actually, the cards in the G5's won't physically work in the G4's. the G5's adc power connections on the board are different or something. i forget the exact details, but i read an ATI rep's report about the issue. basically, it's apple's fault for using stupid proprietary interface, which requires higher investment by ATI and nVidia to produce Mac cards (above and beyond the driver/bios issues). and then Apple also changed things around on the G5 boards, throwing yet another wrench in.
On the up side, I highly expect things to get better when apple announces rev b's with pci-x (maybe pci-e?) graphics, and new displays with standard DVI interfaces. we'll see.
Well, if this is indeed corrrect, then Apple certainly is getting dumber as all their efforts todate to use industry-wide standard hardware components has just been set back years.
Re: Radeon 9800
Not everyone wants to spend the $$$ to get the 9800 when they can get the 9600. Remember we are talking about the more expensive Mac versions. Although, if it were at all possible to use the PC version of the 9800 it would be a very appealing deal given all the discounts on the 9800 right now.
Not everyone wants to spend the $$$ to get the 9800 when they can get the 9600. Remember we are talking about the more expensive Mac versions. Although, if it were at all possible to use the PC version of the 9800 it would be a very appealing deal given all the discounts on the 9800 right now.
actually, the cards in the G5's won't physically work in the G4's. the G5's adc power connections on the board are different or something. i forget the exact details, but i read an ATI rep's report about the issue. basically, it's apple's fault for using stupid proprietary interface, which requires higher investment by ATI and nVidia to produce Mac cards (above and beyond the driver/bios issues). and then Apple also changed things around on the G5 boards, throwing yet another wrench in.
On the up side, I highly expect things to get better when apple announces rev b's with pci-x (maybe pci-e?) graphics, and new displays with standard DVI interfaces. we'll see.
That's all FUD.
ADC is Apple's display interface. ATI doesn't have to put that on their aftermarket boards, they could just tell Apple display users to buy a converter -- if their display didn't ship with one. The ADC is DVI with either audio or USB added in (I can't remember which), so a converter is trivial.
The G5 provides an AGP 8x interface, and most of the G4s provide an AGP 4x interface. The 9800 works with both. Some older G4s only have AGP 2x and are therefore unsupported. The same is true in the PC world though so the blame can't be laid at Apple's feet. The aftermarket 9800 I have is usable in both my G4 and in a G5, if I were to have one.
ADC is Apple's display interface. ATI doesn't have to put that on their aftermarket boards, they could just tell Apple display users to buy a converter -- if their display didn't ship with one. The ADC is DVI with either audio or USB added in (I can't remember which), so a converter is trivial.
The G5 provides an AGP 8x interface, and most of the G4s provide an AGP 4x interface. The 9800 works with both. Some older G4s only have AGP 2x and are therefore unsupported. The same is true in the PC world though so the blame can't be laid at Apple's feet. The aftermarket 9800 I have is usable in both my G4 and in a G5, if I were to have one.
i guess i didn't quite make the point clear...
when ATI spends time and money to develop the OEM versions (with the board connections for power and adc) for the G5, those CANNOT physically fit in the G4's. so ATI has to spend more time/money to develop a "retail" version. the retail version is 4x/8x 1.5v (to be compatible with as many machines as possible), but because of the differences on the board between the G5 implementation of power and ADC and the G4 implementation, the "retail" card can't use these connections on the MB. instead, they use an auxilary power connector, and no ADC.
so, could ATI develop a retail 9600Pro? yeah, but Apple is making it tougher than it already is (drivers/BIOS) by changing the board connections, increasing the number of possible configurations that need to be accounted for.
so I'm not saying it has anything to do with whether the card itself uses an ADC output to the monitor, I was refering to the ADC connections on the motherboard.
when ATI spends time and money to develop the OEM versions (with the board connections for power and adc) for the G5, those CANNOT physically fit in the G4's. so ATI has to spend more time/money to develop a "retail" version. the retail version is 4x/8x 1.5v (to be compatible with as many machines as possible), but because of the differences on the board between the G5 implementation of power and ADC and the G4 implementation, the "retail" card can't use these connections on the MB. instead, they use an auxilary power connector, and no ADC.
so, could ATI develop a retail 9600Pro? yeah, but Apple is making it tougher than it already is (drivers/BIOS) by changing the board connections, increasing the number of possible configurations that need to be accounted for.
so I'm not saying it has anything to do with whether the card itself uses an ADC output to the monitor, I was refering to the ADC connections on the motherboard.
The changes required are trivial, and are not the reason that ATI doesn't make as many add-in board variations as they do for the PC market. The reason they don't do that is the 3% market share, and the fact that all Macs come with a decent GPU for their day (not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
ATI doesn't make retail cards for Macs because there are not enough people to buy it!
1. the only people that can even think about getting one are powermac oeners.
2. Of the computers apple sells only 15-20% are powermacs
3. Of those powermac users, maybe a good 5-10% ever want to upgrade the video card....
so let's extrapolate here, Apple sold like 250k powermacs last quarter. So potential customers for any possible video card upgrade is: 12.5-25k per quarter.....and that is assuming you only make 1 card for retail upgrades. Do you make more cards for the B&W g3 owners? How about those w/ 2x agp? only super high end cards? only tv tuner cards?
The market really isn't that big for Ati, even if it doesn't take much work to provide...because the vast majority of Apple users can't or won't upgrade their video cards...so Ati is really looking at a potential market of about 2-5% of actual mac users.
i don't know what you're talking about. or rather, i think you're a little confused. the difference between a 9800 and a 9800Pro is nothing but clock speed.
as for the Fire GL, as I've tried to explain several times, the only thing that makes it "special" is that the firmware and drivers (which are two very different things!) are certified with various packages (such as Maya) to guarantee the highest level of stability. that certification process takes a lot of man-hours, which is a big part of the Fire GL's price. Hardware-wise, the Fire GL is the same as a Radeon. For example, the Fire GL X1 is the same hardware (possibly clocked down a little) as a Radeon 9700. So unless you're working on the next Pixar flick at home (or some other "mission critical" work), you'd be better off just buying a 9800Pro and saving a lot of money. Oh yeah, and the 9800Pro is available for the PowerMac G5!
Now, that said, should the graphics cards options from Apple be cheaper? sure. but so should the RAM, hard drives, etc. And when you add a 6 disc changer to a BMW it should only cost $200, right?
The device ID that is embedded in the GPU itself is different by a single digit also. That's how the driver knows whether you have a GL card or non-GL card. In earlier versions the device ID was deteremined by a resistor on the PCB. People learned that and would by the non-GL card, pop the resistor off, and have a GL card. ATI and nVidia wised up and solved that problem.
There's a difference in terms of performance that the GL has over non-GL in two areas: hardware anti-aliasing lines and hardware something else. The non-GL does those two things in software.
Certifications actually don't take long at all. Can be completed in an hour. The reason is most of the testing is done in the base testing of the driver before the drivers are ever sent to be certified.
The reason these cards cost so much is because ATI and nVidia can charge that much. The pros want the certifications and they want those two additional performance features that you don't get with the non-GL version.
The changes required are trivial, and are not the reason that ATI doesn't make as many add-in board variations as they do for the PC market. The reason they don't do that is the 3% market share, and the fact that all Macs come with a decent GPU for their day (not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
i completely agree. i didn't mean to say that the only thing stoping ati or nvidia was apple being stupid. the market is relatively tiny, and then fractionalized even more by apple.
ATI doesn't make retail cards for Macs because there are not enough people to buy it!
1. the only people that can even think about getting one are powermac oeners.
2. Of the computers apple sells only 15-20% are powermacs
3. Of those powermac users, maybe a good 5-10% ever want to upgrade the video card....
so let's extrapolate here, Apple sold like 250k powermacs last quarter. So potential customers for any possible video card upgrade is: 12.5-25k per quarter.....and that is assuming you only make 1 card for retail upgrades. Do you make more cards for the B&W g3 owners? How about those w/ 2x agp? only super high end cards? only tv tuner cards?
The market really isn't that big for Ati, even if it doesn't take much work to provide...because the vast majority of Apple users can't or won't upgrade their video cards...so Ati is really looking at a potential market of about 2-5% of actual mac users.
Tsk tsk. It sounds as if you're saying that ATi will only sell to about 5% of a 2% market. They would be out of the Mac side by now if that were true!
Remember, in almost every Mac there's and ATi card excluding four makes (The 12" PowerBooks & the 1.6 & 1.8GHz G5's). So those 250k Powermacs have just sold 250k ATi graphics cards, that's just PowerMacs, unless the computers are custom made to have a different graphics card, which only a very small amount are. So adding the other computers with ATi cards in them, that's a lot of cards being sold..
Plus, Virginia Tech bought those 1,100 G5's, all with the ATi cards in them last year.. There's another 1,100 sales..
I think ATi had a reasonably good year last year on the Mac side, 2% market share or not.
Of course they're not going to get as many sales as the PC market, that's blatantly obvious, but they don't expect that they will. They choose to make the cards for the Mac platform knowing full well what the sales will be like. And Apple buys the cards from them so the consumers don't have to. They already have an ATi card in their new computer, so why buy one? The people that upgrade the cards are just generating extra sales for ATi.
....(not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
Tsk tsk. It sounds as if you're saying that ATi will only sell to about 5% of a 2% market. They would be out of the Mac side by now if that were true!
Remember, in almost every Mac there's and ATi card excluding four makes (The 12" PowerBooks & the 1.6 & 1.8GHz G5's). So those 250k Powermacs have just sold 250k ATi graphics cards, that's just PowerMacs, unless the computers are custom made to have a different graphics card, which only a very small amount are. So adding the other computers with ATi cards in them
Jimzip
The market for ATi to make mac OEM video cards is fine...but making replacements for powermacs is useless... Because there is not a market for aftermarket video cards.....Because only 2-5% of MAc users will be able to take out their video card to replace it.
Based on what I have seen from ATi, the agree. The Mac market for retail AGP video cards is really small. Creating the OEM cards for Apple is lucrative, but catering to the upgraders isn't,
Because you are really looking at a total market of about 200k potential sales. And who knows how many models ATi would need to produce, so each card would only sell like 40k. (1 for the B&W, 1 for the pre AGP g4s, 1 for the 2xs AGP g4, 1 for the 4x AGP g4, 1 for the g5.)
My 2-5% is the percentage of actual apple users....not apples market share. So the potential purchasers of retail mac video cards is mor like (pretend apple has an 8% marketshare) Marketshare has nothing to do with it. Now if al macs had upgradeable video cards, or all Mac desktops did, it would make sense to jump in the market.
.16-.4% of All computer users!!!!!! Not worth printing the boxes.
The market for ATi to make mac OEM video cards is fine...but making replacements for powermacs is useless... Because there is not a market for aftermarket video cards.....Because only 2-5% of MAc users will be able to take out their video card to replace it.
But there's no need to call them replacement cards. The same cards that are sold retail are put into the PowerMacs already! That's all I mean.
Oh wait.. What does OEM mean first of all.. I should probably find out before I post anything else..
I see what you're getting at however, and I agree that there's not much incentive for ATi.
But there's no need to call them replacement cards. The same cards that are sold retail are put into the PowerMacs already! That's all I mean.
Oh wait.. What does OEM mean first of all.. I should probably find out before I post anything else..
I see what you're getting at however, and I agree that there's not much incentive for ATi.
Jimzip
OK user upgradeable cards. OEM = original equipment maker. Samsung OEMs apple monitors, pioneer is the OEM for the superdrive in g5s, mashita is the OEM for laptop superdrives and so on.
Comments
Jimzip
Originally posted by concentricity
actually, the cards in the G5's won't physically work in the G4's. the G5's adc power connections on the board are different or something. i forget the exact details, but i read an ATI rep's report about the issue. basically, it's apple's fault for using stupid proprietary interface, which requires higher investment by ATI and nVidia to produce Mac cards (above and beyond the driver/bios issues). and then Apple also changed things around on the G5 boards, throwing yet another wrench in.
On the up side, I highly expect things to get better when apple announces rev b's with pci-x (maybe pci-e?) graphics, and new displays with standard DVI interfaces. we'll see.
Well, if this is indeed corrrect, then Apple certainly is getting dumber as all their efforts todate to use industry-wide standard hardware components has just been set back years.
Re: Radeon 9800
Not everyone wants to spend the $$$ to get the 9800 when they can get the 9600. Remember we are talking about the more expensive Mac versions. Although, if it were at all possible to use the PC version of the 9800 it would be a very appealing deal given all the discounts on the 9800 right now.
Originally posted by DVD_Junkie
Re: Radeon 9800
Not everyone wants to spend the $$$ to get the 9800 when they can get the 9600. Remember we are talking about the more expensive Mac versions. Although, if it were at all possible to use the PC version of the 9800 it would be a very appealing deal given all the discounts on the 9800 right now.
Here is an update on the subject.
Originally posted by PB
Here is an update on the subject.
Nice!
Originally posted by concentricity
actually, the cards in the G5's won't physically work in the G4's. the G5's adc power connections on the board are different or something. i forget the exact details, but i read an ATI rep's report about the issue. basically, it's apple's fault for using stupid proprietary interface, which requires higher investment by ATI and nVidia to produce Mac cards (above and beyond the driver/bios issues). and then Apple also changed things around on the G5 boards, throwing yet another wrench in.
On the up side, I highly expect things to get better when apple announces rev b's with pci-x (maybe pci-e?) graphics, and new displays with standard DVI interfaces. we'll see.
That's all FUD.
ADC is Apple's display interface. ATI doesn't have to put that on their aftermarket boards, they could just tell Apple display users to buy a converter -- if their display didn't ship with one. The ADC is DVI with either audio or USB added in (I can't remember which), so a converter is trivial.
The G5 provides an AGP 8x interface, and most of the G4s provide an AGP 4x interface. The 9800 works with both. Some older G4s only have AGP 2x and are therefore unsupported. The same is true in the PC world though so the blame can't be laid at Apple's feet. The aftermarket 9800 I have is usable in both my G4 and in a G5, if I were to have one.
Originally posted by Programmer
That's all FUD.
ADC is Apple's display interface. ATI doesn't have to put that on their aftermarket boards, they could just tell Apple display users to buy a converter -- if their display didn't ship with one. The ADC is DVI with either audio or USB added in (I can't remember which), so a converter is trivial.
The G5 provides an AGP 8x interface, and most of the G4s provide an AGP 4x interface. The 9800 works with both. Some older G4s only have AGP 2x and are therefore unsupported. The same is true in the PC world though so the blame can't be laid at Apple's feet. The aftermarket 9800 I have is usable in both my G4 and in a G5, if I were to have one.
i guess i didn't quite make the point clear...
when ATI spends time and money to develop the OEM versions (with the board connections for power and adc) for the G5, those CANNOT physically fit in the G4's. so ATI has to spend more time/money to develop a "retail" version. the retail version is 4x/8x 1.5v (to be compatible with as many machines as possible), but because of the differences on the board between the G5 implementation of power and ADC and the G4 implementation, the "retail" card can't use these connections on the MB. instead, they use an auxilary power connector, and no ADC.
so, could ATI develop a retail 9600Pro? yeah, but Apple is making it tougher than it already is (drivers/BIOS) by changing the board connections, increasing the number of possible configurations that need to be accounted for.
so I'm not saying it has anything to do with whether the card itself uses an ADC output to the monitor, I was refering to the ADC connections on the motherboard.
Originally posted by concentricity
i guess i didn't quite make the point clear...
when ATI spends time and money to develop the OEM versions (with the board connections for power and adc) for the G5, those CANNOT physically fit in the G4's. so ATI has to spend more time/money to develop a "retail" version. the retail version is 4x/8x 1.5v (to be compatible with as many machines as possible), but because of the differences on the board between the G5 implementation of power and ADC and the G4 implementation, the "retail" card can't use these connections on the MB. instead, they use an auxilary power connector, and no ADC.
so, could ATI develop a retail 9600Pro? yeah, but Apple is making it tougher than it already is (drivers/BIOS) by changing the board connections, increasing the number of possible configurations that need to be accounted for.
so I'm not saying it has anything to do with whether the card itself uses an ADC output to the monitor, I was refering to the ADC connections on the motherboard.
The changes required are trivial, and are not the reason that ATI doesn't make as many add-in board variations as they do for the PC market. The reason they don't do that is the 3% market share, and the fact that all Macs come with a decent GPU for their day (not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
1. the only people that can even think about getting one are powermac oeners.
2. Of the computers apple sells only 15-20% are powermacs
3. Of those powermac users, maybe a good 5-10% ever want to upgrade the video card....
so let's extrapolate here, Apple sold like 250k powermacs last quarter. So potential customers for any possible video card upgrade is: 12.5-25k per quarter.....and that is assuming you only make 1 card for retail upgrades. Do you make more cards for the B&W g3 owners? How about those w/ 2x agp? only super high end cards? only tv tuner cards?
The market really isn't that big for Ati, even if it doesn't take much work to provide...because the vast majority of Apple users can't or won't upgrade their video cards...so Ati is really looking at a potential market of about 2-5% of actual mac users.
Originally posted by concentricity
i don't know what you're talking about. or rather, i think you're a little confused. the difference between a 9800 and a 9800Pro is nothing but clock speed.
see link
as for the Fire GL, as I've tried to explain several times, the only thing that makes it "special" is that the firmware and drivers (which are two very different things!) are certified with various packages (such as Maya) to guarantee the highest level of stability. that certification process takes a lot of man-hours, which is a big part of the Fire GL's price. Hardware-wise, the Fire GL is the same as a Radeon. For example, the Fire GL X1 is the same hardware (possibly clocked down a little) as a Radeon 9700. So unless you're working on the next Pixar flick at home (or some other "mission critical" work), you'd be better off just buying a 9800Pro and saving a lot of money. Oh yeah, and the 9800Pro is available for the PowerMac G5!
Now, that said, should the graphics cards options from Apple be cheaper? sure. but so should the RAM, hard drives, etc. And when you add a 6 disc changer to a BMW it should only cost $200, right?
The device ID that is embedded in the GPU itself is different by a single digit also. That's how the driver knows whether you have a GL card or non-GL card. In earlier versions the device ID was deteremined by a resistor on the PCB. People learned that and would by the non-GL card, pop the resistor off, and have a GL card. ATI and nVidia wised up and solved that problem.
There's a difference in terms of performance that the GL has over non-GL in two areas: hardware anti-aliasing lines and hardware something else. The non-GL does those two things in software.
Certifications actually don't take long at all. Can be completed in an hour. The reason is most of the testing is done in the base testing of the driver before the drivers are ever sent to be certified.
The reason these cards cost so much is because ATI and nVidia can charge that much. The pros want the certifications and they want those two additional performance features that you don't get with the non-GL version.
Regards!
Originally posted by Programmer
The changes required are trivial, and are not the reason that ATI doesn't make as many add-in board variations as they do for the PC market. The reason they don't do that is the 3% market share, and the fact that all Macs come with a decent GPU for their day (not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
i completely agree. i didn't mean to say that the only thing stoping ati or nvidia was apple being stupid. the market is relatively tiny, and then fractionalized even more by apple.
Originally posted by jade
ATI doesn't make retail cards for Macs because there are not enough people to buy it!
1. the only people that can even think about getting one are powermac oeners.
2. Of the computers apple sells only 15-20% are powermacs
3. Of those powermac users, maybe a good 5-10% ever want to upgrade the video card....
so let's extrapolate here, Apple sold like 250k powermacs last quarter. So potential customers for any possible video card upgrade is: 12.5-25k per quarter.....and that is assuming you only make 1 card for retail upgrades. Do you make more cards for the B&W g3 owners? How about those w/ 2x agp? only super high end cards? only tv tuner cards?
The market really isn't that big for Ati, even if it doesn't take much work to provide...because the vast majority of Apple users can't or won't upgrade their video cards...so Ati is really looking at a potential market of about 2-5% of actual mac users.
Tsk tsk. It sounds as if you're saying that ATi will only sell to about 5% of a 2% market. They would be out of the Mac side by now if that were true!
Remember, in almost every Mac there's and ATi card excluding four makes (The 12" PowerBooks & the 1.6 & 1.8GHz G5's). So those 250k Powermacs have just sold 250k ATi graphics cards, that's just PowerMacs, unless the computers are custom made to have a different graphics card, which only a very small amount are. So adding the other computers with ATi cards in them, that's a lot of cards being sold..
Plus, Virginia Tech bought those 1,100 G5's, all with the ATi cards in them last year.. There's another 1,100 sales..
I think ATi had a reasonably good year last year on the Mac side, 2% market share or not.
Of course they're not going to get as many sales as the PC market, that's blatantly obvious, but they don't expect that they will. They choose to make the cards for the Mac platform knowing full well what the sales will be like. And Apple buys the cards from them so the consumers don't have to. They already have an ATi card in their new computer, so why buy one? The people that upgrade the cards are just generating extra sales for ATi.
Jimzip
Originally posted by Programmer
....(not to mention all the consumer machines can't be upgraded at all). There is so little add-in market for ATI on the Mac that I'm amazed they have any products... be thankful that they deliver for the high-end with the 9800Pro, at least.
Another reason for a headless iMac.
Originally posted by Jimzip
Tsk tsk. It sounds as if you're saying that ATi will only sell to about 5% of a 2% market. They would be out of the Mac side by now if that were true!
Remember, in almost every Mac there's and ATi card excluding four makes (The 12" PowerBooks & the 1.6 & 1.8GHz G5's). So those 250k Powermacs have just sold 250k ATi graphics cards, that's just PowerMacs, unless the computers are custom made to have a different graphics card, which only a very small amount are. So adding the other computers with ATi cards in them
Jimzip
The market for ATi to make mac OEM video cards is fine...but making replacements for powermacs is useless... Because there is not a market for aftermarket video cards.....Because only 2-5% of MAc users will be able to take out their video card to replace it.
Based on what I have seen from ATi, the agree. The Mac market for retail AGP video cards is really small. Creating the OEM cards for Apple is lucrative, but catering to the upgraders isn't,
Because you are really looking at a total market of about 200k potential sales. And who knows how many models ATi would need to produce, so each card would only sell like 40k. (1 for the B&W, 1 for the pre AGP g4s, 1 for the 2xs AGP g4, 1 for the 4x AGP g4, 1 for the g5.)
My 2-5% is the percentage of actual apple users....not apples market share. So the potential purchasers of retail mac video cards is mor like (pretend apple has an 8% marketshare) Marketshare has nothing to do with it. Now if al macs had upgradeable video cards, or all Mac desktops did, it would make sense to jump in the market.
.16-.4% of All computer users!!!!!! Not worth printing the boxes.
Originally posted by jade
The market for ATi to make mac OEM video cards is fine...but making replacements for powermacs is useless... Because there is not a market for aftermarket video cards.....Because only 2-5% of MAc users will be able to take out their video card to replace it.
But there's no need to call them replacement cards. The same cards that are sold retail are put into the PowerMacs already! That's all I mean.
Oh wait.. What does OEM mean first of all.. I should probably find out before I post anything else..
I see what you're getting at however, and I agree that there's not much incentive for ATi.
Jimzip
Originally posted by Jimzip
But there's no need to call them replacement cards. The same cards that are sold retail are put into the PowerMacs already! That's all I mean.
Oh wait.. What does OEM mean first of all.. I should probably find out before I post anything else..
I see what you're getting at however, and I agree that there's not much incentive for ATi.
Jimzip
OK user upgradeable cards. OEM = original equipment maker. Samsung OEMs apple monitors, pioneer is the OEM for the superdrive in g5s, mashita is the OEM for laptop superdrives and so on.