Oh and Scott is right about the food, they hate our genetically modified crops here in Asia, and that would be excuse enough (acceptable by China) for Kim Jong Il to stop the ships from unloading.
I have to admit that it is not a realistic idea as Kim wouldn't let it trickle down . . or he would find some manner of converting whatever is given to NK into some sort of weapons or arms via some other irresponsible country . .
its not just as bad as you get from that article it is much much worse . . . . the killing of babies torture . . .its unbelievable and has been happening for so long . . . and everybody there is completely completely completely brainwashed . . . .the propaganda is absolutely NON-stop and literally pumped across all open spaces at high volume, the citizens watch each other all the time and can not appear to even look like dessent would cross their minds . . . thought crimes . . . Pico Iyer is a travel writer that visited and wrote a good article in his book Lonely Places . . . though I think it is a little lite
I think that the only real option would be something like a coordinated evacuation of Soeul, followed by massive massive surgical bombardments of the artillery and a rear guard invasion by a gigantic multinational force . . .
(anybody else having problems with this Safari updaye?)
That would never work. Just keep the ships at sea, keep the ships from unloading, let the food rot at the dock.
Look folks, I started a thread because I'm concerned and because of it I didn't like this post I've quoted above. Let's all read it together.
OK. I THINK what he was trying to say is that "That would never work. [North Korea would] just keep the ships at sea, keep the ships from unloading, let the food rot at the dock."
What he actually posted reads very differently than the edited verision I've given above. What scott actually posted reads more like "[We should] just keep the ships at sea...."
I can't be responsible for someone else's typos, I have enough trouble with my own.
Even if a food drop or something to get food to the masses were possible the media is under complete control of the Kim govt. They could just claim that their program of Ju-chei is working and this was produced by the government. Of course a few would know and those few that dared to say anything will go to Camp 22 or someplace equally horrendous.
This story is another illustration of why the world needs to do something immediately about N. Korea.
its not just as bad as you get from that article it is much much worse . . . .
My thoughts on it are this: 500,000 innocent dead by deliberate and calculated means is worse than 1,000,000 dead by 'natural' causes. So I know there's massive starvation, like there is in Africa. Just unfathomable numbers of people dying. But there are humanitarian ways of dealing with that.
What I can't justify is mass murder. By the end of Hussein's reign he was killing about 30 political prisoners a year. That's probably less than Texas kills. That's not mass murder even if it's wrong. But gas chambers and concentration camps deserve action even if the process of getting rid of them requires more death as a result.
1,000,000 dying in a war to stop the regime is better than 500,000 killed in camps. Obvioulsy a way to avoid either is ideal.
Even if a food drop or something to get food to the masses were possible the media is under complete control of the Kim govt. They could just claim that their program of Ju-chei is working and this was produced by the government. Of course a few would know and those few that dared to say anything will go to Camp 22 or someplace equally horrendous.
This story is another illustration of why the world needs to do something immediately about N. Korea.
bunge, withholding food from people is mass murder. what they can grow is taken away from them to feed soldiers, what we give is also taken away to feed soldiers.
bunge, withholding food from people is mass murder. what they can grow is taken away from them to feed soldiers, what we give is also taken away to feed soldiers.
I know it's all stolen and given to the military, but it's not quite as direct as a gas chamber. Starvation can be combated by long term solutions while executions are immediate. The immediacy of a concentration camp is what I think calls for immediate action. I was certainly in favor of action prior to reading this article. This just raises the stakes in my opinion.
The only kind of immediate action that could work is warfare or targetted assasinations . . .
the latter would be well nigh impossible
and the former would be very difficult in that NK has, I believe, the first or secong largest standing army . . . and they are all very convinced that the West is responsible for all of their woes and would love more than anything to kill us
All out war is not really an option. Somehow the people need to be educated that they are being oppressed, they certainly wont trust the west as pfflam said so it needs to come from south korea.
South Koreans have family in North Korea and vice versa, they need to take a more active role in contacting their lost family members and arranging extractions through china and and then getting word back to the people they left behind that they are okay and the propaganda was all lies.
This is not easy and requires great amounts of money and risk for those involved.
Just the thought of this Kim 'Great' leader makes me so sick . . . how can anybody rule so horribly and know it . . . and he does know it too, how can he live with himself?!?!
Well, it is pretty clear that NK currently has short and medium range missiles threatening all countries in the region including Japan. It is furthermore quite certain they have C-bombs (and maybe bioweapons though likely not A-bombs). As they are living in a kind of state paranoia for some decades, I do not doubt they would use them against South Korea and Japan (and against invading troops).
This rules out an Iraq-like aggression, because you cannot rule out the possibility of a NK first strike.
Which leaves only a decapitating strike where you would hope to eliminate the command structure from the top down to anyone able to launch missiles or non-military measures. Needless to say that killing the state leadership, military leadership and destroying the communications structure in the middle of the night is quite a high gamble if you risk triggering a war with WoMDs against civilian targets in neighboring countries.
So what to do? The most important part would be to get China into the boat. China is probably the only country with some influence on the NK government, so make them understand that NK is a lost cause and they are to gain from helping to topple the regime. Which would involve some crow dinner at the white house, I guess and possibly some shift in politics in SK regarding the relations to China.
Then line up China, Russia, Japan, the UN and completely isolate the country. NK has no natural resources, meaning it's lights out in some month (and more starved civilians). Have China and Russia perform some missile tests to the Japanese Sea and deploy missile defence to major SK cities to show them the stick and then offer to simply bribe them out. If you collect maybe $10bn and arrange for some country to take them as refugees, you might be able to persuade them hand over power to a pan-Korean government or some UN mandate.
If this does not work, try to settle an agreement where they are allowed to import oil if the UN is allowed to distribute food.
If this does still not work, one could maybe take out the nuclear facility in Nonbyon where they are trying to enrich Uranium to build A-bombs. This could, of course, trigger a war...
That sounds great Smircle but that's what the US is doing now. Trying to make it as multilateral as possible. It's almost working. But as I said before the world doesn't care. China only cares that north koreans are coming into China. South Korea only cares that NK stays in the north. Japan only cares that NK not bomb them and stop steeling it's people. Russia doesn't give a shit about any of it. The world doesn't care about those people.
The situation wont get any better. The UN wont do a damn thing. There wont be any uprising. The world wont unite against NK.
That's all fine Scott, but I think that S-Korean's do very much care about NK.
In fact I think that it is their care for it that has softened them towards a stance that needs to be taken. They want conciliation and a kind of relaxation towards NK . . . even though that has shown itself to be the wrong move over and over (kidnappings assasinations etc by NK) many S-Koreans have even protesting for the removal of American forces . . .
I understand that they find Bush's policy alarming in that his sword rattling and cutting of talk has removed their only hope at possible emelioration . .
but I also think that some S-Koreans are so comfortable and wealthy and missing their 'other half', in a kind of romantic pining fashion, that they begin to overlook the reality of the N-Korean regime (I have seen this with S-Korean students)
The only thing that seems a glimmer is the possibility of N-Korean Nukes . . . noot the real thing but the fear that they are on the verge . . . that might finally wake up China and get other countries on board and get some hard talking (but talking nonetheless) diplomacy happening . . . with some creative and risk taking ambassadors
I think that cutting NK off completely would not work as they would advance on SK before they starved completely . . . the army has fuel and lots of weapons and they also have starving families who's deaths they blame on the enemy . . . and if we cut them off entirely, they would be partly correct in that assumption
Well this is a real situation. Every bit as real as Iraq with one difference. They acctually really do have WOMD that could threaten us ( here in the U.S. ) for real!
I think a military approach would cost many lives. I think with some kind of coalition we would win but many more would die than are dieing right now.
I think the food approach is worth a try before going to war. If we do go to war I think the only sane and honorable way would be with a coalition of countries not just us. Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
Well this is a real situation. Every bit as real as Iraq with one difference. They acctually really do have WOMD that could threaten us ( here in the U.S. ) for real!
I think a military approach would cost many lives. I think with some kind of coalition we would win but many more would die than are dieing right now.
I think the food approach is worth a try before going to war. If we do go to war I think the only sane and honorable way would be with a coalition of countries not just us. Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
Which food option are you reffering to?
And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
*gasp*
Let the people who would pay actually decide what to do?
Comments
its not just as bad as you get from that article it is much much worse . . . . the killing of babies torture . . .its unbelievable and has been happening for so long . . . and everybody there is completely completely completely brainwashed . . . .the propaganda is absolutely NON-stop and literally pumped across all open spaces at high volume, the citizens watch each other all the time and can not appear to even look like dessent would cross their minds . . . thought crimes . . . Pico Iyer is a travel writer that visited and wrote a good article in his book Lonely Places . . . though I think it is a little lite
I think that the only real option would be something like a coordinated evacuation of Soeul, followed by massive massive surgical bombardments of the artillery and a rear guard invasion by a gigantic multinational force . . .
(anybody else having problems with this Safari updaye?)
Originally posted by Scott
That would never work. Just keep the ships at sea, keep the ships from unloading, let the food rot at the dock.
Look folks, I started a thread because I'm concerned and because of it I didn't like this post I've quoted above. Let's all read it together.
OK. I THINK what he was trying to say is that "That would never work. [North Korea would] just keep the ships at sea, keep the ships from unloading, let the food rot at the dock."
What he actually posted reads very differently than the edited verision I've given above. What scott actually posted reads more like "[We should] just keep the ships at sea...."
I can't be responsible for someone else's typos, I have enough trouble with my own.
This story is another illustration of why the world needs to do something immediately about N. Korea.
Originally posted by pfflam
its not just as bad as you get from that article it is much much worse . . . .
My thoughts on it are this: 500,000 innocent dead by deliberate and calculated means is worse than 1,000,000 dead by 'natural' causes. So I know there's massive starvation, like there is in Africa. Just unfathomable numbers of people dying. But there are humanitarian ways of dealing with that.
What I can't justify is mass murder. By the end of Hussein's reign he was killing about 30 political prisoners a year. That's probably less than Texas kills. That's not mass murder even if it's wrong. But gas chambers and concentration camps deserve action even if the process of getting rid of them requires more death as a result.
1,000,000 dying in a war to stop the regime is better than 500,000 killed in camps. Obvioulsy a way to avoid either is ideal.
Originally posted by LiquidR
Even if a food drop or something to get food to the masses were possible the media is under complete control of the Kim govt. They could just claim that their program of Ju-chei is working and this was produced by the government. Of course a few would know and those few that dared to say anything will go to Camp 22 or someplace equally horrendous.
This story is another illustration of why the world needs to do something immediately about N. Korea.
Exactly.
Fellows
That's murder.
Originally posted by LiquidR
This story is another illustration of why the world needs to do something immediately about N. Korea.
That's why I've linked to the article, only I haven't quite figured out what to do yet.
Originally posted by AsLan^
bunge, withholding food from people is mass murder. what they can grow is taken away from them to feed soldiers, what we give is also taken away to feed soldiers.
I know it's all stolen and given to the military, but it's not quite as direct as a gas chamber. Starvation can be combated by long term solutions while executions are immediate. The immediacy of a concentration camp is what I think calls for immediate action. I was certainly in favor of action prior to reading this article. This just raises the stakes in my opinion.
the latter would be well nigh impossible
and the former would be very difficult in that NK has, I believe, the first or secong largest standing army . . . and they are all very convinced that the West is responsible for all of their woes and would love more than anything to kill us
South Koreans have family in North Korea and vice versa, they need to take a more active role in contacting their lost family members and arranging extractions through china and and then getting word back to the people they left behind that they are okay and the propaganda was all lies.
This is not easy and requires great amounts of money and risk for those involved.
This rules out an Iraq-like aggression, because you cannot rule out the possibility of a NK first strike.
Which leaves only a decapitating strike where you would hope to eliminate the command structure from the top down to anyone able to launch missiles or non-military measures. Needless to say that killing the state leadership, military leadership and destroying the communications structure in the middle of the night is quite a high gamble if you risk triggering a war with WoMDs against civilian targets in neighboring countries.
So what to do? The most important part would be to get China into the boat. China is probably the only country with some influence on the NK government, so make them understand that NK is a lost cause and they are to gain from helping to topple the regime. Which would involve some crow dinner at the white house, I guess and possibly some shift in politics in SK regarding the relations to China.
Then line up China, Russia, Japan, the UN and completely isolate the country. NK has no natural resources, meaning it's lights out in some month (and more starved civilians). Have China and Russia perform some missile tests to the Japanese Sea and deploy missile defence to major SK cities to show them the stick and then offer to simply bribe them out. If you collect maybe $10bn and arrange for some country to take them as refugees, you might be able to persuade them hand over power to a pan-Korean government or some UN mandate.
If this does not work, try to settle an agreement where they are allowed to import oil if the UN is allowed to distribute food.
If this does still not work, one could maybe take out the nuclear facility in Nonbyon where they are trying to enrich Uranium to build A-bombs. This could, of course, trigger a war...
The situation wont get any better. The UN wont do a damn thing. There wont be any uprising. The world wont unite against NK.
In fact I think that it is their care for it that has softened them towards a stance that needs to be taken. They want conciliation and a kind of relaxation towards NK . . . even though that has shown itself to be the wrong move over and over (kidnappings assasinations etc by NK) many S-Koreans have even protesting for the removal of American forces . . .
I understand that they find Bush's policy alarming in that his sword rattling and cutting of talk has removed their only hope at possible emelioration . .
but I also think that some S-Koreans are so comfortable and wealthy and missing their 'other half', in a kind of romantic pining fashion, that they begin to overlook the reality of the N-Korean regime (I have seen this with S-Korean students)
The only thing that seems a glimmer is the possibility of N-Korean Nukes . . . noot the real thing but the fear that they are on the verge . . . that might finally wake up China and get other countries on board and get some hard talking (but talking nonetheless) diplomacy happening . . . with some creative and risk taking ambassadors
I think that cutting NK off completely would not work as they would advance on SK before they starved completely . . . the army has fuel and lots of weapons and they also have starving families who's deaths they blame on the enemy . . . and if we cut them off entirely, they would be partly correct in that assumption
I think a military approach would cost many lives. I think with some kind of coalition we would win but many more would die than are dieing right now.
I think the food approach is worth a try before going to war. If we do go to war I think the only sane and honorable way would be with a coalition of countries not just us. Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
Originally posted by jimmac
Well this is a real situation. Every bit as real as Iraq with one difference. They acctually really do have WOMD that could threaten us ( here in the U.S. ) for real!
I think a military approach would cost many lives. I think with some kind of coalition we would win but many more would die than are dieing right now.
I think the food approach is worth a try before going to war. If we do go to war I think the only sane and honorable way would be with a coalition of countries not just us. Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
Which food option are you reffering to?
And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
Originally posted by jimmac
Also it should be put before the american people. Be straight with them about the situation and see what they think we should do. Hell, put it to a vote!
*gasp*
Let the people who would pay actually decide what to do?
What kind of madman are you?