And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
Taking liberties with my posting order . . . page two
And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
I was talking about Bungie's food sugestion. If there are any options besides war we should look into those first. War with N. Korea would be the worst conflict we've had in the 50 years I've been alive. Much worse than the Korean war of the early 50's because now they can shoot missles at other countries like Japan ( or us ). I live on the west coast. Say they decided to take out Seattle or Portland? Not a pretty thing at all.
As far as official info just present your case to the american public. N Korea would see an attack coming ahead of time anyway. But by all means present real evidence not " Well we can't tell you for security reasons " BS.
Set things up with other countries ahead of time. But by all means don't go it alone.
No for supporting an anti-semetic dictator in the name of cheap oil for Europe. If France and Germany want to lead the world let them do. If they just want to veto the US then they should step aside.
We canno't always fix the problems of others. In the name of helping NK people we cannot make a war that will cost millions of live. NK is not Irak.
Unlike Irak it's a major threat, they have tons of WOMD and they will use it for sure.
For the moment we haven't any cure for NK, (or the cure are far worse than anything else). The evil dictator is not immortal, a succession war will happen, and when this time come, opportunities could appear.
Saying that France and Germany did not support the war because they are Anti-semitic is idiotic. Villepin (sp?) saw Powell's information, as did the President of France Chirac, and they both said it is not convincing . . .
and now we know why . . . because it WAS not real data . . . it was not convincing if you knew that it was BAD information.
ANd if their motive is oil then so is Bush's motives . . . in fact it would appear more convincing that that is the case for Bush with his numerous intertwining relations that have him completely entangled with the Oil Business itself . . . so either that is a lame answer ofr it is blame them for what we do . . .
However, back on topic, we CAN do something, at least we can try to do some of what I outlined above; very aggressive dialogue, psy-ops, and, attempt to reach into the Generals' corps to find a sympathetic ear . . . but do this sort of covert stuff pronto and very aggressively with the goal of opening up the eyes of anybody in NK with even the slightest bit of power
I would say one thing, it is not just for the NK people that this would be important but all countries except for mybe Iceland, stand to be directly harmed by NK . . . it is not just 'a problem with others' it is also our problem.
Another thing, the power structure in NK is one of constant struggle and watching one's back . . . it is very fuedal with little fiefdoms and power bases with Kim at the top micro-managing it all through fear and the panoptic bullhorn . . . it keeps them all unstable and focused away from what would ordinarily be the role of government: namely, caring for the people of a region.
Saying that France and Germany did not support the war because they are Anti-semitic is idiotic.
Scott actually said this:
Quote:
No for supporting an anti-semetic dictator in the name of cheap oil for Europe. If France and Germany want to lead the world let them do. If they just want to veto the US then they should step aside
Nowhere in those 39 words does Scott call France and Germany anti-semetic.
As for the rest of your analysis, due to the WMD controversy which your side has been harping upon, and the intelligence (vice White House) failure and problems thereof, I don't think that we should do anything for the moment. To go lunging after NK without suitable intel would be a catastrophe.
Nowhere in those 39 words does Scott call France and Germany anti-semetic.
As for the rest of your analysis, due to the WMD controversy which your side has been harping upon, and the intelligence (vice White House) failure and problems thereof, I don't think that we should do anything for the moment. To go lunging after NK without suitable intel would be a catastrophe.
Wouldn't it?
Aries 1B
I agree that lunging would certainly be a catastrophe.
I think that we can put pressure through intense diplomacy: our instigation to have dialogue . . . don't wait for them to talk get knocking on the door . . . get pushing and keep up the talk . . . non-stop and constant
get working behind the scenes
sothing dissolves miserable dictatorships than glimpses of what they are not doing right . . . counter-propaganda
as for Scott's statement (which you counted ) if you don't see the implied logic of his statement as obviouse then you are selectively misreading it . . . he meant to imply that France and Germany are Anti-Semitic and you know it, he has said as much in other posts.
Talking to North Korea is a waste of time. It's time to dredge up the Containment Strategy again.
Yes, there will be terrible consequences for the people of NK, but they are the consequences of the Government and the principles underwhich they live.
I live on the west coast. Say they decided to take out Seattle or Portland? Not a pretty thing at all.
With the problem we're facing, I'm not against that risk. Powerdoc is right though, that an opportunity might arise that gives us an out. Unfortunately no one knows when that might happen.
Iraq wasn't an emergency by any stretch of the imagination while I consider what's happening in North Korea to be an emergency. I don't like the thought of attacking, but I like the thought of doing not enough even less.
I think any diplomatic solution would have to be from China. If they threaten military action North Korea might listen.
I'd say that an opportunity exists for Germany and for France to redeem themselves. Go get 'em.
Redeem ourselves? For what? Not believing the chimp's obvious lies and rethorics about Iraq's WoMDs ready to launch in 15min? Or Tony B'Liars "secret service" reports copy-n-pasted from the internet? Or the Uranium hoax? Or that poor sap Powell making a total ass out of himself before the UN? You would not believe how many jokes start with "Powell says..." over here.
Naaa, mate, over here in Ol' Europe we like to think for ourselves, thank's a lot.
North Korea vs. South Korea is a straight product of the imperialist standoff between the USSR, China and the US after WW II - you created the mess, you clear it up.
********ATTENTION ALL POSTERS IN THE NORTH KOREA THREAD*******
Quote:
Originally posted by Aries 1B
Okay.
Talking to North Korea is a waste of time. It's time to dredge up the Containment Strategy again.
Yes, there will be terrible consequences for the people of NK, but they are the consequences of the Government and the principles underwhich they live.
Time to deploy some Aegeis Cruisers....
Aries 1B
All:
The above post prompted a personal response from one of the moderators thus:
Quote:
Honestly, I have little patience for the sort of post you made. I think you know exactly what my post was about, and you merely exacerbated the petty squabbling with your response.
Consider this a warning. Act so spitefully second time, and you're privileges will be revoked for a period of time.
I thought that the mod didn't want any more discussion on PERCEIVED Anti-Semitism. I agreed and went back ( I thought) on topic to the issue of North Korea and how we should deal with them.
My post states that talking to North Korea is a waste of time. The US tried to bribe NK with food, oil, nuclear reactors and what not so that they would not pursue an atomic weapon program. They agreed and then they violated the agreement. Based upon that, I believe that it is useless to talk to them.
The containment strategy that I referred to is what we did to the Soviet Union. Basically, just contain them and let them collapse from within.
In my second paragraph, I acknowledge that there are going to be terrible, terrible consequences for the people of North Korea, but I didn't, and I still don't, see any realistic way to help those poor people that will not be misdirected into the hands of the criminals running NK.
"Time to deploy some Aegis Cruisers...." herein corrects a spelling error and is a short hand way of suggesting that the US Navy deploy some Theater Defense Assets to protect Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and anyone else who wants to be protected against a missile strike from North Korea.
Just wanted to set the record straight before the moderator's blade falls.
Aries 1B
"I regret that I may have but this one last post to give to my country."
Comments
Originally posted by pfflam
Which food option are you reffering to?
And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
Taking liberties with my posting order . . . page two
Originally posted by 709
*gasp*
Let the people who would pay actually decide what to do?
What kind of madman are you?
That is what the congress does. Only the body of government closest to the people can declare war. So you have what you want. Right?
Originally posted by pfflam
Which food option are you reffering to?
And how do you inform the American pubic in a climate where official information has, for real reasons, become suspect . . . especially where the outcome of that information may be warfare . . .
i think that 'Talks' need to get very very aggressive and constant: we need to keep knocking on their door, keeping Kim awake at night and constantly badgering them about their political, social and economic goals . . . we need to pick away at their internal structure of horrible mutual-mistrust (general vs general vs Great Leader etc) and power struggles that keep the leadership from acknowledging the greater responsibilities of a civilization.
We also need to start a very tenacious and aggressive psy-ops agianst Kim Il Jung, agaisnt the army, and, the NK people: covert radio brodcasts set to interfear with their propaganda networks and spoonfeed Kim the kind of films and entertainment that would open his eyes
after all this horrible toad of a spider watches alot of Western entertainment and is actually not nearly as isolated as you might think . . . he even surfs the web (hear that hackers with a conscience? get creative and find Kim's address!)
If we can somehow get to one of the high ranking generals I think something might work . . . open his eyes . . . make him see his responsibility
I was talking about Bungie's food sugestion. If there are any options besides war we should look into those first. War with N. Korea would be the worst conflict we've had in the 50 years I've been alive. Much worse than the Korean war of the early 50's because now they can shoot missles at other countries like Japan ( or us ). I live on the west coast. Say they decided to take out Seattle or Portland? Not a pretty thing at all.
As far as official info just present your case to the american public. N Korea would see an attack coming ahead of time anyway. But by all means present real evidence not " Well we can't tell you for security reasons " BS.
Set things up with other countries ahead of time. But by all means don't go it alone.
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Aries 1B
I'd say that an opportunity exists for Germany and for France to redeem themselves. Go get 'em.
Aries 1B
redeem themselves for knowing what our Public is just starting to have revealed to them now?
Unlike Irak it's a major threat, they have tons of WOMD and they will use it for sure.
For the moment we haven't any cure for NK, (or the cure are far worse than anything else). The evil dictator is not immortal, a succession war will happen, and when this time come, opportunities could appear.
and now we know why . . . because it WAS not real data . . . it was not convincing if you knew that it was BAD information.
ANd if their motive is oil then so is Bush's motives . . . in fact it would appear more convincing that that is the case for Bush with his numerous intertwining relations that have him completely entangled with the Oil Business itself . . . so either that is a lame answer ofr it is blame them for what we do . . .
However, back on topic, we CAN do something, at least we can try to do some of what I outlined above; very aggressive dialogue, psy-ops, and, attempt to reach into the Generals' corps to find a sympathetic ear . . . but do this sort of covert stuff pronto and very aggressively with the goal of opening up the eyes of anybody in NK with even the slightest bit of power
I would say one thing, it is not just for the NK people that this would be important but all countries except for mybe Iceland, stand to be directly harmed by NK . . . it is not just 'a problem with others' it is also our problem.
Another thing, the power structure in NK is one of constant struggle and watching one's back . . . it is very fuedal with little fiefdoms and power bases with Kim at the top micro-managing it all through fear and the panoptic bullhorn . . . it keeps them all unstable and focused away from what would ordinarily be the role of government: namely, caring for the people of a region.
Originally posted by pfflam
Saying that France and Germany did not support the war because they are Anti-semitic is idiotic.
Scott actually said this:
No for supporting an anti-semetic dictator in the name of cheap oil for Europe. If France and Germany want to lead the world let them do. If they just want to veto the US then they should step aside
Nowhere in those 39 words does Scott call France and Germany anti-semetic.
As for the rest of your analysis, due to the WMD controversy which your side has been harping upon, and the intelligence (vice White House) failure and problems thereof, I don't think that we should do anything for the moment. To go lunging after NK without suitable intel would be a catastrophe.
Wouldn't it?
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Aries 1B
Scott actually said this:
Nowhere in those 39 words does Scott call France and Germany anti-semetic.
As for the rest of your analysis, due to the WMD controversy which your side has been harping upon, and the intelligence (vice White House) failure and problems thereof, I don't think that we should do anything for the moment. To go lunging after NK without suitable intel would be a catastrophe.
Wouldn't it?
Aries 1B
I agree that lunging would certainly be a catastrophe.
I think that we can put pressure through intense diplomacy: our instigation to have dialogue . . . don't wait for them to talk get knocking on the door . . . get pushing and keep up the talk . . . non-stop and constant
get working behind the scenes
sothing dissolves miserable dictatorships than glimpses of what they are not doing right . . . counter-propaganda
as for Scott's statement (which you counted
Originally posted by Scott
I never said France and Germany were anti-semetic.
But you essentially have said so in the past.
Originally posted by Scott
I never said France and Germany were anti-semetic. I said they supported an anti-semetic dictator.
that's cute
Originally posted by Scott
You're living in the past giant.
That's classic. Wasn't it the Daily Show that was making fun of that line the other day?
Anyway, from a quick search:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...tic#post367655
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...tic#post329717
And back to work...
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Oh, stop.
Okay.
Talking to North Korea is a waste of time. It's time to dredge up the Containment Strategy again.
Yes, there will be terrible consequences for the people of NK, but they are the consequences of the Government and the principles underwhich they live.
Time to deploy some Aegeis Cruisers....
Aries 1B
Originally posted by jimmac
I live on the west coast. Say they decided to take out Seattle or Portland? Not a pretty thing at all.
With the problem we're facing, I'm not against that risk. Powerdoc is right though, that an opportunity might arise that gives us an out. Unfortunately no one knows when that might happen.
Iraq wasn't an emergency by any stretch of the imagination while I consider what's happening in North Korea to be an emergency. I don't like the thought of attacking, but I like the thought of doing not enough even less.
I think any diplomatic solution would have to be from China. If they threaten military action North Korea might listen.
Originally posted by Aries 1B
I'd say that an opportunity exists for Germany and for France to redeem themselves. Go get 'em.
Redeem ourselves? For what? Not believing the chimp's obvious lies and rethorics about Iraq's WoMDs ready to launch in 15min? Or Tony B'Liars "secret service" reports copy-n-pasted from the internet? Or the Uranium hoax? Or that poor sap Powell making a total ass out of himself before the UN? You would not believe how many jokes start with "Powell says..." over here.
Naaa, mate, over here in Ol' Europe we like to think for ourselves, thank's a lot.
North Korea vs. South Korea is a straight product of the imperialist standoff between the USSR, China and the US after WW II - you created the mess, you clear it up.
Originally posted by Aries 1B
Okay.
Talking to North Korea is a waste of time. It's time to dredge up the Containment Strategy again.
Yes, there will be terrible consequences for the people of NK, but they are the consequences of the Government and the principles underwhich they live.
Time to deploy some Aegeis Cruisers....
Aries 1B
All:
The above post prompted a personal response from one of the moderators thus:
Honestly, I have little patience for the sort of post you made. I think you know exactly what my post was about, and you merely exacerbated the petty squabbling with your response.
Consider this a warning. Act so spitefully second time, and you're privileges will be revoked for a period of time.
I thought that the mod didn't want any more discussion on PERCEIVED Anti-Semitism. I agreed and went back ( I thought) on topic to the issue of North Korea and how we should deal with them.
My post states that talking to North Korea is a waste of time. The US tried to bribe NK with food, oil, nuclear reactors and what not so that they would not pursue an atomic weapon program. They agreed and then they violated the agreement. Based upon that, I believe that it is useless to talk to them.
The containment strategy that I referred to is what we did to the Soviet Union. Basically, just contain them and let them collapse from within.
In my second paragraph, I acknowledge that there are going to be terrible, terrible consequences for the people of North Korea, but I didn't, and I still don't, see any realistic way to help those poor people that will not be misdirected into the hands of the criminals running NK.
"Time to deploy some Aegis Cruisers...." herein corrects a spelling error and is a short hand way of suggesting that the US Navy deploy some Theater Defense Assets to protect Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and anyone else who wants to be protected against a missile strike from North Korea.
Just wanted to set the record straight before the moderator's blade falls.
Aries 1B
"I regret that I may have but this one last post to give to my country."