Great feature, very convenient for people who are working in a professional environment and need to strategically replace pages in a document without sitting there and sending multiple single prints through a machine. I wonder if you used commas and similar delimiters in the first field of a page range area if it might work similarly......
Just because some of you guys aren't power users doesn't really justify snotty attitudes about this. Sure, I think that BR acts like a jackass in AppleOutsider, but in this case I'm on his side....yes, a glowing recommendation if ever you heard one~
If expecting good interfaces is snotty, then we're all in good company.
Discontiguous printing is a great idea... but the idea of a single text box and thinking that 'good' is... well, pretty crappy UI. There are plenty of good examples of extensible selection mechanisms in Panther, a couple of which I mentioned. One of those surely has to be better than a blank text box for getting the point across.
Send in a feature request to Apple, suggest a widget like what I described, and see what happens. Sounds like a winner to me.
I think discontiguous ranges are a great idea... but the interface is opaque, nonintuitive, and generally, well, MS.
Instead, perhaps an extensible range idea, where you could have +/- buttons like in the Finder Find window, where you can add criteria, or in Address Book where you can add additional phone numbers, etc. Then, each range could still be the usual two text fields, but it'd be obvious to the newbie what to do.
So your above example would be:
2
3-5
8-10
12
Maybe, but that way you'd be saying:
From: 2 To: 2 (never thought this was very intuitive...does it work fine if you don't put the second 2 in?)
I used this feature at least five times yesterday when printing from QuackXPress. I had a twenty-eight page document that I had output to a postscript file and then passed through Distiller to create a PDF file to send to my printer. Well, a few changes in a few different ads on different pages and some changes on some editorial forced me to have to re-output some pages. There was no way I was going to output the entire twenty-eight page document to a postscript file so I could re-distill the entire thing again. Output just the pages I needed and distilled them again, then replaced just the pages I needed to have replaced in the PDF file. Quick and easy thanks to being able to output discontiguous ranges of pages.
I used this feature at least five times yesterday when printing from QuackXPress. I had a twenty-eight page document that I had output to a postscript file and then passed through Distiller to create a PDF file to send to my printer. Well, a few changes in a few different ads on different pages and some changes on some editorial forced me to have to re-output some pages. There was no way I was going to output the entire twenty-eight page document to a postscript file so I could re-distill the entire thing again. Output just the pages I needed and distilled them again, then replaced just the pages I needed to have replaced in the PDF file. Quick and easy thanks to being able to output discontiguous ranges of pages.
This would seem to make no sense if you are not going to then combine and edit your two PDF files to a single corrected one. That being the case, then what you are doing is off-loading a relatively simple job from the computer to a much more complex one for the user. You are using a feature to actually decrease your productivity.
Well, this feature is still a good thing to add, because sometimes, people want the flexibility to say "I want pages 1 and 2, as well as 5 and 6", instead of running it through two different print jobs.
Even if some people wouldn't use it I'm sure it would make at least one person happier.
In any case...I think it would be a good feature but MS certainly hasn't done it "the right way" like you said.
A friendlier way than adding slashes, commas or dashes inside a text field would be to have new sets of fields appear once a "from" and "to" field is filled.
The MS way is just un-user-friendly.
Actually, I think MS's way is better. If you need to print say 10 or more different pages or ranges then the print dialogue would become overly cumbersome as it stretches downwards for each new "from/to" field. The MS way allows your request to stretch horizontally which takes up hardly any screen real estate.
If you're working on a document of some 400 pages, this ain't a 'feature' but a necessity. Hell, if you're working on any document of any length at all you're going to want to print single pages and you're going to want to do it from a single dialogue box.
I'm not the biggest fan of Word but it's the only word processing app that does the things I need a word processing app to do.
It's a poor feature no matter how you guys slice it...a better feature would be to mark the pages for printing via a GUI or whatever.
Inputting 5+ ranges or a bunch of individual pages in a small text field that probably can't show everything that's been typed is bound to cause problems. Not only that, how can you remember 5+ ranges without going back and looking at the document?
Actually, I think MS's way is better. If you need to print say 10 or more different pages or ranges then the print dialogue would become overly cumbersome as it stretches downwards for each new "from/to" field. The MS way allows your request to stretch horizontally which takes up hardly any screen real estate.
A good GUI will *always* take up more "real screen estate". If you want to save up screen estate, use a CLI and type something like "--pages=1-5,8-11,23-57,89-112". If you want convenience, you'd go for an implementation as suggested by Kickaha.
As someone pointed out, though, even that isn't truly intuitive. Who in their right mind would remember what is on pages 212, 172 and 89a? Instead, the "add range" button should preview the pages in question, of course.
Let's think about the use of this. If I've already printed the document, it's been proof read, and the incorrect pages are marked then what's the best way to print each page individually?
You already know which pages need to be fixed and reprinted. You just need to make the corrections and select said page.
An elegant way to accomplish this would be to make the correction and select say a contextual menu item to reprint the page under the cursor. Or you could make all the corrections and then type the page numbers into the print dialogue box. If you're doing the latter, you already know which pages you need to reprint. So typing them in a single box is the simplest way to enter the page numbers. In my opinion, generating additional "from - to" fields is a complete waste of time.
Let's say I want to enter the following pages/ranges:
1, 4, 6, 10-15, 43, 58-62
The MS way I just type the above.
If we were to create additional "from - to" fields, then I would have to do the following:
type 1 -> move hand to mouse -> click on "+" GUI element -> click on field -> type 4 -> move hand to mouse -> click on "+" GUI element -> click on field -> etc.
It's cumbersome because it forces me to either switch between multiple input devices or (say we were to create a shortcut/keystroke for creating a new field) utilize extra keystrokes. A simple comma eliminates all of that hassle.
Here is two real world reasons why the Word feature is a must for me.
Work: at least ten times a day I have to print an itemised bill for a customer at a network printer I have no access to (someone else will put it in a envelope). More often than not (s)he will only need a part of that bill and sometimes they are not allowed to see other parts of that document.
Home: I have several cooking books on my computer. If I want to make a collection of recipies for someone but don´t want to print the entire set I go to the index, write the nessesary pages and print it in one go.
Both examples show the nessesaty for the Word approach. Several from/to boxes will only deliver half the elegance of good GUI interfaces and even ten box sets would be a limit in certaint situations. The syntax nessesary for printing excatly the pages you want only involves a "," and a "-". The benefits of refusing such a small element of CLI are small compared the the flexibility it gives.
To be honest, the default OSX Print dialogue is pretty shitty. I use common features like odd and even only printing every day. To have to go out of my way to another window, like you would with OSX, seems very un-applelike. I think MS has apple beat on this one. Simple is great if it has the features people use, but this does not.
From a visual design standpoint, perhaps a nice quick, intuitive, GUI way of adding discontiguous pages could be derived from a separate pane showing page thumbnails that were shift- or command-clickable to add them to the range. They way I'm seeing this implemented is that the range field still there for folks who want to manually add "1, 5-8, 9-11", but also a "Add pages to range" button that pops up this pane where you can visually append (note the use of *append*) pages to the range. Select what you want, click OK and its appends the Range string.
Yes this could be tedious for a 400 page document but like someone said you WILL writing down beforehand (or backing out of print dialog if you forgot one) to verify the pages to be included in the discontiguous range anyway. This will just help streamline the process.
I think this would work well with graphic design apps since pages would be more likely to be visually distinct, but would likely fail in a word-processing app if pages consisted soley of text.
Perhaps a summary (ala expose) could be added that is derived from a small block of text on the page that you see when you roll over it? Do you think that'd be enough to enable a visual point-n-click interface for text pages?
I'd love to see Apple implement something like this as a standard.
It's a poor feature no matter how you guys slice it...a better feature would be to mark the pages for printing via a GUI or whatever.
Inputting 5+ ranges or a bunch of individual pages in a small text field that probably can't show everything that's been typed is bound to cause problems. Not only that, how can you remember 5+ ranges without going back and looking at the document?
Why in the hell do I want to scroll through a big ass document and have to mark a page for printing when I can just type it in in a simple dialog? That is the most time consuming ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
It also isn't my fault that you can't remember more than 5 ranges. Of course, if someone calls you and tells you they are missing or need extra copies of the following pages and you write them down as you talk to them on the phone, you wouldn't have to memorize each range.
Bottom Line: If I have the ranges I want a simple quick way to input them. I don't want extra GUI when extra GUI isn't needed.
Comments
Originally posted by drewprops
Great feature, very convenient for people who are working in a professional environment and need to strategically replace pages in a document without sitting there and sending multiple single prints through a machine. I wonder if you used commas and similar delimiters in the first field of a page range area if it might work similarly......
Just because some of you guys aren't power users doesn't really justify snotty attitudes about this. Sure, I think that BR acts like a jackass in AppleOutsider, but in this case I'm on his side....yes, a glowing recommendation if ever you heard one~
If expecting good interfaces is snotty, then we're all in good company.
Discontiguous printing is a great idea... but the idea of a single text box and thinking that 'good' is... well, pretty crappy UI. There are plenty of good examples of extensible selection mechanisms in Panther, a couple of which I mentioned. One of those surely has to be better than a blank text box for getting the point across.
Send in a feature request to Apple, suggest a widget like what I described, and see what happens. Sounds like a winner to me.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I think discontiguous ranges are a great idea... but the interface is opaque, nonintuitive, and generally, well, MS.
Instead, perhaps an extensible range idea, where you could have +/- buttons like in the Finder Find window, where you can add criteria, or in Address Book where you can add additional phone numbers, etc. Then, each range could still be the usual two text fields, but it'd be obvious to the newbie what to do.
So your above example would be:
2
3-5
8-10
12
Maybe, but that way you'd be saying:
From: 2 To: 2 (never thought this was very intuitive...does it work fine if you don't put the second 2 in?)
From: 3 To: 5
....
Otherwise I think that may be a good idea.
Originally posted by ast3r3x
Maybe, but that way you'd be saying:
From: 2 To: 2 (never thought this was very intuitive...does it work fine if you don't put the second 2 in?)
Hey, we're making it up... sure.
Seriously, that's how I'd do it, leave it blank or make it the same number, user option, but either would do the same thing... print one page.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Hey, we're making it up... sure.
Seriously, that's how I'd do it, leave it blank or make it the same number, user option, but either would do the same thing... print one page.
There we've solved everyones problem. Now only if this existed
Originally posted by fahlman
I used this feature at least five times yesterday when printing from QuackXPress. I had a twenty-eight page document that I had output to a postscript file and then passed through Distiller to create a PDF file to send to my printer. Well, a few changes in a few different ads on different pages and some changes on some editorial forced me to have to re-output some pages. There was no way I was going to output the entire twenty-eight page document to a postscript file so I could re-distill the entire thing again. Output just the pages I needed and distilled them again, then replaced just the pages I needed to have replaced in the PDF file. Quick and easy thanks to being able to output discontiguous ranges of pages.
This would seem to make no sense if you are not going to then combine and edit your two PDF files to a single corrected one. That being the case, then what you are doing is off-loading a relatively simple job from the computer to a much more complex one for the user. You are using a feature to actually decrease your productivity.
Even if some people wouldn't use it I'm sure it would make at least one person happier.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
In any case...I think it would be a good feature but MS certainly hasn't done it "the right way" like you said.
A friendlier way than adding slashes, commas or dashes inside a text field would be to have new sets of fields appear once a "from" and "to" field is filled.
The MS way is just un-user-friendly.
Actually, I think MS's way is better. If you need to print say 10 or more different pages or ranges then the print dialogue would become overly cumbersome as it stretches downwards for each new "from/to" field. The MS way allows your request to stretch horizontally which takes up hardly any screen real estate.
I'm not the biggest fan of Word but it's the only word processing app that does the things I need a word processing app to do.
Inputting 5+ ranges or a bunch of individual pages in a small text field that probably can't show everything that's been typed is bound to cause problems. Not only that, how can you remember 5+ ranges without going back and looking at the document?
Originally posted by Arty50
Actually, I think MS's way is better. If you need to print say 10 or more different pages or ranges then the print dialogue would become overly cumbersome as it stretches downwards for each new "from/to" field. The MS way allows your request to stretch horizontally which takes up hardly any screen real estate.
A good GUI will *always* take up more "real screen estate". If you want to save up screen estate, use a CLI and type something like "--pages=1-5,8-11,23-57,89-112". If you want convenience, you'd go for an implementation as suggested by Kickaha.
As someone pointed out, though, even that isn't truly intuitive. Who in their right mind would remember what is on pages 212, 172 and 89a? Instead, the "add range" button should preview the pages in question, of course.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I'm not the biggest fan of Word but it's the only word processing app that does the things I need a word processing app to do.
Then you've never looked at InDesign :P
You already know which pages need to be fixed and reprinted. You just need to make the corrections and select said page.
An elegant way to accomplish this would be to make the correction and select say a contextual menu item to reprint the page under the cursor. Or you could make all the corrections and then type the page numbers into the print dialogue box. If you're doing the latter, you already know which pages you need to reprint. So typing them in a single box is the simplest way to enter the page numbers. In my opinion, generating additional "from - to" fields is a complete waste of time.
Let's say I want to enter the following pages/ranges:
1, 4, 6, 10-15, 43, 58-62
The MS way I just type the above.
If we were to create additional "from - to" fields, then I would have to do the following:
type 1 -> move hand to mouse -> click on "+" GUI element -> click on field -> type 4 -> move hand to mouse -> click on "+" GUI element -> click on field -> etc.
It's cumbersome because it forces me to either switch between multiple input devices or (say we were to create a shortcut/keystroke for creating a new field) utilize extra keystrokes. A simple comma eliminates all of that hassle.
Work: at least ten times a day I have to print an itemised bill for a customer at a network printer I have no access to (someone else will put it in a envelope). More often than not (s)he will only need a part of that bill and sometimes they are not allowed to see other parts of that document.
Home: I have several cooking books on my computer. If I want to make a collection of recipies for someone but don´t want to print the entire set I go to the index, write the nessesary pages and print it in one go.
Both examples show the nessesaty for the Word approach. Several from/to boxes will only deliver half the elegance of good GUI interfaces and even ten box sets would be a limit in certaint situations. The syntax nessesary for printing excatly the pages you want only involves a "," and a "-". The benefits of refusing such a small element of CLI are small compared the the flexibility it gives.
Yes this could be tedious for a 400 page document but like someone said you WILL writing down beforehand (or backing out of print dialog if you forgot one) to verify the pages to be included in the discontiguous range anyway. This will just help streamline the process.
I think this would work well with graphic design apps since pages would be more likely to be visually distinct, but would likely fail in a word-processing app if pages consisted soley of text.
Perhaps a summary (ala expose) could be added that is derived from a small block of text on the page that you see when you roll over it? Do you think that'd be enough to enable a visual point-n-click interface for text pages?
I'd love to see Apple implement something like this as a standard.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
It's a poor feature no matter how you guys slice it...a better feature would be to mark the pages for printing via a GUI or whatever.
Inputting 5+ ranges or a bunch of individual pages in a small text field that probably can't show everything that's been typed is bound to cause problems. Not only that, how can you remember 5+ ranges without going back and looking at the document?
Why in the hell do I want to scroll through a big ass document and have to mark a page for printing when I can just type it in in a simple dialog? That is the most time consuming ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
It also isn't my fault that you can't remember more than 5 ranges. Of course, if someone calls you and tells you they are missing or need extra copies of the following pages and you write them down as you talk to them on the phone, you wouldn't have to memorize each range.
Bottom Line: If I have the ranges I want a simple quick way to input them. I don't want extra GUI when extra GUI isn't needed.