Tibet developed a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT culture over a period of hundreds of years
Tibet has no resources and has no desire to be Chinese
What lies are being told to the Chineses people about Tibet that can make you say that the invasion of Tibet was remotely justified?
Tibet was in China . . . when was that? . . . Do you mean back when China was ruled by the Mongols and was part of the Largest Empire ever on earth?
Tibet is far more Mongolian than Chinese
But better yet, Tibet is Tibetan . . . or at least it should be!
You know, I actually personally would not care if it were a part of China, but...
For over 2000 years Tibet had been very closely associated with the Chinese empire because well, China was extremely prosperous and they wanted to be a part of it.
True, it is very different culturally, but hey so are the other 55 ethnic groups.
But is that a reason that they should be separate countries?
I'm sure the US would like to see that because separatism for china would mean a less powerful country as a whole and good news for us. (just like you're doing in many other places... ie balkan area)
I have discussed the Tibet issues many a time before and I can guarantee you that it goes nowhere, so lets stay away from it. There are many arguments for just as there are against whether it should be independent.
But what's the point? There is very little chance it ever will be independent and only the ex-ruling class in Tibet wish to have indipendence (10-15%) That is not "all" the people in Tibet and their living conditions and quality of life has increased tenfold since 1949. They ARE free to practise their religion as long as it's not used as a separatism rally.
sure, you can argue that China is lying about this.
But why don't you go there and have a look yourself instead of hearing about it from pro tibet indipendence people?
So... according to your argument, like cultures should be a single country. How about taiwan? They are as similar as can be with the Han ethnic group. Yet you want these two similar cultures to be different countries?
Sure, you can have American R&D labs outsource the plant to China, but patent protection in China is nonexistant and the Chinese I've met seem to argue that this is a good thing.
Yes, I very much agree with you. (I believe you mean it's patent reinforcement that's the problem) And I've talked about this with Chinese people just as you have and it is quite true they argue that it is a good thing.
I am hoping (and I believe) this will change. One could argue that people are still not quite ready for this.
But hey, look at protectionism some 10 years ago. No one even had their own property.
That's quite a leap if you ask me, and I bet 10 years from now things would be a lot brighter.
Tibet was not just different culturally, it WAS a different country!!!
There is NO arguement for it and you are wrong!
it is that simple . . .
and maybe I have been there . . . have You?
ok... if you say so....
I was there in 1997 with my uncle. The tibetan monks were not only very friendly but seemed very happy. (I really doubt that they're being forced to seem happy, if you choose to argue that they have to be happy or they will be arrested) (but then again, if you try to argue something like that, the argument goes nowhere)
Tibetan food is pretty tastless though....very bland tasting. lol
There's a beautiful picture I took of a landscape, it's really surreal, if i find it in my cds I'll post it. Tibet is really beautiful.
The first time I went to NYC from Yoorp I got off the plane and thought ... damn. This is a town that doesn't care a shtit what you think, because it doesn't have to. It's the only game in town. It's incredibly exciting. You do business on NYC's terms, no-one's bigger then the town or the system. Incredibly exciting, incredibly exhillarating. I loved it.
Now:
I've actually been to Beijing, and let me tell you ... you get off the plane there and it's like NYC must have been 40 years ago. It doesn't care a shtit what you think, because it doesn't have to. The feeling of growth, of new opinions being formed, of growing power and self-confidence is like nothing I've ever seen in my life. It's coming for ya, China, and it's coming like ... now. Absolutely amazing. A place to become a millionaire.
The US will slowly crumble unless a serious revolution takes place and changes the whole system of government and society. Consumerism is not a self-sustaining way of life to follow, especially for a nation so large as the USA. And an imperialist foreign policy will just make even more people viciously hate the US.
Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" and it is quite evident that the whole American lifestyle is slowly caving in on itself. Children killing children? Something is seriously wrong...
WTF, I don't think the tibetans themselves are even so hyped about independence.
And what's the point of you posting this... just to try to make me angry?
And if they really wanted it badly, I think we would hear a bit more from them.
But whatever, the US isn't going to do anything about it, so dream on.
Monesteries blown up and monks killed and imprisoned, imprisoned for even carrying a photo of the Dalai Lamma!!! . . . what are they supposed to do . .. they tend to be religious after all, and fighting would not only be stupid, but runs counter to their beliefs.
You are parroting idiotic LIES and are clearly BRAINWASHED to believe what is obviously FALSE:
Tibet is NOT China,
Tibetans DO NOT want to be Chinese!
Tibet has never been China (though it probably 'related' to it and shared Mongol rulers)
and it is NOT A GOOD THING that China has IMPERIALISTICALLY invaded Tibet and occupied it for all these years . . . in fact it sucks!
Are they providing the Tibetans with 'Glorious shiny new Chinese Culture and History'?
I think, unfortunately, they are trying to, except that contemporary Chinese culture is shiite compared to the rich, nuanced, unique, and soon to be completely destroyed Tibetan culture
I've been in the US for 5 months and I've noticed that there is an incredible focus on the individual, meaning that people are very anal about their personal space, need time alone and people mind their own business a lot (even between friends)
I've found this hard to get used to because, well, I grew up in Italy where i just realised now consciously as a result of lack of it here in the US that there is a lot more physical contact and a group. No one ever does anything by themselves (go on a hike or go shopping or whatever) and an american friend when she went to Italy told her host family she was going to go hiking alone and they were appalled.
I am also ethnically Chinese (although it's been a while since I've lived there) and if you've ever tried doing business with the Chinese you'll see that you need to know them at a personal level. Just doing business the new york way is not possible because of cultural reasons. I attended a Prudential Relocation seminar about training people from BP to work with the chinese that taught exactly this.
So I've got friends here at the University that they themselves say are my good friends except i don't feel like it's personal enough.
ok, so here's my theory:
what this means is that we will se a lot more divorces. A friend of my father's at the UN specialised in gender studies once said something about how one of the things that make a good marriage is really needing each other for things other than just love, such as trying to struggle to make a living, and as the US people get more independent spouses will need each other for less reasons.
And of course in terms of friendship and social connexions.
Another thing I've found about the US is that people follow rules very strictly, meaning there is absolutely no flexibility in rules. I am not agaist this and I know that it's a requirement for things to work, however...
I feel uncomfortably tied down because I think it is only human to be flexible.
I feel very stressed as a result of these things when I'm in the US. When I go back to Italy or China I feel a lot more laid back and relaxed.
Does what I say make sense or is it distorted?
P.S. And lets keep this to a friendly discussion and not some heated debate. I hate debates because the two sides fail to listen to each other and are busy trying to disprove the other. I will say no more about the Tibet problem if you cordially will too.
I'll bite. My family does business in China, and you're right, if you have any hope of doing business there, you *have* to know people at the personal level. The reason why runs smack dab into your second point, about rules being 'flexible'.
Graft.
You want to do business? You have to know who to pay, who to make happy, and who to avoid as an enemy.
It makes 20's Chicago look like Disneyland.
China's undergoing a huge massive shift in culture and direction, and it's incredible to see... it's also more than a little frightening to see the level of dishonesty, disrespect of humanity, and outright lack of honor while things pan out.
True story:
A wood mill in a northern coastal town in China wanted a new laser-guided milling machine from the business. Cooperative mill was opened, to be jointly owned by US and Chinese interests. In the summer, it hits 100deg/100% humidity, and in the winter, -20deg. The building had zero heat or cooling. "The workers don't need it, they're used to it." Well, my mother was appalled... spent months trying to convince the Chinese partners that this was just inhumane. "If they don't like it, they can quit. We can always get more workers."
I finally told her to tell them that their shiny new equipment needed to be kept optimally at 70deg at all times. They plunked down the money for HVAC in about two seconds.
People just plain don't count in the new corporate culture of China - it's the worst aspects of US corporatism fused with the worst parts of a culture that has traditionally looked down on individuality.
So yeah, you need to know people well to get through it. Because if you play by the rules, well... they're 'flexible'.
Edit: I have high hopes for where China will end up, but *right now*, it's a pretty sorry mess. Yes, they've come far very quickly, but as you stated in comparing China to the former USSR, sometimes quick isn't good. Overall, the pseudo-capitalism is about as well organized as a bazaar, and, much like one, you have to watch your wallet at all times or someone will gleefully snag it.
(/Back on topic) I'm gonna try and answer the original question of this thread, i.e.:
Quote:
...will the US be able to maintain it's technological, economical and arguably, cultural dominance 100 years from now...
My response to this: No.
Just to remind of some of the definitions of empire (from dictionary.com):
Quote:
empire
A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
The territory included in such a unit.
An extensive enterprise under a unified authority: a publishing empire.
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control.
America, then, is an empire, as was Britain, China and indeed Rome. And the history of these empires show that empires rise and fall. Nothing is constant in human and societal relations. America will fall.
I don't believe, though, that she will be defeated by some superior military power. This is because no superior military power currently exists and the USA already has the capacity to annihilate the entire human population. (No source for that -- just a bit of hyperbole, but I think it is true.)
So, if America will not fall by military defeat, how will it go? I think either by internal strife; by world-wide catastrophic resource shortages; or by subsumation into global corporations.
Comments
Originally posted by pfflam
What claim could China possibly have on Tibet?
Tibet developed a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT culture over a period of hundreds of years
Tibet has no resources and has no desire to be Chinese
What lies are being told to the Chineses people about Tibet that can make you say that the invasion of Tibet was remotely justified?
Tibet was in China . . . when was that? . . . Do you mean back when China was ruled by the Mongols and was part of the Largest Empire ever on earth?
Tibet is far more Mongolian than Chinese
But better yet, Tibet is Tibetan . . . or at least it should be!
You know, I actually personally would not care if it were a part of China, but...
For over 2000 years Tibet had been very closely associated with the Chinese empire because well, China was extremely prosperous and they wanted to be a part of it.
True, it is very different culturally, but hey so are the other 55 ethnic groups.
But is that a reason that they should be separate countries?
I'm sure the US would like to see that because separatism for china would mean a less powerful country as a whole and good news for us. (just like you're doing in many other places... ie balkan area)
I have discussed the Tibet issues many a time before and I can guarantee you that it goes nowhere, so lets stay away from it. There are many arguments for just as there are against whether it should be independent.
But what's the point? There is very little chance it ever will be independent and only the ex-ruling class in Tibet wish to have indipendence (10-15%) That is not "all" the people in Tibet and their living conditions and quality of life has increased tenfold since 1949. They ARE free to practise their religion as long as it's not used as a separatism rally.
sure, you can argue that China is lying about this.
But why don't you go there and have a look yourself instead of hearing about it from pro tibet indipendence people?
So... according to your argument, like cultures should be a single country. How about taiwan? They are as similar as can be with the Han ethnic group. Yet you want these two similar cultures to be different countries?
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Sure, you can have American R&D labs outsource the plant to China, but patent protection in China is nonexistant and the Chinese I've met seem to argue that this is a good thing.
Yes, I very much agree with you. (I believe you mean it's patent reinforcement that's the problem) And I've talked about this with Chinese people just as you have and it is quite true they argue that it is a good thing.
I am hoping (and I believe) this will change. One could argue that people are still not quite ready for this.
But hey, look at protectionism some 10 years ago. No one even had their own property.
That's quite a leap if you ask me, and I bet 10 years from now things would be a lot brighter.
There is NO arguement for it and you are wrong!
it is that simple . . .
and maybe I have been there . . . have You?
Originally posted by pfflam
Tibet was not just different culturally, it WAS a different country!!!
There is NO arguement for it and you are wrong!
it is that simple . . .
and maybe I have been there . . . have You?
ok... if you say so....
I was there in 1997 with my uncle. The tibetan monks were not only very friendly but seemed very happy. (I really doubt that they're being forced to seem happy, if you choose to argue that they have to be happy or they will be arrested) (but then again, if you try to argue something like that, the argument goes nowhere)
Tibetan food is pretty tastless though....very bland tasting. lol
There's a beautiful picture I took of a landscape, it's really surreal, if i find it in my cds I'll post it. Tibet is really beautiful.
NOT because they are Tibetan's ruled by Chinese monks
Originally posted by dmz
Well, who needs the Circuses when you've got Kill Bill, Howard Stern, and Sex in the City?
WTF, I don't think the tibetans themselves are even so hyped about independence.
And what's the point of you posting this... just to try to make me angry?
And if they really wanted it badly, I think we would hear a bit more from them.
But whatever, the US isn't going to do anything about it, so dream on.
Originally posted by stevegongrui
....it's really not your business at all.
I'd say not, if I were talking about Tibetian monks, I would have said so.
Originally posted by hardhead
J.D., fair enough.
Powerdoc, you are a moderator? I posted for a legitimate discussion and this is your contribution.
You little punk-ass...
Yes i am a mod, and this was my contribution
I knew that you thread will degenerate quickly because it had all the ingredients recquired. Now it's done.
[scary music]
CENTURION:
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domus'? 'People called Romanes they go the house'?
BRIAN:
It-- it says, 'Romans, go home'.
CENTURION:
No, it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!
---
If it's this kind of Empire, we might be OK.
No new Nero, please.
Wake me uo when you detail a few of those--for now it just looks like a bogus analogy to me.
Now:
I've actually been to Beijing, and let me tell you ... you get off the plane there and it's like NYC must have been 40 years ago. It doesn't care a shtit what you think, because it doesn't have to. The feeling of growth, of new opinions being formed, of growing power and self-confidence is like nothing I've ever seen in my life. It's coming for ya, China, and it's coming like ... now. Absolutely amazing. A place to become a millionaire.
Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" and it is quite evident that the whole American lifestyle is slowly caving in on itself. Children killing children? Something is seriously wrong...
.h
Originally posted by stevegongrui
WTF, I don't think the tibetans themselves are even so hyped about independence.
And what's the point of you posting this... just to try to make me angry?
And if they really wanted it badly, I think we would hear a bit more from them.
But whatever, the US isn't going to do anything about it, so dream on.
Monesteries blown up and monks killed and imprisoned, imprisoned for even carrying a photo of the Dalai Lamma!!! . . . what are they supposed to do . .. they tend to be religious after all, and fighting would not only be stupid, but runs counter to their beliefs.
You are parroting idiotic LIES and are clearly BRAINWASHED to believe what is obviously FALSE:
Tibet is NOT China,
Tibetans DO NOT want to be Chinese!
Tibet has never been China (though it probably 'related' to it and shared Mongol rulers)
and it is NOT A GOOD THING that China has IMPERIALISTICALLY invaded Tibet and occupied it for all these years . . . in fact it sucks!
Are they providing the Tibetans with 'Glorious shiny new Chinese Culture and History'?
I think, unfortunately, they are trying to, except that contemporary Chinese culture is shiite compared to the rich, nuanced, unique, and soon to be completely destroyed Tibetan culture
I've found this hard to get used to because, well, I grew up in Italy where i just realised now consciously as a result of lack of it here in the US that there is a lot more physical contact and a group. No one ever does anything by themselves (go on a hike or go shopping or whatever) and an american friend when she went to Italy told her host family she was going to go hiking alone and they were appalled.
I am also ethnically Chinese (although it's been a while since I've lived there) and if you've ever tried doing business with the Chinese you'll see that you need to know them at a personal level. Just doing business the new york way is not possible because of cultural reasons. I attended a Prudential Relocation seminar about training people from BP to work with the chinese that taught exactly this.
So I've got friends here at the University that they themselves say are my good friends except i don't feel like it's personal enough.
ok, so here's my theory:
what this means is that we will se a lot more divorces. A friend of my father's at the UN specialised in gender studies once said something about how one of the things that make a good marriage is really needing each other for things other than just love, such as trying to struggle to make a living, and as the US people get more independent spouses will need each other for less reasons.
And of course in terms of friendship and social connexions.
Another thing I've found about the US is that people follow rules very strictly, meaning there is absolutely no flexibility in rules. I am not agaist this and I know that it's a requirement for things to work, however...
I feel uncomfortably tied down because I think it is only human to be flexible.
I feel very stressed as a result of these things when I'm in the US. When I go back to Italy or China I feel a lot more laid back and relaxed.
Does what I say make sense or is it distorted?
P.S. And lets keep this to a friendly discussion and not some heated debate. I hate debates because the two sides fail to listen to each other and are busy trying to disprove the other. I will say no more about the Tibet problem if you cordially will too.
Graft.
You want to do business? You have to know who to pay, who to make happy, and who to avoid as an enemy.
It makes 20's Chicago look like Disneyland.
China's undergoing a huge massive shift in culture and direction, and it's incredible to see... it's also more than a little frightening to see the level of dishonesty, disrespect of humanity, and outright lack of honor while things pan out.
True story:
A wood mill in a northern coastal town in China wanted a new laser-guided milling machine from the business. Cooperative mill was opened, to be jointly owned by US and Chinese interests. In the summer, it hits 100deg/100% humidity, and in the winter, -20deg. The building had zero heat or cooling. "The workers don't need it, they're used to it." Well, my mother was appalled... spent months trying to convince the Chinese partners that this was just inhumane. "If they don't like it, they can quit. We can always get more workers."
I finally told her to tell them that their shiny new equipment needed to be kept optimally at 70deg at all times. They plunked down the money for HVAC in about two seconds.
People just plain don't count in the new corporate culture of China - it's the worst aspects of US corporatism fused with the worst parts of a culture that has traditionally looked down on individuality.
So yeah, you need to know people well to get through it. Because if you play by the rules, well... they're 'flexible'.
Edit: I have high hopes for where China will end up, but *right now*, it's a pretty sorry mess. Yes, they've come far very quickly, but as you stated in comparing China to the former USSR, sometimes quick isn't good. Overall, the pseudo-capitalism is about as well organized as a bazaar, and, much like one, you have to watch your wallet at all times or someone will gleefully snag it.
Originally posted by stevegongrui
I will say no more about the Tibet problem
That is because your position is indefensible.
...will the US be able to maintain it's technological, economical and arguably, cultural dominance 100 years from now...
My response to this: No.
Just to remind of some of the definitions of empire (from dictionary.com):
empire
A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
The territory included in such a unit.
An extensive enterprise under a unified authority: a publishing empire.
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control.
America, then, is an empire, as was Britain, China and indeed Rome. And the history of these empires show that empires rise and fall. Nothing is constant in human and societal relations. America will fall.
I don't believe, though, that she will be defeated by some superior military power. This is because no superior military power currently exists and the USA already has the capacity to annihilate the entire human population. (No source for that -- just a bit of hyperbole, but I think it is true.)
So, if America will not fall by military defeat, how will it go? I think either by internal strife; by world-wide catastrophic resource shortages; or by subsumation into global corporations.