Do you honestly believe that Israel is entirely without fault in the history of events that have led to the current situation?
I would like to add that your choice of language when discussing the people of Palestine is deeply troubling.
Please, let's call evil for what it is and stop pussyfooting around it. Arafat is a murdering terrorist who hates you and everyone here just because we were born or happen to live in america. I am sick of everyone worrying about hurting some poor terrorist's feelings.
There are many palestinians that are good, but there are many there that just wish to spread death and destruction.
Quit trying to understand those killers. Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up. Do you think Arafat really cares about you or anyone but himself? What is his enormous net worth up to now?
And no, Israel is not blameless, nor are any of us. Israel is and has been being attacked by terrorists long before 9/11. Should we ask that they react any differently than the US did?
A state has gone to the country next door and stolen its citizens' money.
This is not OK simply because the state next door is weaker, populated by Arabs, or has a problem with terrorism.
It was done without judicial process, regardless of the guilt or the innocence of the people who deposited the money and regardless of the effect that this action might have on their lives.
It's like England marching into Dublin to ransack the Bank of Eire at the height of the Troubles because it was sick of American and Libyan money being used to fund terrorists.
Please, let's call evil for what it is and stop pussyfooting around it. Arafat is a murdering terrorist who hates you and everyone here just because we were born or happen to live in america.
If you want to broaden the debate like this then fine: the actions of Israel are evil. Sharon is a war criminal and the Israeli government values Jewish life more than Arab life as a point of principle.
OK? This kind of talk's really going to help us find solutions.
Quit trying to understand those killers. Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up.
Let's put things in perspective. The Israeli government is in the position to make a decision to stop hostilities once and for all. The other side is not, because there is no "Palestinian Defense Force" making the attacks - it's just people who are so fed up with the situation, they do not mind killing themselves in the process. The fact that there are organizations like Hamas' military wing that help them do it, does not matter. The Palestinian government cannot shut down the organizations, because they have the support of the people as long as there is enough hardship to go around.
Last I checked, about 200 Israelis / year died in Palestinian suicide attacks.
About 500 Palestinians / year died in IDF operations.
Neither side, with millions of people, are not in danger of extinction, like the hardline propaganda from both sides would have you believe. Traffic in Israel kills many times as much people as bombs.
If the Israelis made a unilateral decision to stop the operations in Palestinian territory TODAY, defend their own land instead, and move the wall where it should have been put in the beginning.. I doubt they would take any more casualties than they do now. Let's say that goes on for five years, and a thousand Israelis die as before, but less Palestinians than before - say, "only" a thousand, the ones that are genuine aggressors and come on Israeli territory.
After five years of total peace on the Palestinian side of the border, would there be enough of a reason for anybody to strap on a bomb? I doubt it.
In fact I think after five years the hardliner Palestinians would be so unpopular they could no longer operate without being exposed and jailed by the Palestinian security forces.
You seem to be saying understanding is the same as acceptance. That's fanatic talk. You need to understand a lot of people to solve this problem, whether you like them or not.
You guys are funny. These terrorists have stated they will not stop the bombings until Israel is extinct. This is what they have stated publicly. What do you suppose they preach privately? Israel is at war with terrorism. Plain and simple. You want Israel to just sit there and let those crazed zealots kill innocent people for five years. Are you nuts.
As far as you thinking it is just random people, your wrong. It is terrorist organizations backed by the palestinian government and others like the former Iraqi government. The palestinian government is run by thugs and terrorists.
Step back and look at what is happening there. The palestinian groups are waging war on the Israeli general population. They enter coffee houses and pizza joints and city busses and kill innocent people just working and doing everyday activities. Do they target military installations and outposts or soldiers? Not for the most part. These are acts that no government can ignore, because it's people will demand action to be safe.
This has been an ongoing war for them for decades now. Honestly I don't see it stopping until Arafat is gone.
I don't get this. Israel commits an act, legal or not, that result in no deaths or injuries, in order to try and stem terrorism and it gets condemned.
You do realize that the Israelis have also killed innocent Palestinian civilians on occasion?
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Please, let's call evil for what it is...Quit trying to understand those killers.
Calling something evil provides an easy excuse to avoid at least attempting to understand it.
I try to avoid calling activities that I do not understand 'evil' for the same reason that I try to avoid calling natural phenomenon that I do not understand 'magic.'
Quote:
Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up.
I expect that many Palestinian terrorists do have an understanding of how their victims and victims' families feel. What do you think makes these people angry enough to strap on bombs in the first place?
(clue: the same thing that makes a uniformed soldier shoot an unarmed child)
......
Kind of an aside...is anyone aware of any instances in history where terrorism with a large grassroots support has been successfully suppressed through police / military action?
You guys are funny. These terrorists have stated they will not stop the bombings until Israel is extinct. This is what they have stated publicly. What do you suppose they preach privately? Israel is at war with terrorism. Plain and simple. You want Israel to just sit there and let those crazed zealots kill innocent people for five years. Are you nuts.
I take it you haven't lived in Israel. I have, for four years. And I'd like to hear what you'd propose as a solution to the problem after ousting Arafat.
The point is, Arafat is valuable. He has wide support of the people. Who can replace him? Palestinians need an accepted authority to develop a system that is capable and willing to stop further terrorism. This can happen only with unilateral Israeli action that shows Israel is serious and gives credibility to the Palestinian authority.
It's written by four columnists at a time, one Israeli, one Arab and two guest writers. Very frank stuff. If I recall correctly, there was an Israeli guest writer at some point who was a retired high ranking IDF officer.
I take it you haven't lived in Israel. I have, for four years. And I'd like to hear what you'd propose as a solution to the problem after ousting Arafat.
The point is, Arafat is valuable. He has wide support of the people. Who can replace him? Palestinians need an accepted authority to develop a system that is capable and willing to stop further terrorism. This can happen only with unilateral Israeli action that shows Israel is serious and gives credibility to the Palestinian authority.
It's written by four columnists at a time, one Israeli, one Arab and two guest writers. Very frank stuff. If I recall correctly, there was an Israeli guest writer at some point who was a retired high ranking IDF officer.
Your right, I have never lived there. Are you saying that I as a responsible adult human being I cannot comment on this situation because of that fact. I will read the article that you posted, however I do not need someone else's input to decipher right and wrong.
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
I am sick of everyone saying that the palestinians have no choice because they have no army. International rules of engagement would apply and then they could not attack civilians. They could easily form an army, if they wanted to. They have armies of terrorists and thugs that intimidate their own people and pay people to kill. This is a loophole they use so they can get some support from easily persuaded people.
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
I wonder also how it is that when Arafat 'inflames anger' largely through his inaction, when Israel robs banks, drops 10-tonne bombs on apartment blocks, runs over American civilians with bulldozers and allows pregnant women to die in their ambulances waiting to get to hospital, it isn't 'inflaming anger' at all.
International rules of engagement would apply and then they could not attack civilians. They could easily form an army, if they wanted to.
I think Palestine should buck itself up and get its space programme together. If Arafat could congratulate the first man on Mars - a Palestinian astronaught, imagine that! - what a propoganda coup that would be.
Palestine should definitely do that before it forms its army (with American military aid and logistical assistance from the EU.) Or maybe it should build a bullet train, on a monorail, to connect Gaza and Damascus.
Or maybe it should pay its police force regularly first.
I don't know. I'm not sure. I do know that you are very sweet, NaplesX, and there's not much point in arguing the toss over the Occupied Territories with a man who actually believes that Palestine could form an army 'if it wanted to.'
I think Palestine should buck itself up and get its space programme together. If Arafat could congratulate the first man on Mars - a Palestinian astronaught, imagine that! - what a propoganda coup that would be.
Palestine should definitely do that before it forms its army (with American military aid and logistical assistance from the EU.) Or maybe it should build a bullet train, on a monorail, to connect Gaza and Damascus.
Or maybe it should pay its police force regularly first.
I don't know. I'm not sure. I do know that you are very sweet, NaplesX, and there's not much point in arguing the toss over the Occupied Territories with a man who actually believes that Palestine could form an army 'if it wanted to.'
Then don't argue with me. No-one is forcing your fingers to the keyboard. You will not convince me that Palestinians that strap bombs to themselves and those that support that act, have good reasons or intentions as long as they continue to target innocent people. You and I both know it is wrong. I say evil.
Your right, I have never lived there. Are you saying that I as a responsible adult human being I cannot comment on this situation because of that fact. I will read the article that you posted, however I do not need someone else's input to decipher right and wrong.
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
Hey, it's easy to figure out your personal version of right and wrong and point fingers. But if you want to solve the situation permanently and have peace, you can't afford to point fingers, because you need everybody to agree, terrorist or not. As long as someone is discontent enough, they will put up a fight. That will not change, as much as we may wish. So it's all about how we can make a deal everybody will eventually have to take.
Finger-pointing is exactly as useless than the discussions about Middle East land ownership that people are also fond of. You know, the ones where people try to reason historically, legally, etc. which state or ethnic group should own this and that land.
In practice, there's a man living on that land, and he's lived there for his entire life. If you take that away from him and force him to move, you might as well kill him and be done with it. On the other hand, if you let him live there but say the land belongs to a state, then the guy must get citizenship, or we're in a full-blown apartheid situation.
Then don't argue with me. No-one is forcing your fingers to the keyboard. You will not convince me that Palestinians that strap bombs to themselves and those that support that act, have good reasons or intentions as long as they continue to target innocent people. You and I both know it will not stop.
You're absolutely right. You and I both know that this will not stop.
Where we disagree is that Israeli policy with regard to Palestine is so provocative and humiliating that it may as well be designed to ensure that this doesn't stop.
We disagree, also, that Israel shares the responsibility for the awful situation it's in, and that it's entirely up to Palestine to take action to see the situation resolved.
We also disagree that Palestinians don't deserve what's inflicted on them by Israeli soldiers any more than Israelis deserve what's inflicted on them by Palestinian suicide bombers. You seem to think that the Palestinians deserve it.
You also think that Palestine could have an army if it wanted, so it would appear that your purchase on Middle Eastern politics probably isn't what it could be.
You're absolutely right. You and I both know that this will not stop.
Where we disagree is that Israeli policy with regard to Palestine is so provocative and humiliating that it may as well be designed to ensure that this doesn't stop.
We disagree, also, that Israel shares the responsibility for the awful situation it's in, and that it's entirely up to Palestine to take action to see the situation resolved.
We also disagree that Palestinians don't deserve what's inflicted on them by Israeli soldiers any more than Israelis deserve what's inflicted on them by Palestinian suicide bombers. You seem to think that the Palestinians deserve it.
You also think that Palestine could have an army if it wanted, so it would appear that your purchase on Middle Eastern politics probably isn't what it could be.
The palestinians deserve competent leadership that will allow them to thrive as a people. They deserve a lot of thing as individual people. Until they realize that it is their leadership that is betraying them and keeping them from what they could be, their plight will be the same.
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures. Yet it seems that no-one on the other end recognizes the effort. I only see more demands and more killings by land kamikazes.
Didn't clinton meat with Sharone and Arafat and Israel gave in to the majority of demands and yet Arafat walked away from the table? That seems to be the pattern I see.
As far as finger pointing goes, It seems that a lot of people continually point the finger at Israel without coming up with any realistic solutions. Israel is being attacked in the worst way and yet they are to back down and let it happen? I am not sure you would react that way if you or you family were systematically being attacked and killed. The Israeli government have a responsibility to do everything in their power to prevent more innocent killings.
The palestinians deserve competent leadership that will allow them to thrive as a people.
I would put it that this is something which the Israelis deserve - and currently lack - as well.
Quote:
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures.
The reality of the situation is the exact opposite. Many of the actions of the current government (the building of the security barrier on the West Bank, voting against 133 other countries on the UN proposed ?Road Map to Peace?) almost seem designed to perpetuate the hatred.
The situation in Israel / Palestine is not as simple ?Israel is just defending itself.? Right and wrong has been perpetrated by both sides. Neither side does what it does without feeling that it has just cause and the actions, even the worst ones, should not be dismissed as ?evil? merely because the history and the motivations are complicated.
(For the record, I do feel that certain acts can sometimes only be described as evil. There are things that human beings have done to one another that defy explanation even after years of scrutiny...the point I was trying to make above is that the term is far to often applied to things that people have only a partial understanding of.)
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures. Yet it seems that no-one on the other end recognizes the effort. I only see more demands and more killings by land kamikazes.
Didn't clinton meat with Sharone and Arafat and Israel gave in to the majority of demands and yet Arafat walked away from the table? That seems to be the pattern I see.
I went to Google and searched for "clinton sharon arafat". Fifth link.
Would it be too much trouble for you to check the facts? It was Sharon who walked out of the table. Arafat accepted the whole deal. But the Israeli government does not want peace, and the US backs them all the way.
Quote:
As far as finger pointing goes, It seems that a lot of people continually point the finger at Israel without coming up with any realistic solutions. Israel is being attacked in the worst way and yet they are to back down and let it happen? I am not sure you would react that way if you or you family were systematically being attacked and killed. The Israeli government have a responsibility to do everything in their power to prevent more innocent killings.
I didn't say Israel should bend over and take it. I said they should stick to defending their own soil instead of exacting revenge. (How do you think bulldozing houses, harassing the Palestinian authority, etc. help against the terrorists? Answer is they don't.) Once in a while they do something halfway useful, namely assassinating a Hamas leader, but even then they should capture and arrest the criminals instead of hitting them. And it does absolutely no good to kill the Hamas guys if there are tens of bodies worth of collateral damage. Guess how many of the relatives of innocent killed people turn into terrorists?
The *systematical* party here is the IDF. Though it's not their fault; they're under orders of the government.
You do realize that the Israelis have also killed innocent Palestinian civilians on occasion?
Indeed I do. But, as I thought was obvious from my post, in this case, Israel commits an act, legal or not, that results in no deaths of Paleatinians in order to stem the flow of money to groups killing their civilians, and it is the cause of the day for critisizing Israel, even to the point of morally comparing the raid on the banks to the actions of the suicide bombers. That is ridiculous. Again, had the event of the day been a another suicide bomb that killed a bunch of Jews, it would have passed without comment on these boards, perhaps because the money of the Palestinians is held here in higher regard than the lives of a few jews.
Indeed I do. But, as I thought was obvious from my post, in this case, Israel commits an act, legal or not, that results in no deaths of Paleatinians in order to stem the flow of money to groups killing their civilians, and it is the cause of the day for critisizing Israel, even to the point of morally comparing the raid on the banks to the actions of the suicide bombers.
Comments
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Do you honestly believe that Israel is entirely without fault in the history of events that have led to the current situation?
I would like to add that your choice of language when discussing the people of Palestine is deeply troubling.
Please, let's call evil for what it is and stop pussyfooting around it. Arafat is a murdering terrorist who hates you and everyone here just because we were born or happen to live in america. I am sick of everyone worrying about hurting some poor terrorist's feelings.
There are many palestinians that are good, but there are many there that just wish to spread death and destruction.
Quit trying to understand those killers. Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up. Do you think Arafat really cares about you or anyone but himself? What is his enormous net worth up to now?
And no, Israel is not blameless, nor are any of us. Israel is and has been being attacked by terrorists long before 9/11. Should we ask that they react any differently than the US did?
This is not OK simply because the state next door is weaker, populated by Arabs, or has a problem with terrorism.
It was done without judicial process, regardless of the guilt or the innocence of the people who deposited the money and regardless of the effect that this action might have on their lives.
It's like England marching into Dublin to ransack the Bank of Eire at the height of the Troubles because it was sick of American and Libyan money being used to fund terrorists.
It's indefensible.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Please, let's call evil for what it is and stop pussyfooting around it. Arafat is a murdering terrorist who hates you and everyone here just because we were born or happen to live in america.
If you want to broaden the debate like this then fine: the actions of Israel are evil. Sharon is a war criminal and the Israeli government values Jewish life more than Arab life as a point of principle.
OK? This kind of talk's really going to help us find solutions.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Quit trying to understand those killers. Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up.
Let's put things in perspective. The Israeli government is in the position to make a decision to stop hostilities once and for all. The other side is not, because there is no "Palestinian Defense Force" making the attacks - it's just people who are so fed up with the situation, they do not mind killing themselves in the process. The fact that there are organizations like Hamas' military wing that help them do it, does not matter. The Palestinian government cannot shut down the organizations, because they have the support of the people as long as there is enough hardship to go around.
Last I checked, about 200 Israelis / year died in Palestinian suicide attacks.
About 500 Palestinians / year died in IDF operations.
Neither side, with millions of people, are not in danger of extinction, like the hardline propaganda from both sides would have you believe. Traffic in Israel kills many times as much people as bombs.
If the Israelis made a unilateral decision to stop the operations in Palestinian territory TODAY, defend their own land instead, and move the wall where it should have been put in the beginning.. I doubt they would take any more casualties than they do now. Let's say that goes on for five years, and a thousand Israelis die as before, but less Palestinians than before - say, "only" a thousand, the ones that are genuine aggressors and come on Israeli territory.
After five years of total peace on the Palestinian side of the border, would there be enough of a reason for anybody to strap on a bomb? I doubt it.
In fact I think after five years the hardliner Palestinians would be so unpopular they could no longer operate without being exposed and jailed by the Palestinian security forces.
You seem to be saying understanding is the same as acceptance. That's fanatic talk. You need to understand a lot of people to solve this problem, whether you like them or not.
As far as you thinking it is just random people, your wrong. It is terrorist organizations backed by the palestinian government and others like the former Iraqi government. The palestinian government is run by thugs and terrorists.
Step back and look at what is happening there. The palestinian groups are waging war on the Israeli general population. They enter coffee houses and pizza joints and city busses and kill innocent people just working and doing everyday activities. Do they target military installations and outposts or soldiers? Not for the most part. These are acts that no government can ignore, because it's people will demand action to be safe.
This has been an ongoing war for them for decades now. Honestly I don't see it stopping until Arafat is gone.
Originally posted by Tulkas
I don't get this. Israel commits an act, legal or not, that result in no deaths or injuries, in order to try and stem terrorism and it gets condemned.
You do realize that the Israelis have also killed innocent Palestinian civilians on occasion?
Originally posted by NaplesX
Please, let's call evil for what it is...Quit trying to understand those killers.
Calling something evil provides an easy excuse to avoid at least attempting to understand it.
I try to avoid calling activities that I do not understand 'evil' for the same reason that I try to avoid calling natural phenomenon that I do not understand 'magic.'
Do you think they try to understand how the maimed and widowed and orphaned souls they attempt to blow up.
I expect that many Palestinian terrorists do have an understanding of how their victims and victims' families feel. What do you think makes these people angry enough to strap on bombs in the first place?
(clue: the same thing that makes a uniformed soldier shoot an unarmed child)
......
Kind of an aside...is anyone aware of any instances in history where terrorism with a large grassroots support has been successfully suppressed through police / military action?
Originally posted by NaplesX
You guys are funny. These terrorists have stated they will not stop the bombings until Israel is extinct. This is what they have stated publicly. What do you suppose they preach privately? Israel is at war with terrorism. Plain and simple. You want Israel to just sit there and let those crazed zealots kill innocent people for five years. Are you nuts.
I take it you haven't lived in Israel. I have, for four years. And I'd like to hear what you'd propose as a solution to the problem after ousting Arafat.
The point is, Arafat is valuable. He has wide support of the people. Who can replace him? Palestinians need an accepted authority to develop a system that is capable and willing to stop further terrorism. This can happen only with unilateral Israeli action that shows Israel is serious and gives credibility to the Palestinian authority.
Do a bit of reading at http://www.bitterlemons.org .
It's written by four columnists at a time, one Israeli, one Arab and two guest writers. Very frank stuff. If I recall correctly, there was an Israeli guest writer at some point who was a retired high ranking IDF officer.
Originally posted by Gon
I take it you haven't lived in Israel. I have, for four years. And I'd like to hear what you'd propose as a solution to the problem after ousting Arafat.
The point is, Arafat is valuable. He has wide support of the people. Who can replace him? Palestinians need an accepted authority to develop a system that is capable and willing to stop further terrorism. This can happen only with unilateral Israeli action that shows Israel is serious and gives credibility to the Palestinian authority.
Do a bit of reading at http://www.bitterlemons.org .
It's written by four columnists at a time, one Israeli, one Arab and two guest writers. Very frank stuff. If I recall correctly, there was an Israeli guest writer at some point who was a retired high ranking IDF officer.
Your right, I have never lived there. Are you saying that I as a responsible adult human being I cannot comment on this situation because of that fact. I will read the article that you posted, however I do not need someone else's input to decipher right and wrong.
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
I am sick of everyone saying that the palestinians have no choice because they have no army. International rules of engagement would apply and then they could not attack civilians. They could easily form an army, if they wanted to. They have armies of terrorists and thugs that intimidate their own people and pay people to kill. This is a loophole they use so they can get some support from easily persuaded people.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
Please supply some of these quotes. You have the whole of the internet to help you.
Because I seem to remember Yasser Arafat condemning every single suicide bomb explicitly. Like this. And this. And this. And this.
I wonder also how it is that when Arafat 'inflames anger' largely through his inaction, when Israel robs banks, drops 10-tonne bombs on apartment blocks, runs over American civilians with bulldozers and allows pregnant women to die in their ambulances waiting to get to hospital, it isn't 'inflaming anger' at all.
Originally posted by NaplesX
International rules of engagement would apply and then they could not attack civilians. They could easily form an army, if they wanted to.
I think Palestine should buck itself up and get its space programme together. If Arafat could congratulate the first man on Mars - a Palestinian astronaught, imagine that! - what a propoganda coup that would be.
Palestine should definitely do that before it forms its army (with American military aid and logistical assistance from the EU.) Or maybe it should build a bullet train, on a monorail, to connect Gaza and Damascus.
Or maybe it should pay its police force regularly first.
I don't know. I'm not sure. I do know that you are very sweet, NaplesX, and there's not much point in arguing the toss over the Occupied Territories with a man who actually believes that Palestine could form an army 'if it wanted to.'
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I think Palestine should buck itself up and get its space programme together. If Arafat could congratulate the first man on Mars - a Palestinian astronaught, imagine that! - what a propoganda coup that would be.
Palestine should definitely do that before it forms its army (with American military aid and logistical assistance from the EU.) Or maybe it should build a bullet train, on a monorail, to connect Gaza and Damascus.
Or maybe it should pay its police force regularly first.
I don't know. I'm not sure. I do know that you are very sweet, NaplesX, and there's not much point in arguing the toss over the Occupied Territories with a man who actually believes that Palestine could form an army 'if it wanted to.'
Then don't argue with me. No-one is forcing your fingers to the keyboard. You will not convince me that Palestinians that strap bombs to themselves and those that support that act, have good reasons or intentions as long as they continue to target innocent people. You and I both know it is wrong. I say evil.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Your right, I have never lived there. Are you saying that I as a responsible adult human being I cannot comment on this situation because of that fact. I will read the article that you posted, however I do not need someone else's input to decipher right and wrong.
Every quote I hear from Arafat and his cabinet shows me that they do not value life, especially that of any Israeli. They blame Israel for any and all problems. A good leader can bring together his people for change for the good. Arafat is not doing this. He is just inflaming existing anger.
Hey, it's easy to figure out your personal version of right and wrong and point fingers. But if you want to solve the situation permanently and have peace, you can't afford to point fingers, because you need everybody to agree, terrorist or not. As long as someone is discontent enough, they will put up a fight. That will not change, as much as we may wish. So it's all about how we can make a deal everybody will eventually have to take.
Finger-pointing is exactly as useless than the discussions about Middle East land ownership that people are also fond of. You know, the ones where people try to reason historically, legally, etc. which state or ethnic group should own this and that land.
In practice, there's a man living on that land, and he's lived there for his entire life. If you take that away from him and force him to move, you might as well kill him and be done with it. On the other hand, if you let him live there but say the land belongs to a state, then the guy must get citizenship, or we're in a full-blown apartheid situation.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Then don't argue with me. No-one is forcing your fingers to the keyboard. You will not convince me that Palestinians that strap bombs to themselves and those that support that act, have good reasons or intentions as long as they continue to target innocent people. You and I both know it will not stop.
You're absolutely right. You and I both know that this will not stop.
Where we disagree is that Israeli policy with regard to Palestine is so provocative and humiliating that it may as well be designed to ensure that this doesn't stop.
We disagree, also, that Israel shares the responsibility for the awful situation it's in, and that it's entirely up to Palestine to take action to see the situation resolved.
We also disagree that Palestinians don't deserve what's inflicted on them by Israeli soldiers any more than Israelis deserve what's inflicted on them by Palestinian suicide bombers. You seem to think that the Palestinians deserve it.
You also think that Palestine could have an army if it wanted, so it would appear that your purchase on Middle Eastern politics probably isn't what it could be.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
You're absolutely right. You and I both know that this will not stop.
Where we disagree is that Israeli policy with regard to Palestine is so provocative and humiliating that it may as well be designed to ensure that this doesn't stop.
We disagree, also, that Israel shares the responsibility for the awful situation it's in, and that it's entirely up to Palestine to take action to see the situation resolved.
We also disagree that Palestinians don't deserve what's inflicted on them by Israeli soldiers any more than Israelis deserve what's inflicted on them by Palestinian suicide bombers. You seem to think that the Palestinians deserve it.
You also think that Palestine could have an army if it wanted, so it would appear that your purchase on Middle Eastern politics probably isn't what it could be.
The palestinians deserve competent leadership that will allow them to thrive as a people. They deserve a lot of thing as individual people. Until they realize that it is their leadership that is betraying them and keeping them from what they could be, their plight will be the same.
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures. Yet it seems that no-one on the other end recognizes the effort. I only see more demands and more killings by land kamikazes.
Didn't clinton meat with Sharone and Arafat and Israel gave in to the majority of demands and yet Arafat walked away from the table? That seems to be the pattern I see.
As far as finger pointing goes, It seems that a lot of people continually point the finger at Israel without coming up with any realistic solutions. Israel is being attacked in the worst way and yet they are to back down and let it happen? I am not sure you would react that way if you or you family were systematically being attacked and killed. The Israeli government have a responsibility to do everything in their power to prevent more innocent killings.
Originally posted by NaplesX
The palestinians deserve competent leadership that will allow them to thrive as a people.
I would put it that this is something which the Israelis deserve - and currently lack - as well.
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures.
The reality of the situation is the exact opposite. Many of the actions of the current government (the building of the security barrier on the West Bank, voting against 133 other countries on the UN proposed ?Road Map to Peace?) almost seem designed to perpetuate the hatred.
The situation in Israel / Palestine is not as simple ?Israel is just defending itself.? Right and wrong has been perpetrated by both sides. Neither side does what it does without feeling that it has just cause and the actions, even the worst ones, should not be dismissed as ?evil? merely because the history and the motivations are complicated.
(For the record, I do feel that certain acts can sometimes only be described as evil. There are things that human beings have done to one another that defy explanation even after years of scrutiny...the point I was trying to make above is that the term is far to often applied to things that people have only a partial understanding of.)
Originally posted by NaplesX
Just in the last year Israel seems to have gone out of it's way to try to follow some peace making measures. Yet it seems that no-one on the other end recognizes the effort. I only see more demands and more killings by land kamikazes.
Didn't clinton meat with Sharone and Arafat and Israel gave in to the majority of demands and yet Arafat walked away from the table? That seems to be the pattern I see.
I went to Google and searched for "clinton sharon arafat". Fifth link.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...22/wisr222.xml
Would it be too much trouble for you to check the facts? It was Sharon who walked out of the table. Arafat accepted the whole deal. But the Israeli government does not want peace, and the US backs them all the way.
As far as finger pointing goes, It seems that a lot of people continually point the finger at Israel without coming up with any realistic solutions. Israel is being attacked in the worst way and yet they are to back down and let it happen? I am not sure you would react that way if you or you family were systematically being attacked and killed. The Israeli government have a responsibility to do everything in their power to prevent more innocent killings.
I didn't say Israel should bend over and take it. I said they should stick to defending their own soil instead of exacting revenge. (How do you think bulldozing houses, harassing the Palestinian authority, etc. help against the terrorists? Answer is they don't.) Once in a while they do something halfway useful, namely assassinating a Hamas leader, but even then they should capture and arrest the criminals instead of hitting them. And it does absolutely no good to kill the Hamas guys if there are tens of bodies worth of collateral damage. Guess how many of the relatives of innocent killed people turn into terrorists?
The *systematical* party here is the IDF. Though it's not their fault; they're under orders of the government.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
You do realize that the Israelis have also killed innocent Palestinian civilians on occasion?
Indeed I do. But, as I thought was obvious from my post, in this case, Israel commits an act, legal or not, that results in no deaths of Paleatinians in order to stem the flow of money to groups killing their civilians, and it is the cause of the day for critisizing Israel, even to the point of morally comparing the raid on the banks to the actions of the suicide bombers. That is ridiculous. Again, had the event of the day been a another suicide bomb that killed a bunch of Jews, it would have passed without comment on these boards, perhaps because the money of the Palestinians is held here in higher regard than the lives of a few jews.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Indeed I do. But, as I thought was obvious from my post, in this case, Israel commits an act, legal or not, that results in no deaths of Paleatinians in order to stem the flow of money to groups killing their civilians, and it is the cause of the day for critisizing Israel, even to the point of morally comparing the raid on the banks to the actions of the suicide bombers.
Agreed