What makes them angry? The mere existence of "the West". We are an anethema to their religious beliefs and will never be accepted so long as we do not comply with their orthodox perception of the religious tenets that they hold dearest. The only way to "cut their motives" would be for us to cease to exist. Forcing peace is not peace. It just isn't.
The people you're talking about is a small group of fanatics. They're a minority in their own homeland. It's true that the current generation is not going to lay down their weapons. But it is very possible to prevent the "disease" from spreading. Not many people will become terrorists, tolerate terrorists, or support terrorists, when they have peace and are not subject to harassment and censure.
Forcing a peace is never a long-term solution, but it can work in the short term to stop the physical fighting. If that situation goes on long enough that the peaceful majority on both sides re-develop trust in each other, there can be real peace. And in the Israeli-Palestinian situation there is clear wish for a peace from both sides. In my opinion it's the terrorists on one side, Sharon on the other who are spoiling it for everybody. There's even a strong pro-peace movement surfacing in the Israeli Defense Forces, both upper and lower ranks.
Regarding SDW2001's comments...
With the cruise missile thing I meant that it is OK to use force against the real terrorists, you don't have to mollycoddle killers.
Obviously it's no good to use force in the instances where you'll have significant collateral damage (innocents dead), since that'll just give more manpower to the terrorists later.
You ridiculed my viewpoint, but didn't care to present your own. Do you have one, or were you just trolling?
Maybe if we (americans) stopped sending troops all around the planet to enforce our will, then maybe ?terrorists? would leave us alone. Or just maybe if we stopped bombing a new country every year, people might not hate us so much.
Unfortunately, our government doesn't seem to understand that you can't make people like you by intimidating or bombing everyone.
A five-dollar hunk of steel could easily derail a train on a bridge. Spend a few more bucks and even the least creative person can find a vulnerable target in the states. It simply isn't possible to defend every sky-scraper, stadium, municipal building, dam, bridge, hospital, power plant, and mile of high-voltage power line etc. And then there is the food and water supply and this hasn't even scratched the surface of the list of potential targets. What if the blood bank was tainted? What if all of the hospitals in a metropolitan area were hit with cheap but radiologically-dirty bombs?
The only way to stop? terrorism? is... there is no way to stop terrorism. There will always be unstable and violent people on the planet. However, we can decrease the likely hood of being the victim of ?terrorism? by simply not bullying the rest of the world around and attacking so many countries.
I'm ashamed of America's foreign policy and try to speak out against it whenever the subject of ?terrorism? arises. Hopefully our country will not make a habit of invading nations on the other side of the planet while pretending that it makes us safer.
Well, I'll ammend the previous post per my perspective: stop supporting dictators and tyrants elsewhere in the world. I think the US generates so much ire when we oust a dictator like Hussein but otherwise tolerate so many like him to one degree or another in other nations. In some cases where we have toppled corrupt governments, we haven't followed through on what we've started: see Central America for some examples of that. I think the US has to commit to one policy or another: either ignore the problem nations of the world or get involved wherever possible. I think the US has a lot to offer, but a piecemeal strategy doesn't really help. People hate the US because the US government tolerates or supports their own corrupt and broken governments. They feel like the "have nots" and feel powerless to change it. That's what the US represents to so many: means to change their way of life, but the US government seems to have selective hearing.
Well, I'll ammend the previous post per my perspective: stop supporting dictators and tyrants elsewhere in the world.
The biggest supporter of dictators and tyrants is the UN. Why not crash some planes into their buildings around the world? What the hell is taking so long?!!! And if they have a problem with their respective governments do the same to their government buildings!!
People hate the US because they been taught to hate the US. Be they Islamicists by their Mullahs, or pinko liberals "intellectuals" by their KGB puppet masters. And the reasons are simple. The US stand for freedom and democracy, and the others oppose it. It's that simple.
I think the support Israel now gets is for the Camp David Peace Accord signed with Egypt. Israel had to give up the oil rich Sinai peninsula as a result of this "peace" (more like cold war) treaty.
The biggest supporter of dictators and tyrants is the UN. Why not crash some planes into their buildings around the world? What the hell is taking so long?!!! And if they have a problem with their respective governments do the same to their government buildings!!
Of course what these Islamic terrorists are all about is ending tyranty and dictatorship in the Islamic world.
I certainly wouldn't want to secularize the Islamic world, in fact, I would defend their right to their religion. Forced secularism is intellectual colonialism. By imposing your secularity on them only increases their hatred and distrust. I'm Christian and the older I get the more I see the way that modern secular society strips away the order of peoples' faiths. I have no doubt that secularism has a chance of eventually defeating terrorists, but that defeat will include the disenfranchisement of most every world religion - all done to protect the world from those who chose a path of violence to protect their religions and enhance their earthly power.
Secularism is the fastest growing "religion" going....but nobody knows it.
I certainly wouldn't want to secularize the Islamic world, in fact, I would defend their right to their religion. Forced secularism is intellectual colonialism. By imposing your secularity on them only increases their hatred and distrust.
I meant with respect to their governments, of course, but without forced theism (the present situation) I'm sure secularism would spread in the general populace as well.
Most obvious thing is to cut their motives. Think what makes them angry and make that go away. A good start would be to force a peace on Israelis and Palestinians until the border thing is settled. Promote education in poor countries. Promote unbiased media. Never tell lies in public, not to other countries, not to your own citizens. Never attack other countries with fake "evidence" and invent new motives as the "evidence" is proven wrong.
Then cut down the terrorists' material and manpower support. Take the stance that terrorists are criminals and they will be caught primarily by police methods, not by military. Most importantly, freeze their money and pay for good in-person undercover work in stead of building more spy satellites and strategic missile defenses. Only attack a whole country if there's real proof that the country sponsors terrorism. If there are a few terrorist camps along a border in an undeveloped country, feel free to shoot them up with cruise missiles, no need to go to war and demonize the whole country for that.
I think it's a waste of time to put a lot of resources to static defense like guarding specific targets. The terrorists are just going to hit something else. Static defenses only stop idiots and give people a false sense of security.
Based upon the inputs given here in AppleOutsider over the past year, and bearing in mind that any form of disagreement with the liberals around here only gets you called "Stupid", the only path to World Peace is tough, but one consistent with the values held by many high post count holders.
We should concede New York, Los Angeles, and the University of Wisconsin to Terrorist's Nuclear Weapon attacks. Just let the 'freedom fighters' in (and really, we should pay the freight on the nukes to show them that we're not cheap and that we want, we so desperately want, to be friends) and let them set off whatever they want whenever they want. Of course, we shouldn't warn the populations of those targets; that would be a pre-emptive/defensive action on the part of the United States and therefore repleat with Pro-American bad form (forgive the redudancy). The terrorists will be so consumed with guilt and remorse that they'll never, ever do that again. They'll throw down their weapons and come crying to us that they are sorry and want to be friends. Then they'll apply for citizenship and will all vote Democrat thus throwing the hated President Bush upon the junkheap of history.
The next step would be to replace the Constitution of the United States with Islamic Law. Frankly, it would do some of you some good to be expertly punished for your sins against the Koran; consider it a character building life experience. And some of our liberal women would find their fashion lives simplified with a Burkha-centric wardrobe to say nothing of the aerobic benefit derived from being soundly beaten with a steel club for being outdoors without a male family member/escort.
This is the only path to peace in this season of peace.
Here's some real terrorism statistics. Nearly 10,000 Americans killed by domestic terror groups (streetgangs) over a 20 year period in one major city alone, an average of 470+ each year. Your chances of being killed or injured in this variety of domestic terrorism in the US...for example being randomly carjacked or being hit by a drive-by shooter's bullet etc etc, is many orders of magnitude greater than being involved in an attack by an international extremist group...which happen on an extremely rare basis here. The statistically greatest risk to people here, terrorism by streetgangs is being virtually ignored in our lopsided, arbitrary, cherrypicked "war against terror". Incidentally, would a genre of music extolling islamic religious fundamentalist violence be tolerated on MTV?
Strategy against this variety of terrorism is like any of the others: address the causes and the ways and means they get financed.
People hate the US because they been taught to hate the US. Be they Islamicists by their Mullahs, or pinko liberals "intellectuals" by their KGB puppet masters. And the reasons are simple. The US stand for freedom and democracy, and the others oppose it. It's that simple.
I just wish that any of those sentences were true. Wouldn´t everything just be easier?
People still think education is some sort of ill-defined panacea for hate and war. It ain't. See the 9/11 hijackers for that lesson. That's not to say education isn't important, but it doesn't really solve anything. Education can be seen as intellectual colonialism. That would only fuel more hatred. Frankly, I think so much hatred and terrorist recruitment has more to do with money and the standard of living, who has it and who doesn't, than any religious or moral cause. It's a rather machiavellian perspective, but I think ultimately money (and food as the first correlative) is a stronger force in people's lives than religion or morality. Most people walk through life looking down at their shoes.
Comments
Originally posted by drewprops
The people you're talking about is a small group of fanatics. They're a minority in their own homeland. It's true that the current generation is not going to lay down their weapons. But it is very possible to prevent the "disease" from spreading. Not many people will become terrorists, tolerate terrorists, or support terrorists, when they have peace and are not subject to harassment and censure.
Forcing a peace is never a long-term solution, but it can work in the short term to stop the physical fighting. If that situation goes on long enough that the peaceful majority on both sides re-develop trust in each other, there can be real peace. And in the Israeli-Palestinian situation there is clear wish for a peace from both sides. In my opinion it's the terrorists on one side, Sharon on the other who are spoiling it for everybody. There's even a strong pro-peace movement surfacing in the Israeli Defense Forces, both upper and lower ranks.
Regarding SDW2001's comments...
With the cruise missile thing I meant that it is OK to use force against the real terrorists, you don't have to mollycoddle killers.
Obviously it's no good to use force in the instances where you'll have significant collateral damage (innocents dead), since that'll just give more manpower to the terrorists later.
You ridiculed my viewpoint, but didn't care to present your own. Do you have one, or were you just trolling?
Maybe if we (americans) stopped sending troops all around the planet to enforce our will, then maybe ?terrorists? would leave us alone. Or just maybe if we stopped bombing a new country every year, people might not hate us so much.
Unfortunately, our government doesn't seem to understand that you can't make people like you by intimidating or bombing everyone.
A five-dollar hunk of steel could easily derail a train on a bridge. Spend a few more bucks and even the least creative person can find a vulnerable target in the states. It simply isn't possible to defend every sky-scraper, stadium, municipal building, dam, bridge, hospital, power plant, and mile of high-voltage power line etc. And then there is the food and water supply and this hasn't even scratched the surface of the list of potential targets. What if the blood bank was tainted? What if all of the hospitals in a metropolitan area were hit with cheap but radiologically-dirty bombs?
The only way to stop? terrorism? is... there is no way to stop terrorism. There will always be unstable and violent people on the planet. However, we can decrease the likely hood of being the victim of ?terrorism? by simply not bullying the rest of the world around and attacking so many countries.
I'm ashamed of America's foreign policy and try to speak out against it whenever the subject of ?terrorism? arises. Hopefully our country will not make a habit of invading nations on the other side of the planet while pretending that it makes us safer.
Otherwise, duck and cover.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Well, I'll ammend the previous post per my perspective: stop supporting dictators and tyrants elsewhere in the world.
The biggest supporter of dictators and tyrants is the UN. Why not crash some planes into their buildings around the world? What the hell is taking so long?!!! And if they have a problem with their respective governments do the same to their government buildings!!
That's the spirit, giant!
1. Stabilize, democratize, and secularize the Islamic world (starting with Iraq).
2. Stop pretending that we can defend against terrorism (there are too many potential targets)
3. Spend as much switching to hydrogen as we spent on the wars in the middle east.
4. Withdrawal all financial support if Isreal doesn't do exactly what we tell them to do to acheive peace.
Originally posted by majorspunk
The biggest supporter of dictators and tyrants is the UN. Why not crash some planes into their buildings around the world? What the hell is taking so long?!!! And if they have a problem with their respective governments do the same to their government buildings!!
Of course what these Islamic terrorists are all about is ending tyranty and dictatorship in the Islamic world.
Secularism is the fastest growing "religion" going....but nobody knows it.
That way local businesses could put up signs if they don't want terrorists to come in their stores.
Then all the terrorists would have to keep applying for terrorism permits. That should keep 'em busy.
Originally posted by drewprops
I certainly wouldn't want to secularize the Islamic world, in fact, I would defend their right to their religion. Forced secularism is intellectual colonialism. By imposing your secularity on them only increases their hatred and distrust.
I meant with respect to their governments, of course, but without forced theism (the present situation) I'm sure secularism would spread in the general populace as well.
Originally posted by Gon
Depends what kind of terrorism.
Most obvious thing is to cut their motives. Think what makes them angry and make that go away. A good start would be to force a peace on Israelis and Palestinians until the border thing is settled. Promote education in poor countries. Promote unbiased media. Never tell lies in public, not to other countries, not to your own citizens. Never attack other countries with fake "evidence" and invent new motives as the "evidence" is proven wrong.
Then cut down the terrorists' material and manpower support. Take the stance that terrorists are criminals and they will be caught primarily by police methods, not by military. Most importantly, freeze their money and pay for good in-person undercover work in stead of building more spy satellites and strategic missile defenses. Only attack a whole country if there's real proof that the country sponsors terrorism. If there are a few terrorist camps along a border in an undeveloped country, feel free to shoot them up with cruise missiles, no need to go to war and demonize the whole country for that.
I think it's a waste of time to put a lot of resources to static defense like guarding specific targets. The terrorists are just going to hit something else. Static defenses only stop idiots and give people a false sense of security.
A plan for failure.
We should concede New York, Los Angeles, and the University of Wisconsin to Terrorist's Nuclear Weapon attacks. Just let the 'freedom fighters' in (and really, we should pay the freight on the nukes to show them that we're not cheap and that we want, we so desperately want, to be friends) and let them set off whatever they want whenever they want. Of course, we shouldn't warn the populations of those targets; that would be a pre-emptive/defensive action on the part of the United States and therefore repleat with Pro-American bad form (forgive the redudancy). The terrorists will be so consumed with guilt and remorse that they'll never, ever do that again. They'll throw down their weapons and come crying to us that they are sorry and want to be friends. Then they'll apply for citizenship and will all vote Democrat thus throwing the hated President Bush upon the junkheap of history.
The next step would be to replace the Constitution of the United States with Islamic Law. Frankly, it would do some of you some good to be expertly punished for your sins against the Koran; consider it a character building life experience. And some of our liberal women would find their fashion lives simplified with a Burkha-centric wardrobe to say nothing of the aerobic benefit derived from being soundly beaten with a steel club for being outdoors without a male family member/escort.
This is the only path to peace in this season of peace.
Peace-peace-peace.
Just tryin' t' agree,
Aries 1B
Here's some real terrorism statistics. Nearly 10,000 Americans killed by domestic terror groups (streetgangs) over a 20 year period in one major city alone, an average of 470+ each year. Your chances of being killed or injured in this variety of domestic terrorism in the US...for example being randomly carjacked or being hit by a drive-by shooter's bullet etc etc, is many orders of magnitude greater than being involved in an attack by an international extremist group...which happen on an extremely rare basis here. The statistically greatest risk to people here, terrorism by streetgangs is being virtually ignored in our lopsided, arbitrary, cherrypicked "war against terror". Incidentally, would a genre of music extolling islamic religious fundamentalist violence be tolerated on MTV?
Strategy against this variety of terrorism is like any of the others: address the causes and the ways and means they get financed.
Originally posted by majorspunk
People hate the US because they been taught to hate the US. Be they Islamicists by their Mullahs, or pinko liberals "intellectuals" by their KGB puppet masters. And the reasons are simple. The US stand for freedom and democracy, and the others oppose it. It's that simple.
I just wish that any of those sentences were true. Wouldn´t everything just be easier?
Originally posted by Anders
I just wish that any of those sentences were true. Wouldn´t everything just be easier?
No you don't.