Regression of human-rights of women in Iraq
The situation of women human-rights are getting worse since the end of Saddam era. Women are obliged to wear a veil in the streets, are not allowed to wear a sport suit, haven't the possibilitie to practice sports (because mixity is not allowed and there is no sports clubs for women).
I eard an interview of a christian iraq women : she said that she was told by people in the street to wear weil and to follow the islamic law. (for the record 3 % of Iraqi people are christians). She said that she could not also practice sport. She will dream to live in the occidental way, but the only chance for her is to emigrate.
Today is a sad day, it's the day of the Women, but in Iraq a temporary constitution has been voted mostly based on islamic laws. This will not promote women's freedoom.
I fear that Iraq turn into an Islamist countrie.
I eard an interview of a christian iraq women : she said that she was told by people in the street to wear weil and to follow the islamic law. (for the record 3 % of Iraqi people are christians). She said that she could not also practice sport. She will dream to live in the occidental way, but the only chance for her is to emigrate.
Today is a sad day, it's the day of the Women, but in Iraq a temporary constitution has been voted mostly based on islamic laws. This will not promote women's freedoom.
I fear that Iraq turn into an Islamist countrie.
Comments
I think that this situation is terrible. It may be an unavoidable fact however as we have to negotiate with tribal leaders and religious leaders who are all a bunch of virulent macho idiots that think that a 'good woman' is an invisible woman.
Originally posted by pfflam
(hi Powerdoc
I think that this situation is terrible. It may be an unavoidable fact however as we have to negotiate with tribal leaders and religious leaders who are all a bunch of virulent macho idiots that think that a 'good woman' is an invisible woman.
Thanks for your reply Pflamm. At least someone is interested by women in Iraq.
As you said it may be an unavoidable fact. But it's paradoxal, that a countrie wich promote women rights like US, are obliged to deal with this kind of people. The choice seems to be limited between religious macho idiots and Saddam's lover. Where is the modern iraq people : are they doomed to silence, or did Saddam regime destroyed all intelligence ?
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Thanks for your reply Pflamm. At least someone is interested by women in Iraq.
As you said it may be an unavoidable fact. But it's paradoxal, that a countrie wich promote women rights like US, are obliged to deal with this kind of people. The choice seems to be limited between religious macho idiots and Saddam's lover. Where is the modern iraq people : are they doomed to silence, or did Saddam regime destroyed all intelligence ?
Well I've been watching this thread to see how long it took you to get a response (if you got a response). Four days. Hmmm....
Having said that, Iraq was a secular Islamic country before the US decided it knew best. So that worked well didn't it? While I don't like seeing women or men of any nationality oppressed, history has convinced me that self-determination is nearly always the best option in the long run. Interfering in the affairs of other countries rarely does any good and often it makes the situation worse.
Originally posted by segovius
Well, personally I only just noticed it now or I'd have been wreaking havoc straight away, can't believe I missed it before.....damn
Yeah and then when you do show up, you almost steal my reply.
But you lost me in those last couple of paragraphs. There was a journo on TV here this morning who has just returned from Iraq. He claims that the vast majority of Iraqis just want the US out even though they realise that the country will degenerate into bloody civil war. Now this could be just his perspective but I'm inclined to believe it. Partly because many other journalists have reported the same thing and partly because I want the US to butt out of my country's affairs and I live in a comfy, cosseted 1st world country with far less (obvious) US influence than is currently apparent in Iraq.
I really don't know if you can affect this sort of change faster. Maybe (and that's a big maybe) you can give them a leg up but I think ultimately they have to get over the wall on their own.
Originally posted by segovius
I think you're probably right about the Iraqis wanting the US out whatever but this is because (imo) the US does very little to try to promote their agenda in terms of the customs of the region and perhaps the fundies have the advantage there.
Basically that last paragraph was trying to say that the US seem to have adopted a policy of 'accomodation' with the various interests in Iraq rather than trying to set a benchmark which people must live up to.
Whatever, Shari'a isn't the way to go imo.
So Iraqi women are better off having a bunch of (primarily) white anglo-saxon protestant American men deciding what's best for them than a bunch of fanatical Islamic Iraqi men? I see little evidence that either of these groups know what's best for Iraqi women.
It's not uncommon in Australia to see Muslim women wearing the veil. A few weeks ago I was in a shopping mall and this woman appeared wearing the whole shebang. She was decked out in black from head to foot with nothing but a narrow strip revealing her large, dark eyes. She was with a man who I would guess was her husband. That woman was one of the most stunning creatures I have ever laid eyes on. I mean we are talking jaw-dropper here. I would defy any of the men here not to find her one of the sexiest things they'd ever seen (or not seen as the case maybe). Maybe she hated it. Maybe the veil and long robe she wore covered the bruises from the beating he gave her last night. But I don't think so because that woman carried herself with a grace and dignity I rarely see in Western women.
Now as a white Western woman I can't even begin to comprehend how that can be. Her culture is so alien to me she may as well be from another planet. I don't know what's best for Iraqi women so why would a bunch of WASP males?
And to any Muslims who might read this, please understand I mean no disrespect by my comments.
People here are actually arguing that women in Iraq were better off under Saddam. Of course we get the usual anti-war, anti-US speeches along the way, all of which imply that the whole country was better off before the big, evil US got involved. After all...they had a secular government! Well then!
Nevermind Saddam's total brutality, his rape chambers, attempted genocide of the Kurds, mass murder, destruction of infastructure, etc, etc, etc.
Things were so much better in Saddam's paradise! The Iraqis want us to leave so we should go!
Maybe we set up a human rights watch on Saudi Arabia.
Originally posted by SDW2001
OK, let me get this straight:
People here are actually arguing that women in Iraq were better off under Saddam. Of course we get the usual anti-war, anti-US speeches along the way, all of which imply that the whole country was better off before the big, evil US got involved. After all...they had a secular government! Well then!
Nevermind Saddam's total brutality, his rape chambers, attempted genocide of the Kurds, mass murder, destruction of infastructure, etc, etc, etc.
Things were so much better in Saddam's paradise! The Iraqis want us to leave so we should go!
Well that's not quite the way I was reading people's comments but I guess it's possible to interpret them that way. What I would like to know is why you think the US is right in adopting the role it has in its international relations? And I ask that question without attaching any moral judgement to it whatsoever. If you want to answer it, just read it straight, as it's phrased.
Originally posted by SDW2001
OK, let me get this straight:
People here are actually arguing that women in Iraq were better off under Saddam. Of course we get the usual anti-war, anti-US speeches along the way, all of which imply that the whole country was better off before the big, evil US got involved. After all...they had a secular government! Well then!
Nevermind Saddam's total brutality, his rape chambers, attempted genocide of the Kurds, mass murder, destruction of infastructure, etc, etc, etc.
Things were so much better in Saddam's paradise! The Iraqis want us to leave so we should go!
as crazychester said, that's not quite the way I was reading the issue. . . . but you always have to read into anything that I say something anti-American :sheesh:
What I AM saying is that it is unfortunate that the repressed tendencies of mysogynistic-fundamentalism and tribalism will rise to the surface if they are not forcibly held at bay with some effort. . . . unfortunately, such an effort could only come from a super-genius of a dplomatic force, the likes of which this world has yet to see, in place as the Chief of the Transitional effort . . . unfortunately Bremmer isn't that force . . . and I can't think of anybody that could be
It is sad that the women of Iraq will have to experience a step back in turns of status but it is NOT sad that they don't have to fear Hussain . .
It isn't either-or and if you can't see concern for such an issue as real and can only read it as some sort of partisan positioning then you've screwed-up.
Originally posted by SDW2001
OK, let me get this straight:
People here are actually arguing that women in Iraq were better off under Saddam. Of course we get the usual anti-war, anti-US speeches along the way, all of which imply that the whole country was better off before the big, evil US got involved. After all...they had a secular government! Well then!
Nevermind Saddam's total brutality, his rape chambers, attempted genocide of the Kurds, mass murder, destruction of infastructure, etc, etc, etc.
Things were so much better in Saddam's paradise! The Iraqis want us to leave so we should go!
That's not what i was saying. I was speaking , of sport practice, the obligation of weil ...
Don't caricature my posts.
Originally posted by Ganondorf
I personally don't give a flying ****.
It's all at your honor.
Human Rights is a pile of crap.
Yes segovius yes.
But I think that will be enough.
Originally posted by crazychester
Well that's not quite the way I was reading people's comments but I guess it's possible to interpret them that way. What I would like to know is why you think the US is right in adopting the role it has in its international relations? And I ask that question without attaching any moral judgement to it whatsoever. If you want to answer it, just read it straight, as it's phrased.
That's a rather vague question. I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Originally posted by pfflam
as crazychester said, that's not quite the way I was reading the issue. . . . but you always have to read into anything that I say something anti-American :sheesh:
What I AM saying is that it is unfortunate that the repressed tendencies of mysogynistic-fundamentalism and tribalism will rise to the surface if they are not forcibly held at bay with some effort. . . . unfortunately, such an effort could only come from a super-genius of a dplomatic force, the likes of which this world has yet to see, in place as the Chief of the Transitional effort . . . unfortunately Bremmer isn't that force . . . and I can't think of anybody that could be
It is sad that the women of Iraq will have to experience a step back in turns of status but it is NOT sad that they don't have to fear Hussain . .
It isn't either-or and if you can't see concern for such an issue as real and can only read it as some sort of partisan positioning then you've screwed-up.
Pfflam,
Using the term "mysogynistic-fundamentalism" does not impresss me. You speak of a diplomatic effort. What kind of effort are you talking about?
Originally posted by Powerdoc
That's not what i was saying. I was speaking , of sport practice, the obligation of weil ...
Don't caricature my posts.
With all due respect, that's exactly what you were arguing, whether you knew it or not.
The situation of women human-rights are getting worse since the end of Saddam era.
Today is a sad day, it's the day of the Women, but in Iraq a temporary constitution has been voted mostly based on islamic laws. This will not promote women's freedoom.
What should it be based on, Judeo-Christian laws? Do you think that would be accepted?
Originally posted by SDW2001
With all due respect, that's exactly what you were arguing, whether you knew it or not.
And you're a racist, whether you know it or not.
Do I believe that? Not entirely. Easy to say though, isn't it?
However, I won't do so in a thread that opens up with you calling your political opponent a "bigot" and "gay-hater". I oppose gay marriage as does over 60% of the population. According to you, those of use in that group are all biggoted. That's unreasonable in the extreme. We cannot even begin to have a conversation or debate about an issue like this if you insist on labeling anyone who disagrees with you with this kind of terminology. Where does it stop? Is anyone that opposes slave reparations a racist? Affirmitive action? Do I hate the poor because I oppose many welfare programs? Such thinking is convenenient and self-reinforcing, but also deluded. And no, that's not an insult.
Apparently you cannot take your own advice. Just because we don't like the current situation in Iraq does not mean we automatically want Saddam reinstated. I think what Powerdoc and others are trying to argue is that the US hasn't completely "fixed" Iraq. Yeah, we've gotten rid of Saddam and his evil practices, but that doesn't make us saints. I do think the Iraqi people should follow a constitution based on their own ideals, but I also think it should include things like religious freedom that we value so much here in the US. If a woman is not a Muslim, let her be herself and not be forced into Islam against her will!
I could go on to say that you hate Iraqi women because you favor the current constitution which allows violence against free-thinking Iraqi women to go on, but I won't. Likewise, you could call me a bigot against Islam for saying that, but I really hope you won't. We both know that those statements aren't true.
Originally posted by Ganondorf
I don't think my honor is measured in my concern for other people's societies.
Human Rights is a pile of crap.
boy . .. you sure have decided to be Birminghams's pride of intellectualism these days haven't you?!