One thing that is very sad in the world is how people are not happy one way or the other way and balance is never found for the benefit of the people.
For example. If the US,EU or Japan have corporations go out into the world and "set up shop" in poorer countries somewhere between those corporations and the starved for cash corrupt leaders the native people of the "poorer underdeveloped countries" are sold out.
Again I believe it is good to "set up shop" in the countries but not to exploit rather to spread economic opportunity, growth and trade.
On the one hand we do not want people of the under-developed countries crying "imperialism" for "setting up shop"
On the other hand we do want to help them.
I wish there was an honest forum that took into account the human condition over profits.
There must be an equitable profit sharing balance between "shop" (corporation) and "worker"
Fellowship
Yes politic is complicated, because whe live in a global world. Everyone interfere with an other one. No countrie is able to do his own little cooking for herself. Everyone interact, and it leads to contradictions. Anyway it's too late for backpedalling, we just can try to pedal in a better direction even if it's not a straight one.
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
While I completly agree to that I have yet to see anything from any country do excatly that.
I often consider this: I was born in a country where every opportunity is given to me to chose the path I want to take, I am 28 years old, still studying to become a kick ass sociologist (and being paid to do so) and can get a $25/h job as easily as snapping my fingers any time based solely on my high school diploma. Did I do anything to get that position? No. I didn´t chose to be born by parents belonging to the 50-100 million most fortunate human beings in the world when regarding freedom of choice. I was born into a society i 1975 that I had contributed zero to. When children are born in Mexico, Turkey and other countries surrounding western europe or northern america (let alone africa or asia) they are not that fortunetly and doesn´t have the same chances at all as most of us do.
So while I agree that if all borders were open for mass immigration it would not do much but destroy the possibility to have welfare states that ensure freedom of choice for everyone when it comes to the choice of life paths it must be the first and foremost priority to spread those choices to the people in countries that doesn´t have them. And that will include a more equal global welfare distribution than we see now.
(Welfare here means access to health care, education and general freedom)
i dont know that all dictatorships are bad. I used to think that democracy or something close to it was necessary for the world to have full freedoms, but a democracy cant work everywhere and you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship.
i dont know that all dictatorships are bad. I used to think that democracy or something close to it was necessary for the world to have full freedoms, but a democracy cant work everywhere and you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship.
A democracy can nearly work everywhere but not immediatly. It require a clean admin and a culture of democratia.
I don't see how you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, by definition you have to obey to a dictator. It's not really full freedoms. Perhaps you wrote this too quickly.
True, a dictatorship isn't inherently bad, as long as it focuses on benevolence towards its people. Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing otherwise. So it is flawed by virtue of human tendencies to pursue absolute power and domination wherever/whenever the opportunity arises (C'mon, there's 3 gigantic LoTR movies about this nature already. Isn't this sinking in already?! ). Maybe a computer could make a good dictator (as long as it isn't sentient enough to be bent on destroying the human race), I dunno. A human? I remain unconvinced...
If you worked where I worked and observed the people I work with, you too would question the viability of the human race on a fundamental level altogether. The bad people far outnumber the good people. The fewer good people can perhaps forestall the self-destruction of humanity, but it is ultimately inevitable that the bad people will prevail. There's just too many of them for it to not happen. Anyways, that's another topic entirely, and I'm clearly ranting. Sorry!
I don't see how you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, by definition you have to obey to a dictator. It's not really full freedoms. Perhaps you wrote this too quickly.
Randycat99 has got it. There is also an assumption that we have "real" full freedoms anywhere. At some level the "social contract" is signed and so we sacrifice our "real" freedoms for common defense etc etc. That means I cant threaten the life of the us president in the us. or the life of a teacher etc etc. my freedoms arent real, they have to be protected and thus are given to me by my protectors.
Hey, did I mention that I have been harrassed (not sexually, but in passive aggressive hostility) by a woman at work for the past 5 months, and just Thursday someone threatened my life? This is all at work. ...but I like to drive cars. What can I say.
Thank you, Carol A, for a well presented argument.
You see, its not cut and dry. Its not-they are doing jobs Americans wont do, its-they are taking jobs that LEGAL immigrants and lower class Americans will do, but for at least the minimum wage. Businesses hire illegals not because they cant find anyone to do the job, but because they dont want to pay! They dont want to pay health insurance, or unemployment insurance, etc etc.
The ONLY jobs that we need temp workers for is farm labor-thats it!
Bush's plan is not just a 3 year plan. Its 3 years for each worker. Businesses can just claim that they cant find an American to do the job and then import cheap labor. Its ludicrous!
When the 1986 amnesty passed Los Angeles ceased to exist-it turned into a third world cesspool. I lived there and I have never seen a city self destruct so quickly.
Is there an answer? How about this:
Guest worker program for farms only. The farms must pay them a fair wage and provide housing. This will not lead to citizenship.
Go after businesses that hire illegals. Fine them so high and/or put them in jail to make it so they wouldnt want to take the chance of hiring them. Without jobs, they will most likely go back home.
Immediately act against illegals gathering on corners by having the Homeland security (wht a joke), have mobile vans set up in areas where the problem is severe. Immediate deportation.
Put the National Guard on the border to back up INS.
Presidential order giving anyone illegal living in the US 60 days to leave the country. If they are found after the 60 days they will be fingerprinted and never allowed to immigrate legally or get a visa of any kind for life.
Tell Vicente Fox to help fix the problem or NAFTA is done.
Tell Vicente Fox to pay more attention to Mexicos problems and not tell the US how to formulate policy.
It takes some guts, spine, and backbone but it can be done.
Comments
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Interesting that you bring this up Powerdoc.
One thing that is very sad in the world is how people are not happy one way or the other way and balance is never found for the benefit of the people.
For example. If the US,EU or Japan have corporations go out into the world and "set up shop" in poorer countries somewhere between those corporations and the starved for cash corrupt leaders the native people of the "poorer underdeveloped countries" are sold out.
Again I believe it is good to "set up shop" in the countries but not to exploit rather to spread economic opportunity, growth and trade.
On the one hand we do not want people of the under-developed countries crying "imperialism" for "setting up shop"
On the other hand we do want to help them.
I wish there was an honest forum that took into account the human condition over profits.
There must be an equitable profit sharing balance between "shop" (corporation) and "worker"
Fellowship
Yes politic is complicated, because whe live in a global world. Everyone interfere with an other one. No countrie is able to do his own little cooking for herself. Everyone interact, and it leads to contradictions. Anyway it's too late for backpedalling, we just can try to pedal in a better direction even if it's not a straight one.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
A french socialist leader, said one day about illegal immigration :" France canno't cure all the misery of the world". He add " we quite understand that this people want a better future, but if we really want to help, we will better help the countries from where this immigrants come from. It's the more efficient way to resolve this problems. "
While I completly agree to that I have yet to see anything from any country do excatly that.
I often consider this: I was born in a country where every opportunity is given to me to chose the path I want to take, I am 28 years old, still studying to become a kick ass sociologist (and being paid to do so) and can get a $25/h job as easily as snapping my fingers any time based solely on my high school diploma. Did I do anything to get that position? No. I didn´t chose to be born by parents belonging to the 50-100 million most fortunate human beings in the world when regarding freedom of choice. I was born into a society i 1975 that I had contributed zero to. When children are born in Mexico, Turkey and other countries surrounding western europe or northern america (let alone africa or asia) they are not that fortunetly and doesn´t have the same chances at all as most of us do.
So while I agree that if all borders were open for mass immigration it would not do much but destroy the possibility to have welfare states that ensure freedom of choice for everyone when it comes to the choice of life paths it must be the first and foremost priority to spread those choices to the people in countries that doesn´t have them. And that will include a more equal global welfare distribution than we see now.
(Welfare here means access to health care, education and general freedom)
Fellowship
Originally posted by billybobsky
i dont know that all dictatorships are bad. I used to think that democracy or something close to it was necessary for the world to have full freedoms, but a democracy cant work everywhere and you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship.
A democracy can nearly work everywhere but not immediatly. It require a clean admin and a culture of democratia.
I don't see how you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, by definition you have to obey to a dictator. It's not really full freedoms. Perhaps you wrote this too quickly.
If you worked where I worked and observed the people I work with, you too would question the viability of the human race on a fundamental level altogether. The bad people far outnumber the good people. The fewer good people can perhaps forestall the self-destruction of humanity, but it is ultimately inevitable that the bad people will prevail. There's just too many of them for it to not happen.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I don't see how you can have full freedoms under a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, by definition you have to obey to a dictator. It's not really full freedoms. Perhaps you wrote this too quickly.
Randycat99 has got it. There is also an assumption that we have "real" full freedoms anywhere. At some level the "social contract" is signed and so we sacrifice our "real" freedoms for common defense etc etc. That means I cant threaten the life of the us president in the us. or the life of a teacher etc etc. my freedoms arent real, they have to be protected and thus are given to me by my protectors.
You see, its not cut and dry. Its not-they are doing jobs Americans wont do, its-they are taking jobs that LEGAL immigrants and lower class Americans will do, but for at least the minimum wage. Businesses hire illegals not because they cant find anyone to do the job, but because they dont want to pay! They dont want to pay health insurance, or unemployment insurance, etc etc.
The ONLY jobs that we need temp workers for is farm labor-thats it!
Bush's plan is not just a 3 year plan. Its 3 years for each worker. Businesses can just claim that they cant find an American to do the job and then import cheap labor. Its ludicrous!
When the 1986 amnesty passed Los Angeles ceased to exist-it turned into a third world cesspool. I lived there and I have never seen a city self destruct so quickly.
Is there an answer? How about this:
Guest worker program for farms only. The farms must pay them a fair wage and provide housing. This will not lead to citizenship.
Go after businesses that hire illegals. Fine them so high and/or put them in jail to make it so they wouldnt want to take the chance of hiring them. Without jobs, they will most likely go back home.
Immediately act against illegals gathering on corners by having the Homeland security (wht a joke), have mobile vans set up in areas where the problem is severe. Immediate deportation.
Put the National Guard on the border to back up INS.
Presidential order giving anyone illegal living in the US 60 days to leave the country. If they are found after the 60 days they will be fingerprinted and never allowed to immigrate legally or get a visa of any kind for life.
Tell Vicente Fox to help fix the problem or NAFTA is done.
Tell Vicente Fox to pay more attention to Mexicos problems and not tell the US how to formulate policy.
It takes some guts, spine, and backbone but it can be done.