mot wouldn't need to do much to turn the '57 into something that eats the P-M for lunch. Of course, this is Motorola, so who knows whether they will?
What it comes down to is that any cooling technologies that they add to the machine only permit the machine to discharge the batteries faster. Heat is current and wasted power at that. So form my perspective there is limited use for fancy cooling technologies in portables. All these technologies point out is that the machine is burning up your batter reserves.
Not following. Except for fans, all the technologies Apple has used in PowerBooks to date are passive, including any liquid cooling. Power consumption isn't an issue.
Now I'd jump for joy if the 970+ or the 980 came out and disipated only 5 to 10 watts at 2GHz, but I think that is a stretch. But hey time is short we are bound to see somthing differrent in a few months.
5-10 Watts is unnecessarily low. Intel is coy about actual typical/maximum wattage with the Pentium M, but they say to design solutions around the 1.7GHz Pentium M as if it were a 24.5W part (noting that it can go higher). This is the same number offered for the top few clock speeds. The 7457 at 1.267GHz has a typical power consumption of 18.3W, and a max of 25.6 (up from 15.8W and 22.0W, respectively, at 1GHz). The 7447 should be a bit more economical, given that it's a bit smaller. So if Apple can get something into the 20-25W range, they're good to go.
or maybe there will be DP PBs with only a moderate change in form factor...
perhaps not...
If there is an update, it'll have to be a surprise, because the 90nm G5 isn't due until Feb/March and any CPU Mot is offering to replace the 7457 has been kept utterly secret.
A DP PowerBook would almost have to be a dual-core design, which means that Motorola would have to come through with it at 90nm (IBM has nothing that would work in a PowerBook in a dual-core configuration). It's also possible that IBM has some all-new thing to offer that nobody's heard about. The tech predicted in this thread, or something like it, wouldn't appear until about this time next year if it appeared at all (which is an open question).
I'd say, however, that we'll see a PowerBook refresh on the usual 6-9 month schedule.
Originally posted by Amorph
5-10 Watts is unnecessarily low. Intel is coy about actual typical/maximum wattage with the Pentium M, but they say to design solutions around the 1.7GHz Pentium M as if it were a 24.5W part (noting that it can go higher). This is the same number offered for the top few clock speeds. The 7457 at 1.267GHz has a typical power consumption of 18.3W, and a max of 25.6 (up from 15.8W and 22.0W, respectively, at 1GHz). The 7447 should be a bit more economical, given that it's a bit smaller. So if Apple can get something into the 20-25W range, they're good to go.
Also it's important to remember that there's something of a Mhz myth as far as heat vs max wattage goes. If you can implement technologies that reduce leakage (for instance), you can reduce heat dissapation without affecting (or reducing) wattage. The rumored SSOI in the rumored 90nm PPC970 should reduce leakage by 15%. That translates to at least a 10% better heat profile at the same wattage.
So yeah, Apple could be about to announce a G5 laptop. If the wind is right, and the rumors are on target.
Originally posted by Tomb of the Unknown
Also it's important to remember that there's something of a Mhz myth as far as heat vs max wattage goes. If you can implement technologies that reduce leakage (for instance), you can reduce heat dissapation without affecting (or reducing) wattage. . .
I think your point is that leakage current is wasted energy. It does not contribute to the processor's function. Yet, it is still part of the processors power profile, which is supply voltage multiplied by its input current. If you reduce leakage, you reduce input current and therefore reduce wattage.
Originally posted by snoopy
I think your point is that leakage current is wasted energy. It does not contribute to the processor's function. Yet, it is still part of the processors power profile, which is supply voltage multiplied by its input current. If you reduce leakage, you reduce input current and therefore reduce wattage.
Good point, fuzzy thinking on my part. But reducing leakage still reduces the heat generated when the part is drawing max wattage so there the end result is similar. But you're right in that it also reduces max wattage, which has the happy benefit of preserving battery life.
"hard" as possible data please.
You would think the recent Aluminum re-design must have taken in consideration future chips (i.e. G5) going in there.
Surely they wouldn't go to the cost of another enclosure so quickly...so either it can or they won't for quite a while.
Originally posted by Amorph
I'm honestly not expecting much of anything this January. Yeah, we got surprised last time, but two years in a row?
If there is an update, it'll have to be a surprise, because the 90nm G5 isn't due until Feb/March and any CPU Mot is offering to replace the 7457 has been kept utterly secret.
A DP PowerBook would almost have to be a dual-core design, which means that Motorola would have to come through with it at 90nm (IBM has nothing that would work in a PowerBook in a dual-core configuration). It's also possible that IBM has some all-new thing to offer that nobody's heard about. The tech predicted in this thread, or something like it, wouldn't appear until about this time next year if it appeared at all (which is an open question).
I'd say, however, that we'll see a PowerBook refresh on the usual 6-9 month schedule.
Well, why not announce iMac G5's or PB G5's. Announce. Shipping March.
Originally posted by satchmo
Surely they wouldn't go to the cost of another enclosure so quickly...so either it can or they won't for quite a while.
Well the point I was trying to make earlier, was that the aluminum design currently used for the PowerBooks was a temporary design borrowed from the iBooks, while another design more suited to that of a PowerBook G5 is still being tweaked so the G5 works right.
Originally posted by NOFEER
OK OK, so when will the "rumors" harden so that we have a "real" picture of the next 2-3 months. I plan on getting a PB15 for christmas, i'll delay as much as possible, but should i return to this forum dec15th or jan15th????
"hard" as possible data please.
Save yourself the anxiety. Get the 15" machine.
There's no telling when or whether the rumors will harden. I don't believe anyone called the last MWSF PowerBook revision until the 11th hour, and then there was widespread skepticism because Apple had only just updated the line.
If you get the 15", you'll have it. It's a great machine, especially now that Apple appears to have licked the problems the first models were having.
Originally posted by Amorph
Save yourself the anxiety. Get the 15" machine.
There's no telling when or whether the rumors will harden. I don't believe anyone called the last MWSF PowerBook revision until the 11th hour, and then there was widespread skepticism because Apple had only just updated the line.
If you get the 15", you'll have it. It's a great machine, especially now that Apple appears to have licked the problems the first models were having.
thanks--i'll buy before christmas--now to find the best deal/bundle.
You make sense, now what about getting applecare(PB &iPod), is it worth it, and when can you get it. do you have to buy it at the time of purchase (including 3rd parties e.g. macmall etc) or can you wait after purchase or within the first 3months?
You can look up AppleCare at Apple.com.
I think the PB line will be refreshed sooner (Jan.), than later...perhaps to increase the gap between the currently strong iBook line...
possibly to make room for a G5 PB in the spring...???
perhaps not...
Originally posted by stingerman
I don't think cell means cluster. I believe it is referring to a non-von Neuman architecture processor where Software is compiled into "circuits" that allows for significantly greater parallelism than current instruction level parallelism allows. That is that instructions are mapped to transistors in a more advanced form of reconfigurable computing. . .
This sounds very interesting, but some of us don't have any idea how it would work. Do you have a simple overview of the difference and an example of how it permits parallel code, which can not be parallel in conventional architecture?
Would it use the PPC instruction set, and would old code run, though not efficiently? How does this impact the original claim that there is a multicore chip where each core runs some Mach microkernel?
A link would be fine if it is not too deep, technically.
Originally posted by Nr9
xgrid.. hint hint
Hmmm, good point, but again, this is for specialized software that can distribute the calculations across several processors and then join the results. Am I mistaken?