Except rageous is right. Passing this law isn't as simple a matter as Giaguara painted it. What's YOUR point?
um, he was being the descriptor i used.
he could have easily stated that this is a law being proposed by the president, which has to follow normal passage means. my point is that he made the exquisite description of americans as egotistical assholes and he then acted like one. it was perfect, and i had to act on it lest the irony escape people.
The search for a better life with greater purpose and opportunity is a human story not unique to our times alone. On the one hand people can point the finger at an "illegal" person and say things like "well they are illegal, they need to go through the same process as those who seek immigration legally". The only problem is that if that were the answer people would not be coming over illegally. The demand to enter the US is greater than the stream of legal recognition given to legal immigrants.
To turn back people who wish to seek a life with greater purpose and oppotunity is to turn back our fellow brothers and sisters.
This Story is not unlike the issue we discuss in this thread.
The risk people take for a better life should teach us all a lesson in understanding.
We are all brothers and sisters on this planet. May we understand what makes us all human.
... he could have easily stated that this is a law being proposed by the president, which has to follow normal passage means. my point is that he made the exquisite description of americans as egotistical assholes and he then acted like one. it was perfect, and i had to act on it lest the irony escape people.
Exquisite description or not rageous was right and Giahuara was flatly wrong. I suppose rageous could have made his point in a different manner but there's nothing ironic about that.
And yes, Bush COULD issue an executive order but such an order would be challenged immediately in the courts. It would never be implemented. Executive orders need to be able to make some reference to existing law or to the President's powers under the Constitution. Such a wholesale rewriting of existing immigration law wouldn't pass that test.
Hey, how come they don't put snipers out patrolling the border? A little target practice for the special forces crew? Yeah, I know it sounds pretty sick, but for some reason I wouldn't find it so wrong as to reject it outright... Hell, make a gameshow out of it! Sort of like the "Running Man"!
Also, put a crew with those heat-sensing goggles watching trucks come through the checkpoint (I dunno if the technology exists to that extent, though- just an idea). If you see a bunch of warm bodies huddled in the back, shake it down...
Exquisite description or not rageous was right and Giahuara was flatly wrong.
Giaguara's point is simple. Bush's move is a political one. If we look at the timing and how long it's going to take to pass, it would pass after the election. Use the example of Reagan, similar law, long time to pass. Bush's timing is pure election BS.
he did this during the 2000 election, playing palsy-walsy with mexican president fox. fox now realizes how he was used, and last time i heard wasn't returning bush's phone calls.
Some say there's really no harm in someone sneaking in illegally to get a job. The last statistic I read was a million illegals a year pouring through. 90% of those who are apprehended are back the next day or week, sneaking through again.
Consequences? It's not just people taking jobs Americans don't want. Once one gets a job, his whole family comes up.
The schools are chock full of the children of illegals, whose parents, for the most part, are not paying into the tax base commensurate with what they take out. In some states, the schools are funded almost completely by property owners' taxes. No illegals in that pool, yet they consume a huge percentage of school resources. Special teachers are hired because the kids don't speak English; non-English-speaking students are placed in the regular classroom in ever-increasing numbers, and teachers are required to change lesson structure and speed of material coverage to accommodate them. Illegals fill up costly learning disabled classes, which siphon funds from regular programs. All these services require vast expenditures of very limited education funds.
We've had to cut $150,000 from our school budget every year for the last five years. For this school year, we had to cut an additional $100,000. So for that $250,000 in cuts, we had to pink slip (let go) six teachers! The Literature elective I was teaching was axed, and now I'm back teaching Language Arts, though my M.A. is in Literature; and now the students have much less lit. in their curriculum. Result of losing six teachers - the classes are bigger, electives have gone, students are charged fees to participate in after-school sports or the sports would be gone, too.
I would say 35% of the students are now receiving free breakfast and lunch, all paid for by the taxpayer. In many schools in the city, that figure is more like 80% receiving free breakfast and lunch.
The illegals use the highest-priced free medical care available - emergency rooms - paid for by the rest of us in increased fees. Or even worse, many, many hospitals have closed down their ER's because they were bankrupting the hospitals. So those of us who do pay for medical services, one way or another, now have fewer emergency rooms available to us because of illegals.
The crime rate involving illegals, and the consequent police, court and jail costs are breaking the systems.
And let's talk about Mexico. A few years ago, I was shocked to read in Newsweek that of the seven national banks, three were found to have been involved in money-laundering for the drug cartels. One of an ex-president's brothers was involved in the drug business; the police have been corrupt for decades and in many cases are the actual ones involved in car theft, burglary, kidnapping for ransom, etc. But the rich in Mexico are VERY rich; and money sent back to families from illegals with US jobs is a gigantic part of the Mexican economy. No way does Fox want to stop the flood of illegals. His country runs on their money.
I could go on, but it's too depressing.
And, on a side note, I bought books on Costa Rica to see what the requirements would be to live there a few months a year. The hurdles placed in the way of legal, part-time residency were unbelievable. A person would have to get a Costa Rican lawyer to sort out all the requirements. And yet here, all you have to do is walk across a dry river bed on a dark night.
It's not fair that Americans are paying our hard-earned tax money to feed, educate and care medically for millions of people from countries with irresponsible or corrupt governments. And that our children have money drained from their own educational systems to provide unlimited services for illegals. And that our health systems(ER's) are required by law to provide the most expensive care in an emergency venue to illegals who show up with needs - they can't be turned away. And the police, the courts - overburdened; the prisons we have to keep building with our tax money.
So, you cannot just say, "What's the problem if someone sneaks in to take a job we don't want." It's a LOT more complicated than that, my friends.
Carol A, I understand your point but our country already devotes millions to the common cause of eradicating diseases in other countries, ones whose governments are corrupt and irresponsible. Not that this directly correlates to what you were saying but a blanket statement like our country should not do such and such for the people of another country because their government is corrupt implies more than I think you want it to imply.
Work visas arent going to give the state any more money for schools generally since the basis for the funding is property taxes in most places. Cuts in education are due to mismanagement of these taxes, and not due to the influx of illegal immigrant students. They have to live somewhere, and the property on which they live provides funding for the schools. You wouldnt want homeless children not to go to school because their parents cannot afford property taxes. Poorer areas have poorer schools necessarily in our current system.
These arguments can be expanded to hospitals etc...
Carol A, I understand your point but our country already devotes millions to the common cause of eradicating diseases in other countries, ones whose governments are corrupt and irresponsible. Not that this directly correlates to what you were saying but a blanket statement like our country should not do such and such for the people of another country because their government is corrupt implies more than I think you want it to imply.
Work visas arent going to give the state any more money for schools generally since the basis for the funding is property taxes in most places. Cuts in education are due to mismanagement of these taxes, and not due to the influx of illegal immigrant students. They have to live somewhere, and the property on which they live provides funding for the schools. You wouldnt want homeless children not to go to school because their parents cannot afford property taxes. Poorer areas have poorer schools necessarily in our current system.
These arguments can be expanded to hospitals etc...
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
It's a LOT more complicated than that, my friends.
Greetings Carol A
I realize that what I posted may have sounded like a ringing endorsement of "sure let any and all in the US". To that I must apologize for leaving my thoughts open and not fully explained. I agree with you ( it is simply a fact ) that the US is facing a tax revenue shortage and a ballooning burden in local, state, and federal government budgets due to income from illegal status immigrants evading the process of taxation all the while the kids of these workers pour into the schools adding financial burden not to mention additional burden to roads, hospitals etc.
This leaves us with the question. "What do we do?"
I believe academic studies and a government commission should be put into motion to evaluate options and policy to help find solutions to this issue.
...all the while the kids of these workers pour into the schools adding financial burden not to mention additional burden to roads, hospitals etc.
It bears mentioning, that we aren't just talking about an extra 2.2 kids per family, either. It's more like 6, 7, 8, 10?! Seriously, I've seen it. This is not seen as a "large" family, in the slightest. Try to convince a devout, traditional Catholic to use condoms- just try. They don't call it quits until they get it up into that 6 kid range, after which they finally reason that tying the tubes is the answer (never mind why condoms should have been such a mental quandry up to that point, if tying the tubes is fair game).
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
Interesting that you bring this up Powerdoc.
One thing that is very sad in the world is how people are not happy one way or the other way and balance is never found for the benefit of the people.
For example. If the US,EU or Japan have corporations go out into the world and "set up shop" in poorer countries somewhere between those corporations and the starved for cash corrupt leaders the native people of the "poorer underdeveloped countries" are sold out.
Again I believe it is good to "set up shop" in the countries but not to exploit rather to spread economic opportunity, growth and trade.
On the one hand we do not want people of the under-developed countries crying "imperialism" for "setting up shop"
On the other hand we do want to help them.
I wish there was an honest forum that took into account the human condition over profits.
There must be an equitable profit sharing balance between "shop" (corporation) and "worker"
...time to slap on some UN sanctions to force reform?
No of course not. We should just invade Canada (the resistance will be lower than in Mexico) to the 54° 40' line. Then threaten the same treatment for mexico until we set up a protectorate area south of texas to wherever the boarder area was during the Mexican-American war.
That should put us back appropriately to oh about 1854.
It bears mentioning, that we aren't just talking about an extra 2.2 kids per family, either. It's more like 6, 7, 8, 10?! Seriously, I've seen it. This is not seen as a "large" family, in the slightest. Try to convince a devout, traditional Catholic to use condoms- just try. They don't call it quits until they get it up into that 6 kid range, after which they finally reason that tying the tubes is the answer (never mind why condoms should have been such a mental quandry up to that point, if tying the tubes is fair game).
...and they will joke around with the "breeding as a strategic avenue for take-over" notion, but sometimes I don't think they are really joking...
Hey, I would like to get some breeding on for myself, now that you mention it! I should mention that they will cock-block you in a Santa Ana minute, should you even show an interest in "one of theirs". ...and people think the Japanese had a problem with racial purity issues?... I can tell you a lot of them are still stuck in that "women are property" mindset- I'm not $hitting you.
(...and don't anyone tell me that I seem to have a hatred toward Mexicans. My best friend from high school is Mexican. I even acknowledge a few where I work that are very intelligent and reasonable human beings. I have no problem in believing that they are capable of comparable enlightenment to you or me. At the same time, I have personally witnessed some of the worst examples to dignify their culture. Believe me, it's enough to make you want to hate Mexicans altogether, but I know that is wrong.)
Comments
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
Except rageous is right. Passing this law isn't as simple a matter as Giaguara painted it. What's YOUR point?
um, he was being the descriptor i used.
he could have easily stated that this is a law being proposed by the president, which has to follow normal passage means. my point is that he made the exquisite description of americans as egotistical assholes and he then acted like one. it was perfect, and i had to act on it lest the irony escape people.
To turn back people who wish to seek a life with greater purpose and oppotunity is to turn back our fellow brothers and sisters.
This Story is not unlike the issue we discuss in this thread.
The risk people take for a better life should teach us all a lesson in understanding.
We are all brothers and sisters on this planet. May we understand what makes us all human.
Fellowship
Originally posted by billybobsky
... he could have easily stated that this is a law being proposed by the president, which has to follow normal passage means. my point is that he made the exquisite description of americans as egotistical assholes and he then acted like one. it was perfect, and i had to act on it lest the irony escape people.
Exquisite description or not rageous was right and Giahuara was flatly wrong. I suppose rageous could have made his point in a different manner but there's nothing ironic about that.
And yes, Bush COULD issue an executive order but such an order would be challenged immediately in the courts. It would never be implemented. Executive orders need to be able to make some reference to existing law or to the President's powers under the Constitution. Such a wholesale rewriting of existing immigration law wouldn't pass that test.
Also, put a crew with those heat-sensing goggles watching trucks come through the checkpoint (I dunno if the technology exists to that extent, though- just an idea). If you see a bunch of warm bodies huddled in the back, shake it down...
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
Exquisite description or not rageous was right and Giahuara was flatly wrong.
Giaguara's point is simple. Bush's move is a political one. If we look at the timing and how long it's going to take to pass, it would pass after the election. Use the example of Reagan, similar law, long time to pass. Bush's timing is pure election BS.
Consequences? It's not just people taking jobs Americans don't want. Once one gets a job, his whole family comes up.
The schools are chock full of the children of illegals, whose parents, for the most part, are not paying into the tax base commensurate with what they take out. In some states, the schools are funded almost completely by property owners' taxes. No illegals in that pool, yet they consume a huge percentage of school resources. Special teachers are hired because the kids don't speak English; non-English-speaking students are placed in the regular classroom in ever-increasing numbers, and teachers are required to change lesson structure and speed of material coverage to accommodate them. Illegals fill up costly learning disabled classes, which siphon funds from regular programs. All these services require vast expenditures of very limited education funds.
We've had to cut $150,000 from our school budget every year for the last five years. For this school year, we had to cut an additional $100,000. So for that $250,000 in cuts, we had to pink slip (let go) six teachers! The Literature elective I was teaching was axed, and now I'm back teaching Language Arts, though my M.A. is in Literature; and now the students have much less lit. in their curriculum. Result of losing six teachers - the classes are bigger, electives have gone, students are charged fees to participate in after-school sports or the sports would be gone, too.
I would say 35% of the students are now receiving free breakfast and lunch, all paid for by the taxpayer. In many schools in the city, that figure is more like 80% receiving free breakfast and lunch.
The illegals use the highest-priced free medical care available - emergency rooms - paid for by the rest of us in increased fees. Or even worse, many, many hospitals have closed down their ER's because they were bankrupting the hospitals. So those of us who do pay for medical services, one way or another, now have fewer emergency rooms available to us because of illegals.
The crime rate involving illegals, and the consequent police, court and jail costs are breaking the systems.
And let's talk about Mexico. A few years ago, I was shocked to read in Newsweek that of the seven national banks, three were found to have been involved in money-laundering for the drug cartels. One of an ex-president's brothers was involved in the drug business; the police have been corrupt for decades and in many cases are the actual ones involved in car theft, burglary, kidnapping for ransom, etc. But the rich in Mexico are VERY rich; and money sent back to families from illegals with US jobs is a gigantic part of the Mexican economy. No way does Fox want to stop the flood of illegals. His country runs on their money.
I could go on, but it's too depressing.
And, on a side note, I bought books on Costa Rica to see what the requirements would be to live there a few months a year. The hurdles placed in the way of legal, part-time residency were unbelievable. A person would have to get a Costa Rican lawyer to sort out all the requirements. And yet here, all you have to do is walk across a dry river bed on a dark night.
It's not fair that Americans are paying our hard-earned tax money to feed, educate and care medically for millions of people from countries with irresponsible or corrupt governments. And that our children have money drained from their own educational systems to provide unlimited services for illegals. And that our health systems(ER's) are required by law to provide the most expensive care in an emergency venue to illegals who show up with needs - they can't be turned away. And the police, the courts - overburdened; the prisons we have to keep building with our tax money.
So, you cannot just say, "What's the problem if someone sneaks in to take a job we don't want." It's a LOT more complicated than that, my friends.
Work visas arent going to give the state any more money for schools generally since the basis for the funding is property taxes in most places. Cuts in education are due to mismanagement of these taxes, and not due to the influx of illegal immigrant students. They have to live somewhere, and the property on which they live provides funding for the schools. You wouldnt want homeless children not to go to school because their parents cannot afford property taxes. Poorer areas have poorer schools necessarily in our current system.
These arguments can be expanded to hospitals etc...
Originally posted by billybobsky
Carol A, I understand your point but our country already devotes millions to the common cause of eradicating diseases in other countries, ones whose governments are corrupt and irresponsible. Not that this directly correlates to what you were saying but a blanket statement like our country should not do such and such for the people of another country because their government is corrupt implies more than I think you want it to imply.
Work visas arent going to give the state any more money for schools generally since the basis for the funding is property taxes in most places. Cuts in education are due to mismanagement of these taxes, and not due to the influx of illegal immigrant students. They have to live somewhere, and the property on which they live provides funding for the schools. You wouldnt want homeless children not to go to school because their parents cannot afford property taxes. Poorer areas have poorer schools necessarily in our current system.
These arguments can be expanded to hospitals etc...
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
Originally posted by Carol A
It's a LOT more complicated than that, my friends.
Greetings Carol A
I realize that what I posted may have sounded like a ringing endorsement of "sure let any and all in the US". To that I must apologize for leaving my thoughts open and not fully explained. I agree with you ( it is simply a fact ) that the US is facing a tax revenue shortage and a ballooning burden in local, state, and federal government budgets due to income from illegal status immigrants evading the process of taxation all the while the kids of these workers pour into the schools adding financial burden not to mention additional burden to roads, hospitals etc.
This leaves us with the question. "What do we do?"
I believe academic studies and a government commission should be put into motion to evaluate options and policy to help find solutions to this issue.
Fellowship
Originally posted by billybobsky
I completely agree Powerdoc, but we dont help our neighbors because they're not strategic targets.
...time to slap on some UN sanctions to force reform?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
...all the while the kids of these workers pour into the schools adding financial burden not to mention additional burden to roads, hospitals etc.
It bears mentioning, that we aren't just talking about an extra 2.2 kids per family, either. It's more like 6, 7, 8, 10?! Seriously, I've seen it. This is not seen as a "large" family, in the slightest. Try to convince a devout, traditional Catholic to use condoms- just try. They don't call it quits until they get it up into that 6 kid range, after which they finally reason that tying the tubes is the answer (never mind why condoms should have been such a mental quandry up to that point, if tying the tubes is fair game).
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I believe academic studies and a government commission should be put into motion to evaluate options and policy to help find solutions to this issue.
Sniper patrol on the borders and mandatory contraception should be pretty inexpensive...
Originally posted by Powerdoc
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
Interesting that you bring this up Powerdoc.
One thing that is very sad in the world is how people are not happy one way or the other way and balance is never found for the benefit of the people.
For example. If the US,EU or Japan have corporations go out into the world and "set up shop" in poorer countries somewhere between those corporations and the starved for cash corrupt leaders the native people of the "poorer underdeveloped countries" are sold out.
Again I believe it is good to "set up shop" in the countries but not to exploit rather to spread economic opportunity, growth and trade.
On the one hand we do not want people of the under-developed countries crying "imperialism" for "setting up shop"
On the other hand we do want to help them.
I wish there was an honest forum that took into account the human condition over profits.
There must be an equitable profit sharing balance between "shop" (corporation) and "worker"
Fellowship
Originally posted by Randycat99
...time to slap on some UN sanctions to force reform?
No of course not. We should just invade Canada (the resistance will be lower than in Mexico) to the 54° 40' line. Then threaten the same treatment for mexico until we set up a protectorate area south of texas to wherever the boarder area was during the Mexican-American war.
That should put us back appropriately to oh about 1854.
Originally posted by Randycat99
It bears mentioning, that we aren't just talking about an extra 2.2 kids per family, either. It's more like 6, 7, 8, 10?! Seriously, I've seen it. This is not seen as a "large" family, in the slightest. Try to convince a devout, traditional Catholic to use condoms- just try. They don't call it quits until they get it up into that 6 kid range, after which they finally reason that tying the tubes is the answer (never mind why condoms should have been such a mental quandry up to that point, if tying the tubes is fair game).
get to breeding man, they are going to take over!
Hey, I would like to get some breeding on for myself, now that you mention it!
(...and don't anyone tell me that I seem to have a hatred toward Mexicans. My best friend from high school is Mexican. I even acknowledge a few where I work that are very intelligent and reasonable human beings. I have no problem in believing that they are capable of comparable enlightenment to you or me. At the same time, I have personally witnessed some of the worst examples to dignify their culture. Believe me, it's enough to make you want to hate Mexicans altogether, but I know that is wrong.)