Before anyone jumps down my throat in a typical assholeish AI rage. TAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS. I'm not saying this is right or wrong I just read it and found it interesting. They say the wall means that the army doesn't have to go into Jenin as much as before and as such life is getting more normal. Nothing about the terrorists (ooops I mean freedom fighters ) moving out though like I posted above.
Fair enough. The ariticle is probably right. In the sense that were checkpoints are removed and the wall follows the pre 67 borders, life will improve. The checkpoints (and battlegrounds) have moved. Other places will find themselves in the tough-spot.
Life is probably better when you're moved from custody to jail as well, but the fact is your still just as much in jail, only being in more "permanent"...
This is not the fault of the United States. We've made many critical statements of Israel. We've made many critical statements of the Palestinians.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
hearing this from you is actually quite comforting.
I thought we were talking about Israel and Palestine?
The US signed NAFTA so they have to abide by NAFTA. No controversy there.
The US signed the Geneva accord too, right?
We were talking about Israel, palestine, the US and international law.
More specifically the US approval and help in Israels blatant disregard of international law.
These two nations are continuously setting themselves outside the rules and agreements ment to regulate the affairs between nations.
Yet (in the case of the US) it seems to always be "because of other nations breaches of international law". (iraq, iran and north korea at the moment. With Syria and some unfortunate others on the "to do" list.)
It's quite ironical that the US didn't blink in signing NAFTA, and giving away jurisdictional power, because its all about business and trade. But when it comes to human rights, landmines, and international crimes, it's a whole different story. It's just an incredible double standard.
This is not the fault of the United States. We've made many critical statements of Israel. We've made many critical statements of the Palestinians.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
I agree with almost all of this. I am only going to say that I would guess that 95%+ of the people don't really want to push Israel into the sea. If they did, they probably would march on Israel since they outnumber them. But you're right, the hard-core on both sides are impossible.
That was an account I set up for some cry babies here. Everyone feel free to use it.
Imagine if New Jersey were blowing up busses in Manhattan, killing woman and children, over Ellis Island?
Oh no wait we don?t want to confront those violations of ?international law?. Only the violations the Jews commit. OOOps there I go again I mean Israelis.
I haven't read beyond this post yet, but I want to post my opinion:
I agree that blowing up busses etc is horrible and should be dealt with.
I actually think that Rentisis deserved what he got . . . why is his death worse than the lowly gunners on the streets?!?!?
But that doesn't make the settlements legal or good of wise for Israel . . . they should go and are an embarrassment to any 'civilized' country.
This is not the fault of the United States. We've made many critical statements of Israel. We've made many critical statements of the Palestinians.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
Agreed...very sensible and balanced post.
But...Israel feels it can do literally anything, since they have unconditional default US support, as well as possessing the 4th largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, as well as having chemical and biological weapons. Under that umbrella, to counter Yasser Arafat's PLO, they (Mossad) created Hamas in "divide and conquer" maneuver. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Article:
Quote:
Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat?s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."
The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel?s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel?s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.
In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (?uprising?) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.
Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin?s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.
The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.
Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.
Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.
The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State. And in this regard, Hamas and Ariel Sharon, see eye to eye; they are exactly on the same wave length.
One more example of blowback...where ordinary Israeli people have suffered as a result of shortsighted politicians' (insane) actions.
You know the world isn't so black and white SJO. Even if if that university prof is correct it doesn't mean that Israel "created" what they have today. I think the anti-Israel (ooops I mean anti-Semitic) arab muslim world helped to make Hamas what it is today.
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
Before anyone jumps down my throat in a typical assholeish AI rage. TAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS. I'm not saying this is right or wrong I just read it and found it interesting. They say the wall means that the army doesn't have to go into Jenin as much as before and as such life is getting more normal. Nothing about the terrorists (ooops I mean freedom fighters
'Suicide-Bombing Capital' Thrives As New Barrier Nears Completion
Fair enough. The ariticle is probably right. In the sense that were checkpoints are removed and the wall follows the pre 67 borders, life will improve. The checkpoints (and battlegrounds) have moved. Other places will find themselves in the tough-spot.
Life is probably better when you're moved from custody to jail as well, but the fact is your still just as much in jail, only being in more "permanent"...
There is no doubt that Sharon wants to creat a state of anarchy in Gaza as he retreates from the place.
My guess is that the now weakened but more popular Hamas will seek help from outside help to escalate their millitary campaign.
Originally posted by Scott
In the real world "international law" won?t be enforeced on all parties involved. So find a different solution.
International Law just made itself relevant again... I guess nobody saw that one comming...
Israel kills new head of Hamas
Correct me if I am wrong, New!
Originally posted by KANE
What Anders... I mean New _really_ ment to link (I think) was this article:
Israel kills new head of Hamas
Correct me if I am wrong, New!
uh? why don't you read three posts above this one? edit: insult removed.
Originally posted by New
uh? why don't you read three posts above this one? You can count that far right...?
I am sorry for trying to help you out, New. I will not make that mistake again.
The link is right, it's about international law.
Originally posted by New
International Law just made itself relevant again... I guess nobody saw that one comming...
And that has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
Originally posted by Scott
And that has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine.
but it has eveything to do with international law.
Originally posted by SDW2001
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
hearing this from you is actually quite comforting.
Originally posted by New
but it has eveything to do with international law.
I don't understand your point.
Originally posted by Scott
I don't understand your point.
We have had this topic up for debate here a lot in the past.
You keep on whining about how international law is irrelevant. I thought this was interesting in that relation.
As eveything is more internationalized, the US will eventually have to accept higher international jurisdiction. There is simply no way around it.
The US signed NAFTA so they have to abide by NAFTA. No controversy there.
Originally posted by Scott
I thought we were talking about Israel and Palestine?
The US signed NAFTA so they have to abide by NAFTA. No controversy there.
The US signed the Geneva accord too, right?
We were talking about Israel, palestine, the US and international law.
More specifically the US approval and help in Israels blatant disregard of international law.
These two nations are continuously setting themselves outside the rules and agreements ment to regulate the affairs between nations.
Yet (in the case of the US) it seems to always be "because of other nations breaches of international law". (iraq, iran and north korea at the moment. With Syria and some unfortunate others on the "to do" list.)
It's quite ironical that the US didn't blink in signing NAFTA, and giving away jurisdictional power, because its all about business and trade. But when it comes to human rights, landmines, and international crimes, it's a whole different story. It's just an incredible double standard.
Why is NAFTA more important than UN, Scott?
Originally posted by SDW2001
This is not the fault of the United States. We've made many critical statements of Israel. We've made many critical statements of the Palestinians.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
I agree with almost all of this. I am only going to say that I would guess that 95%+ of the people don't really want to push Israel into the sea. If they did, they probably would march on Israel since they outnumber them. But you're right, the hard-core on both sides are impossible.
Originally posted by Scott
That was an account I set up for some cry babies here. Everyone feel free to use it.
Imagine if New Jersey were blowing up busses in Manhattan, killing woman and children, over Ellis Island?
Oh no wait we don?t want to confront those violations of ?international law?. Only the violations the Jews commit. OOOps there I go again I mean Israelis
I haven't read beyond this post yet, but I want to post my opinion:
I agree that blowing up busses etc is horrible and should be dealt with.
I actually think that Rentisis deserved what he got . . . why is his death worse than the lowly gunners on the streets?!?!?
But that doesn't make the settlements legal or good of wise for Israel . . . they should go and are an embarrassment to any 'civilized' country.
Originally posted by SDW2001
This is not the fault of the United States. We've made many critical statements of Israel. We've made many critical statements of the Palestinians.
We've offered to mediate. We've supported Israel's right to exist, adn proposed a Palestinian state. We've helped to lay out a plans, actually many plans for peace. These have all failed.
Why? The actions of both parties are flawed. That's why. However, we're going to err on the side of Israel, mostly because they have democratic government. Quite frankly, they have also (over the years) shown more willingness to negotiate. In 1995 I believe, Arafat was offered 95% of what we wanted by Ehud Barak. He rejected the offer. Many Palestinians want "total victory" over Israel. In other words, they want Israel pushed into the sea. How does one negotiate with that?
This being said, Israel's actions (and Sharon's in particular) are, in a word, stupid. They must either go to war or not. Withdraw, or don't. Israel needs to completely withdraw and end the policy of targeted assasination, bulldozing, missle strikes, curfews, etc. Once a state is established...and if the attacks continue, then Israel can go to war with full moral justification.
Oh, and Sharon is getting fatter. Just thought I'd mention that.
Agreed...very sensible and balanced post.
But...Israel feels it can do literally anything, since they have unconditional default US support, as well as possessing the 4th largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, as well as having chemical and biological weapons. Under that umbrella, to counter Yasser Arafat's PLO, they (Mossad) created Hamas in "divide and conquer" maneuver. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Article:
Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat?s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."
The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel?s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel?s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.
In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (?uprising?) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.
Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin?s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.
The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.
Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.
Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.
The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State. And in this regard, Hamas and Ariel Sharon, see eye to eye; they are exactly on the same wave length.
One more example of blowback...where ordinary Israeli people have suffered as a result of shortsighted politicians' (insane) actions.