I'm just curious...how long does it take to get *done* with an MD? I'm asking because I have several friends I graduated from HS with who were beginning their practice as MDs while I was *just* finishing my Ph.D (with two years in there for an MA). I guess it boils down to my simply not understanding how the process works. I know there's med school (4 years?) followed by what? Can someone explain? Is it different in the US from in Europe?
Cheers
Scott
AFAIK, it's 4 years of med school and you're an MD. After that you can choose to do a residency but it's not required. The MDs I worked with last year (1st year residents) had just finished their med school. They were like working with 1st year grad students. No offense to them, but they still had to look up diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia.
In answer to your question, all it requires is 4 years beyond undergrad.
yes, the us and each country in europe sort of have its own system (i know at least the system in GB is very different).
In the us, its 4 years of "formal" training -- 2 years of which are course work and 2 years of which are clinical. After that there is the residency and intership(s) where training is obtained in specific fields and the time for these programs is field dependent. so yes, a 6 year phd and a 2 year ma could be finishing up at the same time as an md gets their wings.
Cool. So they're roughly comparable if you zip through the Ph.D.?
Not always true. I'm (going to be) a PhD in a medical center but our research will not be strictly medical. We'll be working with MDs, obviously, and they have their place but we are not working on the same things. PhDs are better equipped to do some things. And the same goes for MDs. And that's the way it should be.
Of course it's not always true.
Come to think of it my view is shaded. My department would shutdown if the PhDs weren't there everyday. The line between PhD=research and MD=clinic doesn't exist. Except for maybe the biologist. They have no role in our clinic. They do great research and help drive new treatments but if they were to go away the clinic would hum along like nothing happened.
Everyone just works well together. No battle lines between clinic and research.
In France if you want do a career in university hospital, you have to have both. It's a long process.
For a specialist MD, there is a 10-12 years studies. After there is post doctorate. During post doctorate, people who wants to stay at university are beginning a PHD course. Generally it's a 4 years process.
In France if you want do a career in university hospital, you have to have both. It's a long process.
For a specialist MD, there is a 10-12 years studies. After there is post doctorate. During post doctorate, people who wants to stay at university are beginning a PHD course. Generally it's a 4 years process.
I have problems to understand what is undergraduate. (at what age do you normally graduate ?)
at the age of 2 to 3 you enter in mother school
at the age of 6 where school is mandatory you enter in elementary school for 5 years
at the age of 11 you enter in the college (wich is different from our university college) for 4 years.
at the age of 15 you enter in the Lycee and you obtain after 3 years of studies your Baccalaureat ( a final exam) that is the necessary key to enter in university.
Then take place the 10-12 years program to get your MD. In some areas like surgery, generally you choose to make a post doctorate of 2-4 years before working in private hospital (alone).
Sorry! I didn't consider that the term might not translate.
I'll put it this way:
I began attending University in 1990 at the age of 17/18 (b'day in Sept.)
I went fast through everything (MA, Ph.D.) and graduated with my Ph.D. in 2003.
13 years, total. (and $64,000 in loans).
Is this comparable to the French system?
I think you can have a PHD in France in ten years (it depends of how many years you spend to build your doctorate work). You have the right to start your doctorate work after 6 years of studies. But it's not my field, i am not sure that i am totally accurate with this one.
You will hardly have loans, because you don't paid (or so few) for university, but it's difficult to find decent jobs when you are student here.
In my case, like you i went fast through everything (and it involved a good amount of luck) and graduate my MD 12 years later. I also began attending the university in 1984 at the age of 17/18 (b.day in november). I do 2 years of postgraduate, and start working as a freelance surgeon at the age of 32 (in a statical point of vue the average is 35)
In medical reasearch, most PhD are MD. But the PhD of MD have not the same weight (not the same level in physics science) than a standalone PhD.
I think you can have a PHD in France in ten years (it depends of how many years you spend to build your doctorate work). You have the right to start your doctorate work after 6 years of studies. But it's not my field, i am not sure that i am totally accurate with this one.
You will hardly have loans, because you don't paid (or so few) for university, but it's difficult to find decent jobs when you are student here.
In my case, like you i went fast through everything (and it involved a good amount of luck) and graduate my MD 12 years later. I also began attending the university in 1984 at the age of 17/18 (b.day in november). I do 2 years of postgraduate, and start working as a freelance surgeon at the age of 32 (in a statical point of vue the average is 35)
In medical reasearch, most PhD are MD. But the PhD of MD have not the same weight (not the same level in physics science) than a standalone PhD.
Gotcha. That makes sense. It's *roughly* comparable. In my field (English literature) it is *very* rare to find people with a PhD and a job before they're 30.
Then take place the 10-12 years program to get your MD. In some areas like surgery, generally you choose to make a post doctorate of 2-4 years before working in private hospital (alone).
That doesn't sound too far off from here. Starting at age 18:
- 4 years at university
- 4 years at medical school (after which you're officially an MD but are not licensed to practice on your own)
- 3-6 years of residency, in order be licensed in a particular field of medicine
All three components happen at different institutions, with separate application processes. In fact, many people do the first year of residency (internship) at a different institution than the rest of it.
Your post doctorate sounds like a fellowship - the last years of specialized training in your field.
That doesn't sound too far off from here. Starting at age 18:
- 4 years at university
- 4 years at medical school (after which you're officially an MD but are not licensed to practice on your own)
- 3-6 years of residency, in order be licensed in a particular field of medicine
All three components happen at different institutions, with separate application processes. In fact, many people do the first year of residency (internship) at a different institution than the rest of it.
Your post doctorate sounds like a fellowship - the last years of specialized training in your field.
Yes it's not so far off. In europe it tend to an homogeneisation. Any MD coming from Europe have the right to work in any european countries.
For the fellowship you may be right. However it's not mandatory, but in the surgery field, you should better have one for two reasons :
- in order to be more efficient, and i can say that in my fiel it's absolutely necessary.( i will add that you only reach your maximum level at the age of 40)
- in order to have the right to decide the level of your fees. Otherwise, it's the governement who decide how much you are paid. For example for a specialist it's 23 euros for a consultation and 140 euros for an appendicis cure. As i am post graduate i have the right to take more (the patient pay the difference).
This is from an eminent structural biologist in Cambridge (England, not Mass., to my surprise). His view, obviously, is that any neanderthal can practice medicine, that there is clearly no intellectual challange in diagnosing and managing a person's disease, or saving his life. OK, maybe he's had some bad experiences with the NHS in England. But what a horrible, dishonorable thing to say.
I find it amusing that the premise of this thread is that an MD was offended by the arrogance of a PhD.
Some PhDs are pretty bad, but not even in the same league as MDs when it comes to arrogance, in my experience. You folks can't even take one little underhanded comment without starting a thread about it? "Oh my God, there's someone in the world who doesn't graciously accept our ultimate dominion over all life on earth!"
I find it amusing that the premise of this thread is that an MD was offended by the arrogance of a PhD.
Some PhDs are pretty bad, but not even in the same league as MDs when it comes to arrogance, in my experience. You folks can't even take one little underhanded comment without starting a thread about it? "Oh my God, there's someone in the world who doesn't graciously accept our ultimate dominion over all life on earth!"
I don't know in the US, but i don't think that MD are particulary arrogants. I haven't any comments about PhD however.
I don't know in the US, but i don't think that MD are particulary arrogants. I haven't any comments about PhD however.
I think it's a requirement, or at least viewed very favorably, to have elevated scores on the Pd (psychopathic deviate - it correlates highly with narcissism) subscale of the MMPI-2 to be an MD.
Nearly every MD I've worked with, at least the residents/attendants at Dook, were extremely arrogant.
I think it's a requirement, or at least viewed very favorably, to have elevated scores on the Pd (psychopathic deviate - it correlates highly with narcissism) subscale of the MMPI-2 to be an MD.
Nearly every MD I've worked with, at least the residents/attendants at Dook, were extremely arrogant.
If they are arrogant the job will teach them humility ...
One thing I've noticed about med students, maybe not MDs in general, is that they are not interested in talking to anyone that's not in medical school too. You wanna kill a party invite a bunch of med students.
One thing I've noticed about med students, maybe not MDs in general, is that they are not interested in talking to anyone that's not in medical school too. You wanna kill a party invite a bunch of med students.
Well it must be real, because many people here say the same thing. I don't remember how i was, when i was a medical student. I tend to stay between us, much more because we where isolated, than anything else.
It's weird that people seeking to be in contact with many differents peoples, want to stay between them, but i guess it will change later, when they will have learn to talk to others people. There is not so much lessons of communication in medical school (at least in France), dispite that half of the job is based on this point.
One thing I've noticed about med students, maybe not MDs in general, is that they are not interested in talking to anyone that's not in medical school too. You wanna kill a party invite a bunch of med students.
I would suggest that that's not so much a matter of temperament as it is simply that they all work/study/live together. Through 8 years of grad work (MA/PhD) I socialized with almost no one who wasn't in my department, and the same went for most of the other folks.
Comments
Originally posted by midwinter
I'm just curious...how long does it take to get *done* with an MD? I'm asking because I have several friends I graduated from HS with who were beginning their practice as MDs while I was *just* finishing my Ph.D (with two years in there for an MA). I guess it boils down to my simply not understanding how the process works. I know there's med school (4 years?) followed by what? Can someone explain? Is it different in the US from in Europe?
Cheers
Scott
AFAIK, it's 4 years of med school and you're an MD. After that you can choose to do a residency but it's not required. The MDs I worked with last year (1st year residents) had just finished their med school. They were like working with 1st year grad students. No offense to them, but they still had to look up diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia.
In answer to your question, all it requires is 4 years beyond undergrad.
Originally posted by billybobsky
yes, the us and each country in europe sort of have its own system (i know at least the system in GB is very different).
In the us, its 4 years of "formal" training -- 2 years of which are course work and 2 years of which are clinical. After that there is the residency and intership(s) where training is obtained in specific fields and the time for these programs is field dependent. so yes, a 6 year phd and a 2 year ma could be finishing up at the same time as an md gets their wings.
Cool. So they're roughly comparable if you zip through the Ph.D.?
Originally posted by torifile
Not always true. I'm (going to be) a PhD in a medical center but our research will not be strictly medical. We'll be working with MDs, obviously, and they have their place but we are not working on the same things. PhDs are better equipped to do some things. And the same goes for MDs. And that's the way it should be.
Of course it's not always true.
Come to think of it my view is shaded. My department would shutdown if the PhDs weren't there everyday. The line between PhD=research and MD=clinic doesn't exist. Except for maybe the biologist. They have no role in our clinic. They do great research and help drive new treatments but if they were to go away the clinic would hum along like nothing happened.
Everyone just works well together. No battle lines between clinic and research.
For a specialist MD, there is a 10-12 years studies. After there is post doctorate. During post doctorate, people who wants to stay at university are beginning a PHD course. Generally it's a 4 years process.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
In France if you want do a career in university hospital, you have to have both. It's a long process.
For a specialist MD, there is a 10-12 years studies. After there is post doctorate. During post doctorate, people who wants to stay at university are beginning a PHD course. Generally it's a 4 years process.
is that 10-12 yrs including the undergraduate?
Originally posted by midwinter
is that 10-12 yrs including the undergraduate?
I have problems to understand what is undergraduate. (at what age do you normally graduate ?)
at the age of 2 to 3 you enter in mother school
at the age of 6 where school is mandatory you enter in elementary school for 5 years
at the age of 11 you enter in the college (wich is different from our university college) for 4 years.
at the age of 15 you enter in the Lycee and you obtain after 3 years of studies your Baccalaureat ( a final exam) that is the necessary key to enter in university.
Then take place the 10-12 years program to get your MD. In some areas like surgery, generally you choose to make a post doctorate of 2-4 years before working in private hospital (alone).
I'll put it this way:
I began attending University in 1990 at the age of 17/18 (b'day in Sept.)
I went fast through everything (MA, Ph.D.) and graduated with my Ph.D. in 2003.
13 years, total. (and $64,000 in loans).
Is this comparable to the French system?
Originally posted by midwinter
Sorry! I didn't consider that the term might not translate.
I'll put it this way:
I began attending University in 1990 at the age of 17/18 (b'day in Sept.)
I went fast through everything (MA, Ph.D.) and graduated with my Ph.D. in 2003.
13 years, total. (and $64,000 in loans).
Is this comparable to the French system?
I think you can have a PHD in France in ten years (it depends of how many years you spend to build your doctorate work). You have the right to start your doctorate work after 6 years of studies. But it's not my field, i am not sure that i am totally accurate with this one.
You will hardly have loans, because you don't paid (or so few) for university, but it's difficult to find decent jobs when you are student here.
In my case, like you i went fast through everything (and it involved a good amount of luck) and graduate my MD 12 years later. I also began attending the university in 1984 at the age of 17/18 (b.day in november). I do 2 years of postgraduate, and start working as a freelance surgeon at the age of 32 (in a statical point of vue the average is 35)
In medical reasearch, most PhD are MD. But the PhD of MD have not the same weight (not the same level in physics science) than a standalone PhD.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I think you can have a PHD in France in ten years (it depends of how many years you spend to build your doctorate work). You have the right to start your doctorate work after 6 years of studies. But it's not my field, i am not sure that i am totally accurate with this one.
You will hardly have loans, because you don't paid (or so few) for university, but it's difficult to find decent jobs when you are student here.
In my case, like you i went fast through everything (and it involved a good amount of luck) and graduate my MD 12 years later. I also began attending the university in 1984 at the age of 17/18 (b.day in november). I do 2 years of postgraduate, and start working as a freelance surgeon at the age of 32 (in a statical point of vue the average is 35)
In medical reasearch, most PhD are MD. But the PhD of MD have not the same weight (not the same level in physics science) than a standalone PhD.
Gotcha. That makes sense. It's *roughly* comparable. In my field (English literature) it is *very* rare to find people with a PhD and a job before they're 30.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Then take place the 10-12 years program to get your MD. In some areas like surgery, generally you choose to make a post doctorate of 2-4 years before working in private hospital (alone).
That doesn't sound too far off from here. Starting at age 18:
- 4 years at university
- 4 years at medical school (after which you're officially an MD but are not licensed to practice on your own)
- 3-6 years of residency, in order be licensed in a particular field of medicine
All three components happen at different institutions, with separate application processes. In fact, many people do the first year of residency (internship) at a different institution than the rest of it.
Your post doctorate sounds like a fellowship - the last years of specialized training in your field.
Originally posted by Towel
That doesn't sound too far off from here. Starting at age 18:
- 4 years at university
- 4 years at medical school (after which you're officially an MD but are not licensed to practice on your own)
- 3-6 years of residency, in order be licensed in a particular field of medicine
All three components happen at different institutions, with separate application processes. In fact, many people do the first year of residency (internship) at a different institution than the rest of it.
Your post doctorate sounds like a fellowship - the last years of specialized training in your field.
Yes it's not so far off. In europe it tend to an homogeneisation. Any MD coming from Europe have the right to work in any european countries.
For the fellowship you may be right. However it's not mandatory, but in the surgery field, you should better have one for two reasons :
- in order to be more efficient, and i can say that in my fiel it's absolutely necessary.( i will add that you only reach your maximum level at the age of 40)
- in order to have the right to decide the level of your fees. Otherwise, it's the governement who decide how much you are paid. For example for a specialist it's 23 euros for a consultation and 140 euros for an appendicis cure. As i am post graduate i have the right to take more (the patient pay the difference).
Originally posted by Towel
This is from an eminent structural biologist in Cambridge (England, not Mass., to my surprise). His view, obviously, is that any neanderthal can practice medicine, that there is clearly no intellectual challange in diagnosing and managing a person's disease, or saving his life. OK, maybe he's had some bad experiences with the NHS in England. But what a horrible, dishonorable thing to say.
I find it amusing that the premise of this thread is that an MD was offended by the arrogance of a PhD.
Some PhDs are pretty bad, but not even in the same league as MDs when it comes to arrogance, in my experience. You folks can't even take one little underhanded comment without starting a thread about it? "Oh my God, there's someone in the world who doesn't graciously accept our ultimate dominion over all life on earth!"
Originally posted by BRussell
I find it amusing that the premise of this thread is that an MD was offended by the arrogance of a PhD.
Some PhDs are pretty bad, but not even in the same league as MDs when it comes to arrogance, in my experience. You folks can't even take one little underhanded comment without starting a thread about it? "Oh my God, there's someone in the world who doesn't graciously accept our ultimate dominion over all life on earth!"
I don't know in the US, but i don't think that MD are particulary arrogants. I haven't any comments about PhD however.
Originally posted by Scott
We have a French doctor working in our department right now and for some odd reason he's a nice guy
That's why he is in USA
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I don't know in the US, but i don't think that MD are particulary arrogants. I haven't any comments about PhD however.
I think it's a requirement, or at least viewed very favorably, to have elevated scores on the Pd (psychopathic deviate - it correlates highly with narcissism) subscale of the MMPI-2 to be an MD.
Nearly every MD I've worked with, at least the residents/attendants at Dook, were extremely arrogant.
Originally posted by torifile
I think it's a requirement, or at least viewed very favorably, to have elevated scores on the Pd (psychopathic deviate - it correlates highly with narcissism) subscale of the MMPI-2 to be an MD.
Nearly every MD I've worked with, at least the residents/attendants at Dook, were extremely arrogant.
If they are arrogant the job will teach them humility ...
Originally posted by Scott
One thing I've noticed about med students, maybe not MDs in general, is that they are not interested in talking to anyone that's not in medical school too. You wanna kill a party invite a bunch of med students.
Well it must be real, because many people here say the same thing. I don't remember how i was, when i was a medical student. I tend to stay between us, much more because we where isolated, than anything else.
It's weird that people seeking to be in contact with many differents peoples, want to stay between them, but i guess it will change later, when they will have learn to talk to others people. There is not so much lessons of communication in medical school (at least in France), dispite that half of the job is based on this point.
Originally posted by Scott
One thing I've noticed about med students, maybe not MDs in general, is that they are not interested in talking to anyone that's not in medical school too. You wanna kill a party invite a bunch of med students.
I would suggest that that's not so much a matter of temperament as it is simply that they all work/study/live together. Through 8 years of grad work (MA/PhD) I socialized with almost no one who wasn't in my department, and the same went for most of the other folks.