i think the real point is that if your grandmother had had even half of the money she'd put into SS as taxes invested into even moderate investments, she'd have millions to fall back on now.
instead she gets something like $300 a month to live on.
too many people looked at SS as some kind of retirement option, when it wasn't intended that way. now they're all screwed. and it's just getting worse.
with the money i'm going to have to pay into social security, and what my wife is going to have to pay in, we could easily retire by 55.
SS sucks, has been horribly mismanaged, and should be axed.
Because without their combined efforts you wouldn't have anything. They've contributed to this country to make it possible for you to do what you've done and they've sacrificed to make it easier, and in come cases simply possible when it wasn't before, for you to succeed.
I'm sorry but I profoundly disagree. Every age has it's good and bad people. I don't believe for a second that they did any more than live their lives and arrive at where they are now.
But since you quote the quote, you really should address the heart of it. That is EVERYONE really does care about money. They may lie to themselves and talk themselves into not getting financially intelligent, saving, investing, etc. They may do this out of fear or just a desire to leave the responsibility for the big decisions of their day to day life to others, be it a government, boss, or whomever. But when push comes to shove, everyone cares about money and what it provides in the end.
Social Security is nothing but the elderly writing themselves a nice intergenerational check. Why should young people be not only taxed at 13%, but be taking out ever more loans which have to be paid back with even more interest so that Grandma and Grandpa can have price subsidized medication (you bet I'll hit on Republicans alike on this issue) and retire in style. In addition to that those loans are going to get jobs their parents never could have done and are being chased to replace jobs that are being done for dollars a day in China, Mexico and India.
Talk about your generational burden. Hey sonny, pay for my retirement since I didn't earn enough with a nice factory manufactoring job to save for myself. Also pay for it with 60k of student loans from you AND your spouse so that you can both have decent paying jobs because my old job is being done in Mexico now.
The only thing the greatest generation (WWII) and the baby boomer generation have done is selfishly write themselves large checks from future generations. I don't care how well you lived your day to day life when you were 40,50 and even 60. It doesn't mean my children's children should be paying for it.
What sob story? She is fully ambulatory and capable of working at 91.
Actually, she isn't at the moment. She fell in her bank last week and has spent the last week in Hospital, She has 2 more weeks of Madicaid paid for care, then that's it
Quote:
Dealing with real estate, there are plenty of homes sold with "mother-in-laws" smaller homes the size of a one bedroom apartment in the back. Many women of her age often help a younger child purchase one with the proceeds from their own home sale. (The unlucky husband, we don't have to consider his means of getting by, he is dead.) Consider the purchasing opportunities a 91 year old woman had that you will never have had. She was buying homes and land when Disneyland was still a bunch of fruit orchards. Any home purchased on land in LA when she was younger would have been worth many, many times more than she would have ever paid for it by the time she retired.
She rents. She was married once in her twenties. She has no kids.
And I have the chance to buy property in LA at prices that people 60 years down the road will envy. That doesn't mean that I can just empty my sofa cushions and buy. If I could, then I would have that house with the "Mother-in-Law" place.
Quote:
My own mother's previous home, the one I grew up in, would likely list for about $250k. She and my father purchased it for about $28k in 1977. If she had stayed in it. She would have three years left on the mortgage with payments of approximately $200 a month. (Lower than my electric bill most months.) Instead she sold it and purchased a beach front condo for $90k a number of years ago. That condo just appraised for $390k. She had the money and ability to purchase it back when they had just started building them. When the community was still "speculative" etc. I'll have no such opportunity. Should I feel sorry for her, or her for me?
I certainly would not try to direct how you feel about anything. That would seem to be a waste of time. Glad your mom is taken care of. I hope her health continues. I soppose you are going to tell her to do the right thing and return her Social Security, since she's obviously sitting pretty in her expensive condo.
Quote:
You say she decided not to marry a rich guy (more than once.) You attempt to make it appear that she cared nothing for money. I don't find it odd that people who care nothing about wealth, often end up having none. Why should I care about their lack of wealth when they themselves claim not to. (Or lie in claiming they do not)
I don't attempt anything. You are reading your own agenda into my comments (once again). Your original conceit is that SSI hurts the poor. This woman is poor. This fund her keeping her in her apartment. She freely admits that she made her choices and that she honestly never expected to be alive this long. Your answer is to her is "Tough Sh1t"
with the money i'm going to have to pay into social security, and what my wife is going to have to pay in, we could easily retire by 55.
But the same could be said of any tax. Social Security isn't for your retirement. If you want to retire, match your Social Security dollars and invest them. Live leaner and don't worry about Social Security later.
But the same could be said of any tax. Social Security isn't for your retirement. If you want to retire, match your Social Security dollars and invest them. Live leaner and don't worry about Social Security later.
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Take care of yourself and everyone else and say nothing as the government continues to spend the yearly surplus.
Grab the vaseline and lube yourself up because you might as well prepare for the eventual rape.
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
Actually, she isn't at the moment. She fell in her bank last week and has spent the last week in Hospital, She has 2 more weeks of Madicaid paid for care, then that's it
I'm sorry for her misfortune, but honestly. She sounds like she is in better health at 91 than most folks are at 71. The thing no amount of money can by is more life longevity and good health. She certainly sounds like she has had her fair share of both. As for the Medicaid, you are complaining that it already doesn't give her enough, when it is giving her three weeks of free medical care. That three weeks will probably cost more than the college education of both of my children. The government is going into debt to provide it. She can be the sweetest old woman ever but she isn't worth that much apparently even to herself.
Quote:
She rents. She was married once in her twenties. She has no kids.
And I have the chance to buy property in LA at prices that people 60 years down the road will envy. That doesn't mean that I can just empty my sofa cushions and buy. If I could, then I would have that house with the "Mother-in-Law" place.
So the woman basically had no children to care for, had only a career and yet still couldn't provide for her own retire or buy herself a house. While I feel bad for her, her opportunities were certainly better than most and it appears she did nothing with them financially. Again I feel bad, but that doesn't mean I want to mortgage the future of my own children to pay for her neglect.
As for your own opportunities, consider how much more likely it is that you could buy said property if 13% of your income from every working day weren't disappearing. Back when she was paying into the system, the contribution was even lower. She was likely contributing 5-6% while having the opportunity to purchase housing that often didn't even require a mortgage at times since it was so inexpensive.
Quote:
I certainly would not try to direct how you feel about anything. That would seem to be a waste of time. Glad your mom is taken care of. I hope her health continues. I soppose you are going to tell her to do the right thing and return her Social Security, since she's obviously sitting pretty in her expensive condo.
My mother's only retirement planning likely will be her condo being so inexpensive. I have no doubt that even if she has social security, I will likely end up supporting her since she has no pension, 401k or anything else. I've shared with others on here that my mother is an alcoholic and her decision making ability pretty much reflected that fact. She only lucked out in being born at a certain time before certain parts of California were well developed. What she did required no special brains since her priorities were partying and drinking. As for giving back her Social Security, I would tell her entire generation to take much less and simply cut off the future payers. Most boomers are going to have to use the silver bullet retirement plan anyways since they spend like they are still a stupid 22 and have no retirement to speak of. I just don't want them burdening the next few generations with their selfishness yet again.
Quote:
I don't attempt anything. You are reading your own agenda into my comments (once again). Your original conceit is that SSI hurts the poor. This woman is poor. This fund her keeping her in her apartment. She freely admits that she made her choices and that she honestly never expected to be alive this long. Your answer is to her is "Tough Sh1t"
The fund is hurting her because it helped make her poor. If her contributions had been invested in even somewhat conservative stocks and been allowed to compound over time she would likely own the apartment building instead of renting a unit in it. You are totally blind to this. The government took her lifetime investment and squandered it. It now gives her back a pittance and she manages to survive in an apartment on it and worse yet have you and her be greatful for what they have done. Much like how the same $5000 house is now a $500,000 house, so would her savings. Instead she gets some measly amount of money from the government is content to be semi-destitute but safe.
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Take care of yourself and everyone else and say nothing as the government continues to spend the yearly surplus.
Grab the vaseline and lube yourself up because you might as well prepare for the eventual rape.
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
Ding, ding, ding.... the man wins a prize!
Retirement is not a right. If you didn't sow, you shouldn't reap. If you planted no seeds in your past, you shouldn't be amazed there is no crop to harvest in the future. Don't take the current and future generations and have them paying ever more Social Security tax (at 13% with no repayment of the already spent "trust fund" while needing even more future dollars) while still trying to create and invest in their own futures.
If one generation didn't plant a crop, you don't steal and eat the unplanted seeds from the next generation. That is what is happening and BR is hitting it right on the head in terms of correctness.
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
That is what is happening and BR is hitting it right on the head in terms of correctness.
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
Yeah but the problem with people of Bunge's ilk is that they believe that current generation of old people are owed retirement by current generation but the current and future generations aren't. You can't on one hand say that everyone who is collecting SS now deserves it but the current generation isn't allowed to feel like they deserve it in the future.
I don't like being raped by the government and I doubly don't like it when people tell me I'm not allowed to complain.
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
Retirement is not an odd assumption. It is something you get to do if you have saved enough money to not have to work when you are past a certain age. If you haven't then you work like everyone else and eventually you die like everyone else.
There are people who can retire at 20. There are others who will never be able to retire like your friend. It is not by any means a right.
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
They paid for the previous generation. Social Security is pay as you go. They are owed nothing. It would be like me claiming a welfare recipient owes me something. They provided a handout. Someone took it. It is gone. This is why I say it is dishonest to claim Social Security is some sort of investment, or fund. It is a scheme. They bought into the scheme. Their money is gone. Time to live with the consequences, especially since they voted in the liars in the first place.
They didn't pay their dues. They paid a tax that provided a benefit. Any language that obscures this fact contributes to the myth. Their money is gone. They are owed nothing.
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
Wait a second. That is entirely contrary to your argument about Social Security being for the current generation of old people. They didn't pay any dues. They deserve no credits and deserve no guarantee of having it. Hey, that's what you are saying about my generation. Why the double standard?
I personally think that once you stop working, you start dying.
BR, I think Peru[???---duh--check me out] weened the populace off their version of SS and were able to do it "right"---grandfathering in the preexisting clients.
They've paid their dues in more way than one. Just as we will. The difference is we can now prepare for a Social Security-less future whereas an elder can't prepare for the present. It's too late. So suck it up and fight to end the tax for future generations so your children and grand children don't have to deal with it.
Yeah but the problem with people of Bunge's ilk is that they believe that current generation of old people are owed retirement by current generation but the current and future generations aren't.
Don't tell me what I believe because it might make you look ignorant.
And this thread is starting to overlap. We're all posting at the same time so some responses might not look chronological.
Comments
instead she gets something like $300 a month to live on.
too many people looked at SS as some kind of retirement option, when it wasn't intended that way. now they're all screwed. and it's just getting worse.
with the money i'm going to have to pay into social security, and what my wife is going to have to pay in, we could easily retire by 55.
SS sucks, has been horribly mismanaged, and should be axed.
Originally posted by bunge
Because without their combined efforts you wouldn't have anything. They've contributed to this country to make it possible for you to do what you've done and they've sacrificed to make it easier, and in come cases simply possible when it wasn't before, for you to succeed.
I'm sorry but I profoundly disagree. Every age has it's good and bad people. I don't believe for a second that they did any more than live their lives and arrive at where they are now.
But since you quote the quote, you really should address the heart of it. That is EVERYONE really does care about money. They may lie to themselves and talk themselves into not getting financially intelligent, saving, investing, etc. They may do this out of fear or just a desire to leave the responsibility for the big decisions of their day to day life to others, be it a government, boss, or whomever. But when push comes to shove, everyone cares about money and what it provides in the end.
Social Security is nothing but the elderly writing themselves a nice intergenerational check. Why should young people be not only taxed at 13%, but be taking out ever more loans which have to be paid back with even more interest so that Grandma and Grandpa can have price subsidized medication (you bet I'll hit on Republicans alike on this issue) and retire in style. In addition to that those loans are going to get jobs their parents never could have done and are being chased to replace jobs that are being done for dollars a day in China, Mexico and India.
Talk about your generational burden. Hey sonny, pay for my retirement since I didn't earn enough with a nice factory manufactoring job to save for myself. Also pay for it with 60k of student loans from you AND your spouse so that you can both have decent paying jobs because my old job is being done in Mexico now.
The only thing the greatest generation (WWII) and the baby boomer generation have done is selfishly write themselves large checks from future generations. I don't care how well you lived your day to day life when you were 40,50 and even 60. It doesn't mean my children's children should be paying for it.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
What sob story? She is fully ambulatory and capable of working at 91.
Actually, she isn't at the moment. She fell in her bank last week and has spent the last week in Hospital, She has 2 more weeks of Madicaid paid for care, then that's it
Quote:
Dealing with real estate, there are plenty of homes sold with "mother-in-laws" smaller homes the size of a one bedroom apartment in the back. Many women of her age often help a younger child purchase one with the proceeds from their own home sale. (The unlucky husband, we don't have to consider his means of getting by, he is dead.) Consider the purchasing opportunities a 91 year old woman had that you will never have had. She was buying homes and land when Disneyland was still a bunch of fruit orchards. Any home purchased on land in LA when she was younger would have been worth many, many times more than she would have ever paid for it by the time she retired.
She rents. She was married once in her twenties. She has no kids.
And I have the chance to buy property in LA at prices that people 60 years down the road will envy. That doesn't mean that I can just empty my sofa cushions and buy. If I could, then I would have that house with the "Mother-in-Law" place.
Quote:
My own mother's previous home, the one I grew up in, would likely list for about $250k. She and my father purchased it for about $28k in 1977. If she had stayed in it. She would have three years left on the mortgage with payments of approximately $200 a month. (Lower than my electric bill most months.) Instead she sold it and purchased a beach front condo for $90k a number of years ago. That condo just appraised for $390k. She had the money and ability to purchase it back when they had just started building them. When the community was still "speculative" etc. I'll have no such opportunity. Should I feel sorry for her, or her for me?
I certainly would not try to direct how you feel about anything. That would seem to be a waste of time. Glad your mom is taken care of. I hope her health continues. I soppose you are going to tell her to do the right thing and return her Social Security, since she's obviously sitting pretty in her expensive condo.
Quote:
You say she decided not to marry a rich guy (more than once.) You attempt to make it appear that she cared nothing for money. I don't find it odd that people who care nothing about wealth, often end up having none. Why should I care about their lack of wealth when they themselves claim not to. (Or lie in claiming they do not)
I don't attempt anything. You are reading your own agenda into my comments (once again). Your original conceit is that SSI hurts the poor. This woman is poor. This fund her keeping her in her apartment. She freely admits that she made her choices and that she honestly never expected to be alive this long. Your answer is to her is "Tough Sh1t"
Glad you Mother is well set up.
Originally posted by alcimedes
with the money i'm going to have to pay into social security, and what my wife is going to have to pay in, we could easily retire by 55.
But the same could be said of any tax. Social Security isn't for your retirement. If you want to retire, match your Social Security dollars and invest them. Live leaner and don't worry about Social Security later.
Originally posted by bunge
But the same could be said of any tax. Social Security isn't for your retirement. If you want to retire, match your Social Security dollars and invest them. Live leaner and don't worry about Social Security later.
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Take care of yourself and everyone else and say nothing as the government continues to spend the yearly surplus.
Grab the vaseline and lube yourself up because you might as well prepare for the eventual rape.
Originally posted by BR
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Originally posted by bunge
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
Originally posted by tmp
Actually, she isn't at the moment. She fell in her bank last week and has spent the last week in Hospital, She has 2 more weeks of Madicaid paid for care, then that's it
I'm sorry for her misfortune, but honestly. She sounds like she is in better health at 91 than most folks are at 71. The thing no amount of money can by is more life longevity and good health. She certainly sounds like she has had her fair share of both. As for the Medicaid, you are complaining that it already doesn't give her enough, when it is giving her three weeks of free medical care. That three weeks will probably cost more than the college education of both of my children. The government is going into debt to provide it. She can be the sweetest old woman ever but she isn't worth that much apparently even to herself.
She rents. She was married once in her twenties. She has no kids.
And I have the chance to buy property in LA at prices that people 60 years down the road will envy. That doesn't mean that I can just empty my sofa cushions and buy. If I could, then I would have that house with the "Mother-in-Law" place.
So the woman basically had no children to care for, had only a career and yet still couldn't provide for her own retire or buy herself a house. While I feel bad for her, her opportunities were certainly better than most and it appears she did nothing with them financially. Again I feel bad, but that doesn't mean I want to mortgage the future of my own children to pay for her neglect.
As for your own opportunities, consider how much more likely it is that you could buy said property if 13% of your income from every working day weren't disappearing. Back when she was paying into the system, the contribution was even lower. She was likely contributing 5-6% while having the opportunity to purchase housing that often didn't even require a mortgage at times since it was so inexpensive.
I certainly would not try to direct how you feel about anything. That would seem to be a waste of time. Glad your mom is taken care of. I hope her health continues. I soppose you are going to tell her to do the right thing and return her Social Security, since she's obviously sitting pretty in her expensive condo.
My mother's only retirement planning likely will be her condo being so inexpensive. I have no doubt that even if she has social security, I will likely end up supporting her since she has no pension, 401k or anything else. I've shared with others on here that my mother is an alcoholic and her decision making ability pretty much reflected that fact. She only lucked out in being born at a certain time before certain parts of California were well developed. What she did required no special brains since her priorities were partying and drinking. As for giving back her Social Security, I would tell her entire generation to take much less and simply cut off the future payers. Most boomers are going to have to use the silver bullet retirement plan anyways since they spend like they are still a stupid 22 and have no retirement to speak of. I just don't want them burdening the next few generations with their selfishness yet again.
I don't attempt anything. You are reading your own agenda into my comments (once again). Your original conceit is that SSI hurts the poor. This woman is poor. This fund her keeping her in her apartment. She freely admits that she made her choices and that she honestly never expected to be alive this long. Your answer is to her is "Tough Sh1t"
The fund is hurting her because it helped make her poor. If her contributions had been invested in even somewhat conservative stocks and been allowed to compound over time she would likely own the apartment building instead of renting a unit in it. You are totally blind to this. The government took her lifetime investment and squandered it. It now gives her back a pittance and she manages to survive in an apartment on it and worse yet have you and her be greatful for what they have done. Much like how the same $5000 house is now a $500,000 house, so would her savings. Instead she gets some measly amount of money from the government is content to be semi-destitute but safe.
Nick
Originally posted by BR
Translation: Take personal responsibility and secure your own retirement not knowing if future generations will be able to support you but continue to support the current generation.
Take care of yourself and everyone else and say nothing as the government continues to spend the yearly surplus.
Grab the vaseline and lube yourself up because you might as well prepare for the eventual rape.
Originally posted by BR
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
Ding, ding, ding.... the man wins a prize!
Retirement is not a right. If you didn't sow, you shouldn't reap. If you planted no seeds in your past, you shouldn't be amazed there is no crop to harvest in the future. Don't take the current and future generations and have them paying ever more Social Security tax (at 13% with no repayment of the already spent "trust fund" while needing even more future dollars) while still trying to create and invest in their own futures.
If one generation didn't plant a crop, you don't steal and eat the unplanted seeds from the next generation. That is what is happening and BR is hitting it right on the head in terms of correctness.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Retirement is not a right.
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
Originally posted by trumptman
That is what is happening and BR is hitting it right on the head in terms of correctness.
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
Originally posted by BR
That same ridiculous quote can be turned right back against your position. Hey old people, quit asking what the country can do for you. Do something good for your country and take care of yourselves so our younger generations don't have to pay out their ass in SS taxes.
You're just lazy.
Originally posted by dmz
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
Yeah but the problem with people of Bunge's ilk is that they believe that current generation of old people are owed retirement by current generation but the current and future generations aren't. You can't on one hand say that everyone who is collecting SS now deserves it but the current generation isn't allowed to feel like they deserve it in the future.
I don't like being raped by the government and I doubly don't like it when people tell me I'm not allowed to complain.
Originally posted by dmz
Retirement is an odd asumption that we live with. You have to start with the assumption that either you bought this right or that society at large owes this to you.
Retirement is not an odd assumption. It is something you get to do if you have saved enough money to not have to work when you are past a certain age. If you haven't then you work like everyone else and eventually you die like everyone else.
There are people who can retire at 20. There are others who will never be able to retire like your friend. It is not by any means a right.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
They paid for the previous generation. Social Security is pay as you go. They are owed nothing. It would be like me claiming a welfare recipient owes me something. They provided a handout. Someone took it. It is gone. This is why I say it is dishonest to claim Social Security is some sort of investment, or fund. It is a scheme. They bought into the scheme. Their money is gone. Time to live with the consequences, especially since they voted in the liars in the first place.
They didn't pay their dues. They paid a tax that provided a benefit. Any language that obscures this fact contributes to the myth. Their money is gone. They are owed nothing.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
You guys are forgetting that they've already paid a bunch in Social Security. They paid this tax before you were born. They've paid their dues. You're just blind to it.
Wait a second. That is entirely contrary to your argument about Social Security being for the current generation of old people. They didn't pay any dues. They deserve no credits and deserve no guarantee of having it. Hey, that's what you are saying about my generation. Why the double standard?
BR, I think Peru[???---duh--check me out] weened the populace off their version of SS and were able to do it "right"---grandfathering in the preexisting clients.
Quit being greedy lazy *****.
Originally posted by BR
I don't like being raped by the government and I doubly don't like it when people tell me I'm not allowed to complain.
Complain all you want. I certainly don't give a shit.
Originally posted by BR
Yeah but the problem with people of Bunge's ilk is that they believe that current generation of old people are owed retirement by current generation but the current and future generations aren't.
Don't tell me what I believe because it might make you look ignorant.
And this thread is starting to overlap. We're all posting at the same time so some responses might not look chronological.