I'd like to see an option where you can double-click on a window title bar to send the window to the back. My Atari (!) used to do this and it was really useful, especially if you had a big window covering a smaller one. The advantage over Windowshading I guess is that the big window is still there for you to click on when you want to bring it back in front (rather than just a title bar).
Maybe they should change the option in the Appearance prefs pane to:
its not 800 windows, but it was enough to bring my g4 867 to its knees
edit: its 222 windows, to be exact
Did you do that just the fun of it? And how long did it take you to count em all?
Still going back to topic, window shading is spot on for me. I have arthritis so too much mouse peddling to the dock and back is a big no no. I agree with silentechoes about the dock being best for long term minimising and expose is a cool feature but cmd+tab is best for switching apps. So we all agreed they all have their pros and cons, so surely it wouldn't hurt to have em all built in the OS by default? I guess whats really needed is a new and innovative way of dealing with windows maybe something like having multiple desktops ( i know its available as in linux) but how about having the rotating user switching thing applied to it, So say you can have photoshop, quark etc on seperate screens and then rotate em round with a simple keystroke.
You know it makes sense, any apple programmers reading this?
so while my desktop is covered in windows, i could be double-clicking to shade and unshade, (where to switch focus from one active app to a windowshaded one and back takes minimum six clicks if dbl-clicking),
You missed one thing. It's six clicks and moving the pointing device. Windoshading requires no additional navigation for the mere act of peeking beneath a window.
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whereas I could move my thumb less than an inch on my iBook's trackpad, using Exposé and with zero clicks discover even more valuable info from background processes than a mere windowshade bar provides.
Not at all similar. You have to scrub the trackpad, move to a different window, and in the process possibly reorder the windows spatially. That's a lot of work and unnecessary change if all you want to do is peek behind a window.
Quote:
I can gauge the relative progress of tracks in iTunes, the rough percentage of downloads completed in Acquisition, the scene of the movie or video stream playing in the background, redraw completion or rendering progress for apps.
Windowshaded title bars offer almost none of this information compared to Exposé
So what? Nobody's arguing against the usefulness of Exposé, sheesh. Quit trying to compare the two. Windowshade is tons better for specific actions, and that's why it boggles the mind that Apple removed in OS X.
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If your concern it the spatial positioning of windows, hit F10 or gesture to get Exposé moving, then use the plain old Tab key to cycle through the active apps (in their last specified spatial positions)
Except Command-Tab and tabbing Exposé is dependent on how many apps are open. It's extra work. Also, Command-Tab doesn't scrub through windows, it scrubs through applications. You get an F here. And Command-<tilde> is also window order dependent and sequential instead of spatial.
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If you're counting key clicks as important, Windowshading just doesn't seem as efficient.
In OS 8 and 9 versions of Windowshade, if you were like me, you might sometimes superimpose two rolled up bars in the same bit of screen real estate (in order to have more docs 'open' onscreen even if slightly overlapping), you would actually be facing more clicks to shuffle them around and get the feedback you want about window state than Exposé provides by rearranging all active windows for you
'Might' being the key word. There are plenty of times where Windowshade is the brain-dead obvious option. Two double-clicks. Give me another option for peeking underneath a window in two double-clicks.
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maybe I'm just infatuated with Exposé, but I'm struggling to see where Windowshade competes
You're so infatuated with Exposé that you can't even see that Windowshade doesn't compete. You think Exposé does everything when it clearly does not. Exposé is a way to do somethings nicely and a ham-fisted way of doing other things merely O.K. Windowshade does one or two things really well.
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Windowshade seems built to try and hack a solution to spatial limits on desktop space while allowing for greater clutter in the same pixel bounds, yet doesn't provide the feedback of minimized windows or full docs under the pile
Windowshade seems like it's way ahead of its time to me. It is breaking the areal limits of the desktop because the desktop is largely two-dimensional. If it had an animation where the portion of the window beneath the title-bar actually flipped-up, you might see where it's going. Three-dimensional window manipulation...there was recently a Sun demonstration on this very concept.
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Exposé seems built to detour around the spatial limits and pixel bounds entirely by effectively allowing 'infinite' stacking in the same space without the penalty of lost info due to 'scrolled up' docs, or awkward overhead in accessing items lower in the stack
Yadda yadda Exposé is the solution for everything yadda yadda. Exposé saved my unborn child yadda yadda.
Quote:
you're asking to glance at only the title of the page underneath... you could tell that the report was on your desk, but no useful info would be revealed unless you then clicked to open that report... where's the savings in real-estate or productivity
and it sounds like what you've described is more precisely Exposé than Windowshade.
You're telling me what I do now? I have a Safari window underneath the one I'm currently typing in. What should I do to look at it? I could double-click on the title-bar. I could click on the window. I could waste my time using Exposé.
Windowshade allows me to use the least mouse movement.
Clicking on a visible part of the obscured window allows me the least clicks, but the most mouse movement.
Exposé has neither the least button clicks nor the least mouse movement.
Quote:
maybe a combination of Exposé and Windowshade could co-exist,
but the capsule behaviour of window titlebars in many apps to toggle Aqua/Brushed Metal/Small Icons has already claimed the traditional Windowshade switch location, and Exposé still seems to offer a stronger implementation of quasi-spatial finder for my tastes
Exposé is more a solution to the spatial finder by making everything temporarily flat. I don't think that makes for a very good argument. Windowshade has its uses, and it shouldn't be dismissed from OS X. Have it in a check box in the General Preferences, and have it accessible by a double-click in the title-bar.
I don't understand why people want it gone. Exposé does not replace it. It's not an argument for one or the other, so don't keep steering it that way.
It's almost there, but it'd be nice if it operated more like cmd-tab though. How cmd-tab doesn't just simply cycle through open apps, but puts the current one at the front of the line, and selects the 2nd, setting itself up for a quick toggle.
Yadda yadda Exposé is the solution for everything yadda yadda. Exposé saved my unborn child yadda yadda.
Exposé is more a solution to the spatial finder by making everything temporarily flat. I don't think that makes for a very good argument. Windowshade has its uses, and it shouldn't be dismissed from OS X. Have it in a check box in the General Preferences, and have it accessible by a double-click in the title-bar.
I don't understand why people want it gone. Exposé does not replace it. It's not an argument for one or the other, so don't keep steering it that way.
Relax, Eugene. A little too much hyperbole on my part. Mea culpa.
a "Use Windowshade" check box option sounds like a nice compromise
I recall reading some interesting discussions on spatial finder metaphors,
either prior to the arrival of Expose or prompted by its implementation vs prior desktop stacking systems like Windowshade, as well as more hierarchical and/or more relational filing systems (including other OS/platform attempts to solve the same challenges).
not sure if it was here or Apple, or where... < goes in search >
I guess whats really needed is a new and innovative way of dealing with windows maybe something like having multiple desktops ( i know its available as in linux) but how about having the rotating user switching thing applied to it, So say you can have photoshop, quark etc on seperate screens and then rotate em round with a simple keystroke.
I just don't see Windowshade coming back anytime soon.
I can't deny it has its occasional uses, but also (personal opinion here) can't say I ever quite liked it. Odd-looking and way too much work. It is nice for rolling up a single window quickly, but tabs (for browsing) and hiding / cmd-tab / Exposé (system-wide) has it beat hands down for everything else. And is the desire to "peek behind a window" something that really comes up that often...? I can't say it occurs all that often in my UE.
With WindowShadeX available, anyway, this whole issue doesn't seem quite so urgent. If you need windowshading, dammit it's yours for ten bucks -- even of the minimize-in-place variety.
Hey Dale - it works great...almost. If you have the option to switch desktops when going to the edges, it does so even if you have two monitors. So for me...it switches every time I move my mouse to the other monitor.
It should instead only switch if you get to the edge of the second monitor.
Remember minimize in place? I never tried the hack, but it seemed like a good alternative to Window Shade. You could double-click the window title bar and have the window minimize under the cursor. From there, you could dub-clk again to return to normal, or move the mini window aside. Maybe there would be some behavior (like mini windows always on top...or shaded) to indicate the window was minimized.
All of this makes me think that there is a very elegant solution that fits most of this bill (not all) that none of us have thought of. Having minimizing, Expose, windowshading, multiple workspaces, command-tab and command-~, and the Dock all at the same time seems like an incredible kludge and unecessarily complicates the user experience. Wish I knew the answer.
It makes me think whether a window-based UI is really best, but then again, I'm not sure I'm able to think of a good alternative paradigm.
Comments
Originally posted by cybermonkey
i would love to see a screenie of 800 windows open, thats gotta be a world record
its not 800 windows, but it was enough to bring my g4 867 to its knees
edit: its 222 windows, to be exact
Maybe they should change the option in the Appearance prefs pane to:
Double click on a window title bar to:
Minimize
Windowshade
Send to Back
Neil.
a.k.a. Arnel
Originally posted by ThunderPoit
its not 800 windows, but it was enough to bring my g4 867 to its knees
edit: its 222 windows, to be exact
Did you do that just the fun of it? And how long did it take you to count em all?
Still going back to topic, window shading is spot on for me. I have arthritis so too much mouse peddling to the dock and back is a big no no. I agree with silentechoes about the dock being best for long term minimising and expose is a cool feature but cmd+tab is best for switching apps. So we all agreed they all have their pros and cons, so surely it wouldn't hurt to have em all built in the OS by default? I guess whats really needed is a new and innovative way of dealing with windows maybe something like having multiple desktops ( i know its available as in linux) but how about having the rotating user switching thing applied to it, So say you can have photoshop, quark etc on seperate screens and then rotate em round with a simple keystroke.
You know it makes sense, any apple programmers reading this?
Originally posted by curiousuburb
so while my desktop is covered in windows, i could be double-clicking to shade and unshade, (where to switch focus from one active app to a windowshaded one and back takes minimum six clicks if dbl-clicking),
You missed one thing. It's six clicks and moving the pointing device. Windoshading requires no additional navigation for the mere act of peeking beneath a window.
whereas I could move my thumb less than an inch on my iBook's trackpad, using Exposé and with zero clicks discover even more valuable info from background processes than a mere windowshade bar provides.
Not at all similar. You have to scrub the trackpad, move to a different window, and in the process possibly reorder the windows spatially. That's a lot of work and unnecessary change if all you want to do is peek behind a window.
I can gauge the relative progress of tracks in iTunes, the rough percentage of downloads completed in Acquisition, the scene of the movie or video stream playing in the background, redraw completion or rendering progress for apps.
Windowshaded title bars offer almost none of this information compared to Exposé
So what? Nobody's arguing against the usefulness of Exposé, sheesh. Quit trying to compare the two. Windowshade is tons better for specific actions, and that's why it boggles the mind that Apple removed in OS X.
If your concern it the spatial positioning of windows, hit F10 or gesture to get Exposé moving, then use the plain old Tab key to cycle through the active apps (in their last specified spatial positions)
Except Command-Tab and tabbing Exposé is dependent on how many apps are open. It's extra work. Also, Command-Tab doesn't scrub through windows, it scrubs through applications. You get an F here. And Command-<tilde> is also window order dependent and sequential instead of spatial.
If you're counting key clicks as important, Windowshading just doesn't seem as efficient.
In OS 8 and 9 versions of Windowshade, if you were like me, you might sometimes superimpose two rolled up bars in the same bit of screen real estate (in order to have more docs 'open' onscreen even if slightly overlapping), you would actually be facing more clicks to shuffle them around and get the feedback you want about window state than Exposé provides by rearranging all active windows for you
'Might' being the key word. There are plenty of times where Windowshade is the brain-dead obvious option. Two double-clicks. Give me another option for peeking underneath a window in two double-clicks.
maybe I'm just infatuated with Exposé, but I'm struggling to see where Windowshade competes
You're so infatuated with Exposé that you can't even see that Windowshade doesn't compete. You think Exposé does everything when it clearly does not. Exposé is a way to do somethings nicely and a ham-fisted way of doing other things merely O.K. Windowshade does one or two things really well.
Windowshade seems built to try and hack a solution to spatial limits on desktop space while allowing for greater clutter in the same pixel bounds, yet doesn't provide the feedback of minimized windows or full docs under the pile
Windowshade seems like it's way ahead of its time to me. It is breaking the areal limits of the desktop because the desktop is largely two-dimensional. If it had an animation where the portion of the window beneath the title-bar actually flipped-up, you might see where it's going. Three-dimensional window manipulation...there was recently a Sun demonstration on this very concept.
Exposé seems built to detour around the spatial limits and pixel bounds entirely by effectively allowing 'infinite' stacking in the same space without the penalty of lost info due to 'scrolled up' docs, or awkward overhead in accessing items lower in the stack
Yadda yadda Exposé is the solution for everything yadda yadda. Exposé saved my unborn child yadda yadda.
you're asking to glance at only the title of the page underneath... you could tell that the report was on your desk, but no useful info would be revealed unless you then clicked to open that report... where's the savings in real-estate or productivity
and it sounds like what you've described is more precisely Exposé than Windowshade.
You're telling me what I do now? I have a Safari window underneath the one I'm currently typing in. What should I do to look at it? I could double-click on the title-bar. I could click on the window. I could waste my time using Exposé.
Windowshade allows me to use the least mouse movement.
Clicking on a visible part of the obscured window allows me the least clicks, but the most mouse movement.
Exposé has neither the least button clicks nor the least mouse movement.
maybe a combination of Exposé and Windowshade could co-exist,
but the capsule behaviour of window titlebars in many apps to toggle Aqua/Brushed Metal/Small Icons has already claimed the traditional Windowshade switch location, and Exposé still seems to offer a stronger implementation of quasi-spatial finder for my tastes
Exposé is more a solution to the spatial finder by making everything temporarily flat. I don't think that makes for a very good argument. Windowshade has its uses, and it shouldn't be dismissed from OS X. Have it in a check box in the General Preferences, and have it accessible by a double-click in the title-bar.
I don't understand why people want it gone. Exposé does not replace it. It's not an argument for one or the other, so don't keep steering it that way.
It's almost there, but it'd be nice if it operated more like cmd-tab though. How cmd-tab doesn't just simply cycle through open apps, but puts the current one at the front of the line, and selects the 2nd, setting itself up for a quick toggle.
Originally posted by Eugene
Yadda yadda Exposé is the solution for everything yadda yadda. Exposé saved my unborn child yadda yadda.
Exposé is more a solution to the spatial finder by making everything temporarily flat. I don't think that makes for a very good argument. Windowshade has its uses, and it shouldn't be dismissed from OS X. Have it in a check box in the General Preferences, and have it accessible by a double-click in the title-bar.
I don't understand why people want it gone. Exposé does not replace it. It's not an argument for one or the other, so don't keep steering it that way.
Relax, Eugene. A little too much hyperbole on my part. Mea culpa.
a "Use Windowshade" check box option sounds like a nice compromise
I recall reading some interesting discussions on spatial finder metaphors,
either prior to the arrival of Expose or prompted by its implementation vs prior desktop stacking systems like Windowshade, as well as more hierarchical and/or more relational filing systems (including other OS/platform attempts to solve the same challenges).
not sure if it was here or Apple, or where... < goes in search >
Originally posted by cybermonkey
I guess whats really needed is a new and innovative way of dealing with windows maybe something like having multiple desktops ( i know its available as in linux) but how about having the rotating user switching thing applied to it, So say you can have photoshop, quark etc on seperate screens and then rotate em round with a simple keystroke.
Your wish is my command: http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net
I can't deny it has its occasional uses, but also (personal opinion here) can't say I ever quite liked it. Odd-looking and way too much work. It is nice for rolling up a single window quickly, but tabs (for browsing) and hiding / cmd-tab / Exposé (system-wide) has it beat hands down for everything else. And is the desire to "peek behind a window" something that really comes up that often...? I can't say it occurs all that often in my UE.
With WindowShadeX available, anyway, this whole issue doesn't seem quite so urgent. If you need windowshading, dammit it's yours for ten bucks -- even of the minimize-in-place variety.
Originally posted by Dale Sorel
Your wish is my command: http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net
Cheers for that, works a treat! And nice to see it doesnt cost $10
Originally posted by Dale Sorel
Your wish is my command: http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net
Hey Dale - it works great...almost. If you have the option to switch desktops when going to the edges, it does so even if you have two monitors. So for me...it switches every time I move my mouse to the other monitor.
It should instead only switch if you get to the edge of the second monitor.
It makes me think whether a window-based UI is really best, but then again, I'm not sure I'm able to think of a good alternative paradigm.
Originally posted by Chucker
Actually, he says on the page that he's working on multi-monitor support for the next version...
Ah...I looked there and must have missed it.
Originally posted by cybermonkey
Cheers for that, works a treat! And nice to see it doesnt cost $10
Glad I could help point you folks in the right direction
I can't wait 'till you can drag stuff from screen to screen