Stealing the momentum from MS Longhorn

13»

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 57
    actually a better way to put it is Pixar-ization. i'm not sure how this is going to progress the functionality of the Mac Os, but there is the eventual possibility (and i'm really pushing the limits here) that the Os could be given a greater emotional depth. i'd have to say that this has been the plan since Steve Jobs came back to Apple. Mac products are marketed as being things with 'personality', as opposed to being machines. iMacs are animistic... and soon will the Os.



    How this will influence functionality i don't know. but there might be a psychological aspect being exploited in the design.



    lets see if Longhorn will attempt the same..
  • Reply 42 of 57
    phroggyphroggy Posts: 63member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ghiangelo

    Mac products are marketed as being things with 'personality', as opposed to being machines.

    ...

    lets see if Longhorn will attempt the same..




    Wasn't that called 'Clippy'?
  • Reply 43 of 57
    xoolxool Posts: 2,460member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by quagmire

    I think what apple should do is to come out with totally redesigned OS's each time windows come out with new OS's which look like the current mac os's. Eventually MS would get sick of playing catch up and start to make its own OS and stop copying Macs.



    Be sure to share that one with the underpants gnomes.
  • Reply 44 of 57
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BuonRotto

    what are the beneficial side effects of this technology? That's not to doubt its usefulness, I'm interested in how people figure out how to take advantage of this stuff in a way that actually makes the user's experience easier or delivers more options to them.



    I was thinking, if an OS is vector-based, wouldn't it then be (relatively) easy to do wireless displays?
  • Reply 45 of 57
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Not necessarily. It depends on what's being drawn, as vector work does follow the law of diminishing returns. As the vector art gets more complex, it becomes less advantageous to use it until it actually requires more power (speed, storage, margin of error) to deal with it. Not that most of what people would need or use would have this problem, just that some environments would be problematic just as our raster-based routines are now. It also depends on the chips that are doing the number crunching. GPUs would probably have to evolve a bit before it was practical, so hardware I imagine might be the weak link in the chain here unless you sacrifice CPU for screen drawing again. But practically speaking, it would generally be advantageous to go to vector-driven screen drawing, especially in the long-run.



    Wireless displays, as MS's poor example on the market shows, shouldn't be pushing the screen data across the air, they should be pushing the raw data, and the UI should be locally interpreting that. I understand that Unix got this right years ago. I imagine OS X could expand on this tech as an API/framework relatively easily with Quartz or whatever, if Apple had this as a priority. I don't know all the details, so I could be wrong, but that was my impression.



    Again, I'm not arguing against vector-based UIs. I think they're inevitable and a Good Thing?. I'm just curious to see how Apple and MS would really change their UIs in light of this technology, as their UIs are sort of diverging anyway. (Well, they have plenty of similar elements but they're used in increasingly different ways.) I wish I thought of Exposé, but I'm either not very talented in thinking of this stuff, or I don't have enough time to connect the dots.
  • Reply 46 of 57
    Quote:

    Originally posted by macanoid?

    Microsoft has indeed acquired Creature House, mainly for this application :: http://www.creaturehouse.com/lcels.htm. Rumour has it they will be using this for their 'Quatz' version of the graphics layer, and also they are working on their own (OS) integrated version of flash together with Macromedia. Can't quite remember where I read all this but if true it's a scary thought. I'll mean all future flash content creation will be tied to the PC platform or that some specific flash stuff will only be playable on a PC.



    Thanks for that tip!



    I am also a bit worried that MS is going to do some major thunder stealing in the next couple of years. I have done some reading on the Aero GUI that Longhorn will have (very similar to Quartz) and there are some indications that Aero will do some damage to both Macromedia and Adobe. I read a couple of tutorials on programming small applications with MS' new GUI language (XML based, extremely easy) and noted that MS is aiming on "getting out of the browser" with the new language and applications. They already have demonstrations of web driven applications that don't need a browser. The direction they're taking is obvious, in that they want to create a new lock-in for Windows, where, because the new applications and protocol will only run on Windows, they will hope to drive developers away from using browser based web applications. The web applications will tie in very nicely with the new "sidebar-lets" (small docklet type applications in the Longhorn sidebar).



    Added to this is MS' new vector language for creating Flash type applications. Macromedia is apparently very worried that this will kill flash in the long run (MS has both the money and the time to persist for long enough until the new language becomes a standard). Macromedia has in the past year, tried to counter this with a version of Flas that allows developers to create web based flash applications that do not run in a browser. It has, sadly, been a dismal failure because most companies do not want to spend the money on developing both a browser based application and a local Flash version. Seeing that MS has purchased the company that owns Expression means that MS will, once again, try to enter the content creation market. I remember that MS had an Expression type of vector paint programme in MS Office 2000, but one that ran so slowly that it was next to useless (It was removed in officeXP). This could be their number two try.



    In all probability, MS' attempt to kill yet another competitor will not be entirely successful. Flash has become a standard over the years and the tens of thousands of Flash developers are not going to switch over just because MS says so. The reason MS does these things is because MS wants to literally own everything. The desktop OS, the server OS, productivity apps, developer tools, content creation apps, cellphones, PDAs, game consoles, TV software, car software, everything. Every last thing literally. Kind of sick.



    Also, I think Apple has been sleeping in this sector. Apple could have and should have bought Expression and Painter (from Corel) and perhaps even the Mac source code for Corel Draw and Corel Paint, since those have been discontinued. Adobe's and Macromedia's less than stellar Mac OSX versions of their applications and their focus on Windows might come back to haunt them when MS brings out its own content creation applications, but by that time it might simply be too late for the Mac content creation market.



    Sorry if I sound like a doomsayer, but the ipod is not going to save the OSX platform, and I really love this OS. I would work and have worked on Windows if I had to, but I dislike it intensely.
  • Reply 47 of 57
    Quote:

    Originally posted by theolein

    But the ipod is not going to save the OSX platform.



    Great post and one that I fully agree with, particularly this bit! I don't think Apple is doomed, especially since it has some outstanding applications as Final Cut, Logic, iApps and Shake, but Apple's market really needs to grow beyond what it is now. I'd like to see it back at a healthy 10%!
  • Reply 48 of 57
    murkmurk Posts: 935member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by macanoid?

    Microsoft has indeed acquired Creature House, mainly for this application :: http://www.creaturehouse.com/lcels.htm. Rumour has it they will be using this for their 'Quatz' version of the graphics layer, and also they are working on their own (OS) integrated version of flash together with Macromedia. Can't quite remember where I read all this but if true it's a scary thought. I'll mean all future flash content creation will be tied to the PC platform or that some specific flash stuff will only be playable on a PC.



    By the way, you can apparently download Creature House's Expression 3 for free. Adobe's gotta love that. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en
  • Reply 49 of 57
    Quote:

    Originally posted by murk

    By the way, you can apparently download Creature House's Expression 3 for free. Adobe's gotta love that. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en



    Thanks! Busy downloading now. For MS to give something like this away for free means that it's either End Of Life or that the next versions will be PC only. I somehow don't think that Adobe will care much because Expression, originally by the Metacreations, the same people that made Corel Painter and Kai's Powertools.



    Somewhat offtopic: that was one sadsack of a company, Metacreations. They had the list of the most innovative graphics software around, including Painter, Expression, Poser, Bryce, and others and due to poor marketing and high prices lost it all. Damn sad.
  • Reply 50 of 57
    Quote:

    Originally posted by theolein





    Also, I think Apple has been sleeping in this sector. Apple could have and should have bought Expression and Painter (from Corel) and perhaps even the Mac source code for Corel Draw and Corel Paint, since those have been discontinued. Adobe's and Macromedia's less than stellar Mac OSX versions of their applications and their focus on Windows might come back to haunt them when MS brings out its own content creation applications, but by that time it might simply be too late for the Mac content creation market.





    Apple looks to be wanting to get into the film and video sector more. soon Apple will be selling 3D software of some sort. Steve probably can't wait to make Pixar a 100% Mac creation studio. and besides, where's the Hollywood glamour in Photo-Paint? not to mention Painter (which happens to be the greatest digital creation app for the price) is basically still small potatoes and ironically gaining greater PC share.



    i was emailed a questionaire from Corel asking questions about Painter. essentially it was testing to see if the customer base would accept a price increase. personally if Corel could put more money into Painter and make it even better i'd have no problem paying more for it. but the customer base currently is not up to paying more. this alone would deter Apple from considering it as an app in their arsenal.
  • Reply 51 of 57
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:

    Be sure to share that one with the underpants gnomes.



    Step 1: Steal underpants. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!



    8)



    I think MS already got tired. XP just looks stupid. Longhorn is like Stupid^2
  • Reply 52 of 57
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by theolein

    Thanks! Busy downloading now. For MS to give something like this away for free means that it's either End Of Life or that the next versions will be PC only.



    It's like what Scott McNealy always says: with Microsoft, the first hit is always free. Actually, I think it's two things: 1. it will be EOLed for Macs, and 2. I think someday it might not be a standalone product for PCs either.
  • Reply 53 of 57
    Definitely not for 10.4, but apple should be throwing in huge research into a rudimentary AI engine so when they have the speech engine perfected (both ways, interpretation and speaking) you can just talk to your computer from across the room to get it to do stuff for you.(search for stuff, play media files, get/read email, write as you dictate, etc)
  • Reply 54 of 57
    hypoluxahypoluxa Posts: 694member
    This surprised me a little, MS is so f*&(&^! blatantly unoriginal that they even copied the look of the OSX dock app! gimmie a friggin break! Apple really needs to sue their asses again..

    http://pcdesktops.emuunlim.com/pictu...3/longhorn.jpg
  • Reply 55 of 57
    If anything, Apple will have to take Longhorn seriously and invest in some real breakthrough technologies like vector UI's, meta-data driven file system, compositing system handled completely by the GPU etc.



    I think Apple has proved they are creative enough to do it (Expose anyone?), they just have to go for the jugular by the time Longhorn gets here.
  • Reply 56 of 57
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    BuonRotto: UNIX, via X11, was indeed able to support a remote GUI over 9600BAUD a good decade ago. But in order to do that it makes a number of assumptions (e.g.: Everything is a rectangle) that make it too simple and unsophisticated to handle remote Quartz.



    The good news is that, basically, all Apple has to do is make the WindowServer capable of serving more than one session at a time and they're there. They can stream PDF - which, after all, is just a bunch of instructions on how to draw something that just happens to be vector-heavy and a container format besides.



    Now, then:



    Quote:

    Originally posted by theolein

    [A .NET tutorial noted that] MS is aiming on "getting out of the browser" with the new language and applications. They already have demonstrations of web driven applications that don't need a browser.



    You mean, like iTMS? That's XML driven as well. WebObjects has done the distributed-app thing for something like 15 years now.



    Quote:

    The direction they're taking is obvious, in that they want to create a new lock-in for Windows, where, because the new applications and protocol will only run on Windows, they will hope to drive developers away from using browser based web applications. The web applications will tie in very nicely with the new "sidebar-lets" (small docklet type applications in the Longhorn sidebar).



    The MS tie-in is inevitable, of course, but In and of itself, getting out of the browser is not a bad thing. Browsers are thoroughly mediocre clients. it's worth noting that MS is not breaking new ground here. Apple's already got a working, scaled-up example of this sort of application (iTMS/iTunes), the application development and server software to run it, and the classes in the client OS to efficiently and transparently parse the streamed XML.



    Quote:

    Added to this is MS' new vector language for creating Flash type applications.



    SVG just doesn't get any love, does it?



    The Microsoft model of competition is basically to put a competitor under immense (psychological) pressure, and wait for them to crack and make a mistake. If you look at the competitors they've won over - WordPerfect, Netscape, Apple, Borland - they all panicked and did something phenomenally stupid at exactly the wrong time, or else they made a whole series of mistakes that cost them. When they were weakened, MS moved in. (Think about it: Why did Windows 95 marginalize the Mac? It was a complete piece of crap that would have killed any other company! Answer: System 7.5.0)



    The key to beating MS is not to be intimidated by their size, their money, their patience, or Bill's proficiency at hardball. The companies that can stay focused do better (unless they're so small that MS can just crush them). If you've got something tight enough to weather Microsoft's version 3, your chances are as good as they're going to be.



    Quote:

    In all probability, MS' attempt to kill yet another competitor will not be entirely successful. Flash has become a standard over the years and the tens of thousands of Flash developers are not going to switch over just because MS says so.



    MS probably won't "compete" feature for feature, at least not until version 3. They'll "compete" in terms of integration with Windows (performance, tight linking with other Windows APIs) and licensing (how much does Macromedia charge for pro Flash authoring? MS will give the tool away).



    Quote:

    Also, I think Apple has been sleeping in this sector. Apple could have and should have bought Expression and Painter (from Corel) and perhaps even the Mac source code for Corel Draw and Corel Paint, since those have been discontinued.



    I don't know if Apple's ready to do that, and I don't know if Corel Draw/Corel Paint would be the best candidates to start from anyway. They have the developers of TIFFany on board, and they have a whole flock of mathematicians who could not only muster the necessary filters, but who could AltiVec-optimize them within an inch of their lives.



    The question is, why? Apple might actually be waiting for Adobe to come running back to the Mac in earnest for all we know, precisely because Apple has a great platform for their apps and they aren't trying to eat Adobe's lunch.



    Quote:

    Sorry if I sound like a doomsayer, but the ipod is not going to save the OSX platform, and I really love this OS. I would work and have worked on Windows if I had to, but I dislike it intensely.



    I'm really not worried about OS X. At all. The basic technologies are sound, the strategies are good (and often much more subtle than MS is), a lot of the stuff MS is promising, Apple is delivering now, the rate of progress on OS X is unprecedented and the direction of progress is heartening.



    Also Apple, unlike Microsoft, don't have to dive into the low-level system code that everything depends on and completely reengineer it, breaking everything, so that it's not prey to every bored 13 year old with a virus building program and broadband. They've got a solid foundation, so they can focus on building up.
  • Reply 57 of 57
    maccrazymaccrazy Posts: 2,658member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Moogs

    I suspect there may not be a 10.5, but rather an OS XI. I think a major overhaul and marketing change every 4-5 years is likely going forward. I also don't think Apple will play up comparisons to Longhorn that much, even if the comparisons favor OS XI (or whatever they call it).



    History shows us that having the superior system has never meant having the superior ad campaign. What's more, OS X is not to the point yet where Apple is going to start trying to win back the OS war. It's already over. Until we get back up around maybe 10 or 12%, it's not even worth trying to fight with that mindset.



    Better to just keep adding enough marketshare to make Apple more and more profitable, so they can continue to innovate and make better products "for the rest of us". I liken it to good music. I know what's good and what's crap. I don't buy my music based on what's most popular, just like I have never bought my computer based on what's popular.



    Let the sheep have their Windows. I couldn't care less.




    Call me elitist, but I like being in the minority. And I never want Mac to have a market lead in computers, make them work, make them innovate, if Mac have 50%+ they products they created would be worse.



    ?Truth is always in the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority as a rule is formed of those who really have an opinion, whilst the strength of the majority is illusory, formed by the gang who have no opinion.' Kierkegaard



    Oh, why don;t Apple make AppleWorks worth speaking about and screw M$ over by advertising their amazing OS. They have the iPoid on their side, I think it might work, but they need to keep the professional users, so they should concentrate on G5s first!
Sign In or Register to comment.