Oh certainly there's something to discuss my friend!
There's this article on CNN, the sound of the other shoe falling on this topic.
Men who proudly served in Vietnam with John Kerry are beginning to come forward to dispute his allegations of "atrocities" committed by that group. They've always felt that Mr. Kerry maligned their characters for political gain and apparently they're ready to challenge him.
An incensed Nixon encouraged O'Neill, who was awarded two Bronze Stars in Vietnam, to challenge Kerry, which he did in a debate on the "Dick Cavett Show."
At one point during the heated exchange, O'Neill, an admiral's son, demanded Kerry explain why, if he saw war crimes taking place, "you didn't do something about them."
Since then, O'Neill has largely remained out of the spotlight as Kerry's political star rose in Massachusetts and then nationally, turning down what he said were more than 50 requests -- many from Kerry's political opponents -- to come forward on television.
"I haven't been on television in many, many years. I had very little political involvement," said O'Neill, who described himself as a political Independent in a phone interview last month with the Houston Chronicle.
But O'Neill said Tuesday that he and the others who served with Kerry -- who "would much rather have nothing to do with this" -- feel they have "no choice" but to come forward, which he said would dispel the notion that Vietnam veterans as a group are supportive of Kerry's candidacy.
"We were there, we know the truth, and we know that this guy's unfit to be commander-in-chief," said O'Neill, who took over command of Kerry's boat after he left. "I think you'll find that people are very, very angry at John Kerry. They remember his career in Vietnam as a short, controversial one, and they believe that only Hollywood could turn this guy into a war hero."
Kerry can handle a few antagonists from his past (who happen to hold a 30-year grudge more than anything else.) I wouldn't judge fellow soldiers' perceptions of Kerry based on one or two... eh. My heart's really not in this fight. We have one candidate who served (arguably) in the guard through political connections and nepotism, and another who won 3 purple hearts in Vietnam, came back to the United States and led the anti-war movement. Bad things happened in Vietnam. I don't think we need to establish that. Perhaps the word atrocities does not reflect well on the unit, but would anyone defend some of things they did as ethical- even for wartime?
At least a few people seem to remember Kerry showing up to do his duty.
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
Why don't you guys actually respond to a post rather than coming back with a lame and quippy one-liner? Perhaps you find the truth disquieting? Once again we see a response that can only be categorized as being decidedly WEAK SAUCE...
Try disproving what I said just once. Or is that too much work for you?
There is one other difference between Kerry and Bush. Kerry is running as the Vietnam War hero who did his duty when asked. When you make an issue like this a central theme of a presidential campaign and when you basically say that your opponent shirked his responsibility to serve his country when he had the opportunity one has every right to examine his claims. And when you look at his record in depth and listen to what people such as former commanders who knew him had to say one has to ask some tough questions about the circumstances in which he attained his "hero" status. Bush never claimed to be a hero - he did his duty as a fighter pilot in the Air National Guard and it was the Democrats who chose to make his service an issue. Despite years of thorough examination nobody has ever been able to prove he received preferential treatment to get his spot in the National Guard and nobody has ever been able to prove that Bush was AWOL despite what that idiot Terry McAuliffe has claimed on numerous ocasions. The record does not show that at all. In fact, what his record does show is superior performance as a skilled pilot.
Bush has NEVER questioned Kerry's patriotism. He in fact has acknowledged Kerry's Vietnam service and he has publicly thanked him for it. But what Bush has done is question Kerry's voting record in the Senate and if that record indicates weak support for this country's national defense (and his record does show that is the case) than that is fair game. That is not questioning a man's patriotism - it is questioning his judgement and those are two separate issues. This "they are attacking my patriotism" is just another red herring thrown up by the Democrats to cloud the issue. Kerry's voting record and his habit of waffling on the most important issues facing this nation today are very troubling things and it is fair that Bush bring them to the light of day so voters can see that they have a clear choice. Bush stands on principle and he does not waffle on the issues. Kerry on the other hand has made it clear that he cannot be trusted to keep his word and that is a big deal when you are dealing with issues like national security and when we put our credibility on the line with other nations. The world needs to know that the U.S. will stand by their word and not cut and run when things get a little tough. This idea that war and nation-building are easy things is pure nonsense. Bush never said that Iraq was going to be an easy road - nothing worth doing ever is. But if we stay the course and see things through then the reward for doing so in the end will be great. It is probably at least a five year process and it would be wise to look at the merits of the operation at that point. We are only a year in to this thing and much progress already has been made. There is a lot still to do and we must see to it that we see it through to a successful conclusion.
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
Here's a rebuttal...
The question is not whether he served, which everyone admits, but whether he fulfilled his commitment, which is certainly debatable (but not necessarily the thread topic). Also, the government spent millions of dollars to train Bush to fly an aircraft... that was being phased out at the time. As if joining the National Guard wasn't enough of a guarantee against service in Vietnam, training on obsolete aircraft guaranteed he wouldn't. Not serving in the armed forces doesn't preclude criticism of the armed forces either...
On the supposedly dubious circumstances of John Kerry's Purple Heart awards, I'm not sure how anyone can claim his injuries were not real. Is that what you claim? Regardless, Army policy was 3 Purple Hearts and you're out. John Kerry was fortunate to get out of Vietnam, a frighteningly pointless experience that later informed his opposition to the war.
Why don't you guys actually respond to a post rather than coming back with a lame and quippy one-liner? Perhaps you find the truth disquieting? Once again we see a response that can only be categorized as being decidedly WEAK SAUCE...
Try disproving what I said just once. Or is that too much work for you?
I need to look up where I read it but there were servicemen who had limbs blown off who never received a Purple Heart.
I will get back with you all on that.
What do you mean by "taking full advantage of that policy?" Isn't the only advantage you could take necessarily "full" since soliders must leave active combat in Vietnam? (I'm assuming they couldn't stay even they wanted to. Correct me if I'm wrong.) That's a rhetorically sloppy phrasing, msantti, if I understand things correctly.
What do you mean by "taking full advantage of that policy?" Isn't the only advantage you could take necessarily "full" since soliders must leave active combat in Vietnam? (I'm assuming they couldn't stay even they wanted to. Correct me if I'm wrong.) That's a rhetorically sloppy phrasing, msantti, if I understand things correctly.
No see . . . you don't get it shawn . . . Bush was nowhere to be found . . . but Kerry, having to leave, "took advantage of" the military's policy.
There is no partisan bias in such an interpretation . . .naw . . . just pure rational thinking . . .
Bush took advantagge of everybody and Kerry served his time for not one, not two but three injuries on the field of combat
. . . .and can you believe making deal of the 'heroism' of flying an airplane that is old!!!! HAHAHA!
I still can't stop laughing when I think of that attempt at rationalization!!
Well . . . not only that, he didn't even fly it that much . . . he was working 'elsewhere' instead!!
Anybody know that Creedance Clearwater song called: "Fortunate Son" ?
John Kerry could have been a Fortunate Son, but he chose doing something with his life for positive social change. He, like Howard Dean, recognized the social responsibility of upper-class membership- eschewing the allure of hegemony. Can we say nothing about Bush but his preternatural family obsession with maintaining power- coming from the family at the center of the military and industrial complex? What did he do in his youth-- especially while John Kerry was testifying in front of Congress, famously asking "How do you ask a man to be last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to die for a mistake?" The contrast should chill anyone.
He, like Howard Dean, recognized the social responsibility of upper-class membership...
Nothing says love and equality like the Noblesse Oblige.
It's insulting. A president is not the answer, from either party. I don't want a politician who feels he is doing some heroic thing by "coming down from on high to save the poor unwashed masses." I want a body of politicians what will get and keep the government out of my way, so we can see what people can REALLY do.
No see . . . you don't get it shawn . . . Bush was nowhere to be found . . . but Kerry, having to leave, "took advantage of" the military's policy.
There is no partisan bias in such an interpretation . . .naw . . . just pure rational thinking . . .
Bush took advantagge of everybody and Kerry served his time for not one, not two but three injuries on the field of combat
. . . .and can you believe making deal of the 'heroism' of flying an airplane that is old!!!! HAHAHA!
I still can't stop laughing when I think of that attempt at rationalization!!
Well . . . not only that, he didn't even fly it that much . . . he was working 'elsewhere' instead!!
Anybody know that Creedance Clearwater song called: "Fortunate Son" ?
reminds me of someone . . .
Please don't distort Bush's record. You probably haven't even looked at his service record. It is just like how you guys talk about Woodward's book like you actually read the thing. You are only regurgitating the parts that have been spoon fed to you by a biased media who in no way is interested in the real story. I never said that Bush was a hero because he flew an airplane - don't put words in my mouth. But people did die flying the same type of aircraft during Cold War air patrols so unless you are a qualified pilot of a supersonic fighter aircraft I would not dismiss the skills required to do it.
And I'm sorry - three minor flesh wounds do not a hero make either. Kerry whined and did everything he could so he could get his three Purple Hearts so he could go back home and lie to Congress about things he did not actually witness in Vietnam. I will never find his conduct in that matter to be acceptable or excusable. You can defend that all you want but in doing so you are telling me that perjury is okay with you.
Please don't distort Bush's record. You probably haven't even looked at his service record. It is just like how you guys talk about Woodward's book like you actually read the thing. You are only regurgitating the parts that have been spoon fed to you by a biased media who in no way is interested in the real story. I never said that Bush was a hero because he flew an airplane - don't put words in my mouth. But people did die flying the same type of aircraft during Cold War air patrols so unless you are a qualified pilot of a supersonic fighter aircraft I would not dismiss the skills required to do it.
And I'm sorry - three minor flesh wounds do not a hero make either. Kerry whined and did everything he could so he could get his three Purple Hearts so he could go back home and lie to Congress about things he did not actually witness in Vietnam. I will never find his conduct in that matter to be acceptable or excusable. You can defend that all you want but in doing so you are telling me that perjury is okay with you.
WOW words from the uninitiated! I can tell you've never served. Purple hearts don't come to those who ask. You get nominated for a purple heart by those higher up on the food chain... Until you've served you shouldn't spout about that for which you don't know. It pains me to see uneducated jerks like you belittle the process by which the military hands out awards. My dad earned his purple heart. I earned my two NAMS. These things are not sold at the local PX/BX next to the deodorant FYI. Kerry still has chunks of steal in his arm. A couple of guys that served with Kerry say they owe him their lives. Until you've been in that situation you should really consider shutting up. Man alive, your ignorance makes me ill and angry.
You know what a hero makes? Serving on a swift boat a hero makes. Turning your boat around under fire and then jumping into the water to save a shipmate a hero makes. Losing flight eligibility doen't make a hero.
So killer did you formulate your opinion yourself or was it a talking point handed down from the chicken hawk supreme? Sounds a lot like what Rush's been spewing out of his cowardly mouth...
The question is not whether he served, which everyone admits, but whether he fulfilled his commitment, which is certainly debatable (but not necessarily the thread topic). Also, the government spent millions of dollars to train Bush to fly an aircraft... that was being phased out at the time. As if joining the National Guard wasn't enough of a guarantee against service in Vietnam, training on obsolete aircraft guaranteed he wouldn't. Not serving in the armed forces doesn't preclude criticism of the armed forces either...
On the supposedly dubious circumstances of John Kerry's Purple Heart awards, I'm not sure how anyone can claim his injuries were not real. Is that what you claim? Regardless, Army policy was 3 Purple Hearts and you're out. John Kerry was fortunate to get out of Vietnam, a frighteningly pointless experience that later informed his opposition to the war.
I am not saying his injuries weren't real. But I will say three Purple Heart citations for wounds that did not cause him to miss one day of combat action is fairly telling. A Purple Heart does not have a requirement when it comes to the severity of the injury - only that the injury came as a result of enemy fire. One of Kerry's former commanders related that the injury he saw (the one where Kerry received his first Purple Heart) was nothing more than a scratch. Other Vietnam veterans have said that three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in only four months of action makes for an extraordinary record - one that raises questions merely on its face. One former Navy helicopter pilot said that he and many colleagues came away with an array of scratches as Kerry did but most did not seek or accept Purple Heart awards for such injuries. Another combat medic in the Marines described Kerry's war record as being "superhuman." During his time he had never seen or heard of anybody getting three Purple Hearts in six or eight months let alone only four. Even more surprising to this individual was that Kerry did not miss any time despite being "wounded" three separate times. There also appears to be some discrepencies regarding a Purple Heart Kerry received and a Bronze Star that was awarded during the same action. The Purple Heart citation said that Kerry received shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm. The Bronze Star awarded for bravery in the same action described Kerry's arm as bleeding and being in pain and the citation said nothing about arm bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere. There just seem to be an awful lot of questions surrounding all these awards that I think a closer investigation is merited. It is a well known fact that far too many undeserved awards were handed out during the Vietnam War and Kerry's record begins to look ominously suspicious when cast in this light.
WOW words from the uninitiated! I can tell you've never served. Purple hearts don't come to those who ask. You get nominated for a purple heart by those higher up on the food chain... Until you've served you shouldn't spout about that for which you don't know. It pains me to see uneducated jerks like you belittle the process by which the military hands out awards. My dad earned his purple heart. I earned my two NAMS. These things are not sold at the local PX/BX next to the deodorant FYI. Kerry still has chunks of steal in his arm. A couple of guys that served with Kerry say they owe him their lives. Until you've been in that situation you should really consider shutting up. Man alive, your ignorance makes me ill and angry.
You know what a hero makes? Serving on a swift boat a hero makes. Turning your boat around under fire and then jumping into the water to save a shipmate a hero makes. Losing flight eligibility doen't make a hero.
So killer did you formulate your opinion yourself or was it a talking point handed down from the chicken hawk supreme? Sounds a lot like what Rush's been spewing out of his cowardly mouth...
A little sensitive are we? One of Kerry's former commanders has expressed his doubts about Kerry's record so I am not making this stuff up. I know a fair bit on how combat awards are given and quite often a particular command structure has a lot to do with how that process takes place. Awards are generally recommended by superiors so in Kerry's case these people would have had to rely on accounts given by Kerry and his crew as Kerry was commander of the boat. Injuries warranting the award of Purple Hearts are usually verified by a medic or corpsman - so I believe you are misleading others on this forum about that process just a bit. As Kerry was a Naval officer, this person was inevitable lower in rank. If a commander says he is wounded I seriously doubt that the medic or corpsman is going to say it is "just a scratch." He is probably going to agree with his superior that he is wounded. Does this make sense?
Now you aren't so gullible as to actually believe that every combat award that has been ever given out in the history of warfare has been deserved do you? I have heard people in the Navy serving aboard ships getting Silver Stars and Bronze Stars for valor when enemy activity was not even remotely near where these recipients were serving. I mean, take a look at Admiral Mike Boorda, the former Chief of Naval Operations. He committed suicide when the press found out he was wearing combat awards he did not deserve.
So don't lecture me like I have no idea what I am talking about. I have questions about Kerry's record based on all the information I have been able to see. If that makes me an uneducated jerk so be it. I just don't accept everything I am told on face value. Kerry's record of opportunistic flip-flopping on just about every issue quite simple makes me ask questions and to me that seems wise when we may hand him the most powerful job on the face of the Earth. The fact is, sir, that you were not there either. If you don't want to ask any questions about Kerry's war record then that is your business. But if I have questions that does not make me some kind of jerk. Kerry is the one making his hero staus an issue and as such I think we need to validate his claim. The records are out there and let us see if they can stand up to scrutiny.
Let me be clear: I appreciate John Kerry's service to this country. He served his country in war and that is commendable. George Bush served his country also albeit in a different capacity. Serving in the National Guard does not make him some kind of weasel. I am willing to bet you did not criticize Bill Clinton for not serving in Vietnam and the circumstances surrounding his conduct was far more deceitful than anything Bush ever did and that is a fact.
A little sensitive are we? One of Kerry's former commanders has expressed his doubts about Kerry's record so I am not making this stuff up. I know a fair bit on how combat awards are given and quite often a particular command structure has a lot to do with how that process takes place. Awards are generally recommended by superiors so in Kerry's case these people would have had to rely on accounts given by Kerry and his crew as Kerry was commander of the boat. Injuries warranting the award of Purple Hearts are usually verified by a medic or corpsman - so I believe you are misleading others on this forum about that process just a bit. As Kerry was a Naval officer, this person was inevitable lower in rank. If a commander says he is wounded I seriously doubt that the medic or corpsman is going to say it is "just a scratch." He is probably going to agree with his superior that he is wounded. Does this make sense?
Now you aren't so gullible as to actually believe that every combat award that has been ever given out in the history of warfare has been deserved do you? I have heard people in the Navy serving aboard ships getting Silver Stars and Bronze Stars for valor when enemy activity was not even remotely near where these recipients were serving. I mean, take a look at Admiral Mike Boorda, the former Chief of Naval Operations. He committed suicide when the press found out he was wearing combat awards he did not deserve.
So don't lecture me like I have no idea what I am talking about. I have questions about Kerry's record based on all the information I have been able to see. If that makes me an uneducated jerk so be it. I just don't accept everything I am told on face value. Kerry's record of opportunistic flip-flopping on just about every issue quite simple makes me ask questions and to me that seems wise when we may hand him the most powerful job on the face of the Earth. The fact is, sir, that you were not there either. If you don't want to ask any questions about Kerry's war record then that is your business. But if I have questions that does not make me some kind of jerk. Kerry is the one making his hero staus an issue and as such I think we need to validate his claim. The records are out there and let us see if they can stand up to scrutiny.
Let me be clear: I appreciate John Kerry's service to this country. He served his country in war and that is commendable. George Bush served his country also albeit in a different capacity. Serving in the National Guard does not make him some kind of weasel. I am willing to bet you did not criticize Bill Clinton for not serving in Vietnam and the circumstances surrounding his conduct was far more deceitful than anything Bush ever did and that is a fact.
As far as a JG telling a seasoned Corpsmen what to do, not gonna happen. You're grasping at straws if you think someone could simply demand a Purple Heart. Medals were handed out a little more freely in Vietnam I.E. CIB's for Army officers. A lot of Army officers were on three month tours just so they could get their CIB's
As generally understood, the Purple Heart is given to any U.S. citizen wounded in wartime service to the nation. Giving out Purple Hearts increased in 1968 as the United States Navy started sending swift boats up rivers in the Mekong Delta. Sailors -- no longer safe on aircraft carriers or battleships in the Gulf of Tonkin -- were starting to bleed, a lot. Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt himself would pin the medal on John Kerry at An Thoi about six weeks after the doctor at the Cam Ranh base took the shrapnel out of the young officer's right arm. "He called me in New York to tell me he had been wounded," his then girlfriend and later wife, Julia Thorne, remembered. "I was worried sick, scared to death that John or one of my brothers was going to die. He reassured me that he was OK."
Sounds like more than a scratch to me. It appears that someone of a higher rank actually removed the metal from Kerry's arm--Doctors enter the military as O-4 or O-5 I can't recall off the top of my head. Kerry was an O-2, a LTJG.
Another tid bit
Quote:
For the record, Purple Hearts are given for the following enemy-related injuries:
a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel or other projectile created by enemy action.
b) Injury caused by enemy-placed mine or trap.
c) Injury caused by enemy-released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.
d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy-generated explosions.
Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
b) Heat stroke.
c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
e) Battle fatigue.
f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.
If you read the criteria Kerry deserved the medal. There are no if ands or buts. He was wounded in action. He had a piece of shrapnel in his arm. It was later removed by a ranking officer.
As far as my views on Clinton-- I never voted for him. No self respecting serviceman would vote for Clinton. I voted for the Shrub but I find his policies disgusting now. I'll save my rants about the loser-in-cheif for other threads though.
To address your other issues all I have to say is Linky-Linky. Show me who is bashing Kerry's service record so I can present real proof (records and the like) to refute. You're probably quoting Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard who wasn't on the swift boat at the time of the conflict. He wasn't there. He's playing party politics because Kerry's comments before congress ticked him off. Hibbard has contended that the little piece of shrapnel didn't warrant the purple heart but according to the criteria (note there is no size, shape, or location stipulation within the criteria) kerry did. Why didn't Hibbard say something 35 years ago? Why didn't Hibbard recommend denial of the award. I recommend my fair share of denials or award downgrades while I served. Hibbard could have done the same. Kerry was eligible for the award. Case closed. You can build all of the "other vets" straw men you want but the truth is still the truth.
My sensitivity boils down to the feeling of disgust I get when people question a man who was wounded in battle. Sure he didn't lose an arm. Sure he wasn't killed. You can't deny though he was wounded. He had shrapnel in his arm. It was removed by a doctor. By questioning this PH your questioning Kerry's service to this country. I find it truly distasteful to question the courage or patriotism of a man who was wounded in battle-- A man twice decorated for valor.
Finally, Adm Boorda's situation involved more than two V's. Boorda was under quite a bit of stress over issues such as tailhook, don't ask don't tell, allowing women on warships, and a few other insinuations. Oh, and Boorda wasn't actually awarded the V's which probably led to his suicide--he simply wore them. Kerry was awarded the purple hearts.
[edit] I was tired so I got the officer ranks classification wrong. I forgot about Ensign...Added 1 to all of the ranks...[/edit]
Comments
There's this article on CNN, the sound of the other shoe falling on this topic.
Men who proudly served in Vietnam with John Kerry are beginning to come forward to dispute his allegations of "atrocities" committed by that group. They've always felt that Mr. Kerry maligned their characters for political gain and apparently they're ready to challenge him.
An incensed Nixon encouraged O'Neill, who was awarded two Bronze Stars in Vietnam, to challenge Kerry, which he did in a debate on the "Dick Cavett Show."
At one point during the heated exchange, O'Neill, an admiral's son, demanded Kerry explain why, if he saw war crimes taking place, "you didn't do something about them."
Since then, O'Neill has largely remained out of the spotlight as Kerry's political star rose in Massachusetts and then nationally, turning down what he said were more than 50 requests -- many from Kerry's political opponents -- to come forward on television.
"I haven't been on television in many, many years. I had very little political involvement," said O'Neill, who described himself as a political Independent in a phone interview last month with the Houston Chronicle.
But O'Neill said Tuesday that he and the others who served with Kerry -- who "would much rather have nothing to do with this" -- feel they have "no choice" but to come forward, which he said would dispel the notion that Vietnam veterans as a group are supportive of Kerry's candidacy.
"We were there, we know the truth, and we know that this guy's unfit to be commander-in-chief," said O'Neill, who took over command of Kerry's boat after he left. "I think you'll find that people are very, very angry at John Kerry. They remember his career in Vietnam as a short, controversial one, and they believe that only Hollywood could turn this guy into a war hero."
Kerry can handle a few antagonists from his past (who happen to hold a 30-year grudge more than anything else.) I wouldn't judge fellow soldiers' perceptions of Kerry based on one or two... eh. My heart's really not in this fight. We have one candidate who served (arguably) in the guard through political connections and nepotism, and another who won 3 purple hearts in Vietnam, came back to the United States and led the anti-war movement. Bad things happened in Vietnam. I don't think we need to establish that. Perhaps the word atrocities does not reflect well on the unit, but would anyone defend some of things they did as ethical- even for wartime?
Originally posted by Aquatic
At least it wasn't subliminable.
... and at least he has not used the nukular strategery. 8)
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Kerry can handle a few antagonists from his past (who happen to hold a 30-year grudge more than anything else.)
At least a few people seem to remember Kerry showing up to do his duty.
Originally posted by shetline
At least a few people seem to remember Kerry showing up to do his duty.
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
Originally posted by 7E7
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
these Bush-lickers are priceless!!
Originally posted by pfflam
these Bush-lickers are priceless!!
Why don't you guys actually respond to a post rather than coming back with a lame and quippy one-liner? Perhaps you find the truth disquieting? Once again we see a response that can only be categorized as being decidedly WEAK SAUCE...
Try disproving what I said just once. Or is that too much work for you?
Bush has NEVER questioned Kerry's patriotism. He in fact has acknowledged Kerry's Vietnam service and he has publicly thanked him for it. But what Bush has done is question Kerry's voting record in the Senate and if that record indicates weak support for this country's national defense (and his record does show that is the case) than that is fair game. That is not questioning a man's patriotism - it is questioning his judgement and those are two separate issues. This "they are attacking my patriotism" is just another red herring thrown up by the Democrats to cloud the issue. Kerry's voting record and his habit of waffling on the most important issues facing this nation today are very troubling things and it is fair that Bush bring them to the light of day so voters can see that they have a clear choice. Bush stands on principle and he does not waffle on the issues. Kerry on the other hand has made it clear that he cannot be trusted to keep his word and that is a big deal when you are dealing with issues like national security and when we put our credibility on the line with other nations. The world needs to know that the U.S. will stand by their word and not cut and run when things get a little tough. This idea that war and nation-building are easy things is pure nonsense. Bush never said that Iraq was going to be an easy road - nothing worth doing ever is. But if we stay the course and see things through then the reward for doing so in the end will be great. It is probably at least a five year process and it would be wise to look at the merits of the operation at that point. We are only a year in to this thing and much progress already has been made. There is a lot still to do and we must see to it that we see it through to a successful conclusion.
Originally posted by 7E7
Bush has proven that he did serve definitively. He provided complete records of his service - end of story. He flew one of the most dangerous combat aircraft in the USAF arsenal at that time and many of his colleagues who served in that same capacity were killed while flying Cold War air patrol missions. I love how people like you can point fingers about who did and didn't serve when I can just about guarantee that none of you have served in the National Guard or anywhere else. Filling yourself with umpteen cans of Jolt Cola while cramming for a computer science exam is not service to your country despite what you might think about the merits of such endeavors. At least a few of Bush's colleagues remember him inquiring about serving in Vietnam but his particular aircraft was not one that was used in the combat theater at that time and there was not a need for more combat pilots in any case.
On the other hand, there are some serious questions about the circumstances surrounding John Kerry's three Purple Heart awards. Apparently he did not miss a single day of active duty and he was immediately sent home following the third instance. Therefore he served 3-4 months of a one year tour of duty. I would say he was kind of fortunate to get out of the rest of his service obligation after three minor flesh wounds...
Here's a rebuttal...
The question is not whether he served, which everyone admits, but whether he fulfilled his commitment, which is certainly debatable (but not necessarily the thread topic). Also, the government spent millions of dollars to train Bush to fly an aircraft... that was being phased out at the time. As if joining the National Guard wasn't enough of a guarantee against service in Vietnam, training on obsolete aircraft guaranteed he wouldn't. Not serving in the armed forces doesn't preclude criticism of the armed forces either...
On the supposedly dubious circumstances of John Kerry's Purple Heart awards, I'm not sure how anyone can claim his injuries were not real. Is that what you claim? Regardless, Army policy was 3 Purple Hearts and you're out. John Kerry was fortunate to get out of Vietnam, a frighteningly pointless experience that later informed his opposition to the war.
Regardless, Army policy was 3 Purple Hearts and you're out.
I will agree.
He did indeed take full advantage of that policy.
I need to look up where I read it but there were servicemen who had limbs blown off who never received a Purple Heart.
I will get back with you all on that.
Originally posted by 7E7
Why don't you guys actually respond to a post rather than coming back with a lame and quippy one-liner? Perhaps you find the truth disquieting? Once again we see a response that can only be categorized as being decidedly WEAK SAUCE...
Try disproving what I said just once. Or is that too much work for you?
Because your [EDIT} not worth responding to.
Originally posted by msantti
I will agree.
He did indeed take full advantage of that policy.
I need to look up where I read it but there were servicemen who had limbs blown off who never received a Purple Heart.
I will get back with you all on that.
What do you mean by "taking full advantage of that policy?" Isn't the only advantage you could take necessarily "full" since soliders must leave active combat in Vietnam? (I'm assuming they couldn't stay even they wanted to. Correct me if I'm wrong.) That's a rhetorically sloppy phrasing, msantti, if I understand things correctly.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
What do you mean by "taking full advantage of that policy?" Isn't the only advantage you could take necessarily "full" since soliders must leave active combat in Vietnam? (I'm assuming they couldn't stay even they wanted to. Correct me if I'm wrong.) That's a rhetorically sloppy phrasing, msantti, if I understand things correctly.
No see . . . you don't get it shawn . . . Bush was nowhere to be found . . . but Kerry, having to leave, "took advantage of" the military's policy.
There is no partisan bias in such an interpretation . . .naw . . . just pure rational thinking . . .
Bush took advantagge of everybody and Kerry served his time for not one, not two but three injuries on the field of combat
. . . .and can you believe making deal of the 'heroism' of flying an airplane that is old!!!! HAHAHA!
I still can't stop laughing when I think of that attempt at rationalization!!
Well . . . not only that, he didn't even fly it that much . . . he was working 'elsewhere' instead!!
Anybody know that Creedance Clearwater song called: "Fortunate Son" ?
reminds me of someone . . .
John Kerry could have been a Fortunate Son, but he chose doing something with his life for positive social change. He, like Howard Dean, recognized the social responsibility of upper-class membership- eschewing the allure of hegemony. Can we say nothing about Bush but his preternatural family obsession with maintaining power- coming from the family at the center of the military and industrial complex? What did he do in his youth-- especially while John Kerry was testifying in front of Congress, famously asking "How do you ask a man to be last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to die for a mistake?" The contrast should chill anyone.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
He, like Howard Dean, recognized the social responsibility of upper-class membership...
Nothing says love and equality like the Noblesse Oblige.
It's insulting. A president is not the answer, from either party. I don't want a politician who feels he is doing some heroic thing by "coming down from on high to save the poor unwashed masses." I want a body of politicians what will get and keep the government out of my way, so we can see what people can REALLY do.
Originally posted by pfflam
No see . . . you don't get it shawn . . . Bush was nowhere to be found . . . but Kerry, having to leave, "took advantage of" the military's policy.
There is no partisan bias in such an interpretation . . .naw . . . just pure rational thinking . . .
Bush took advantagge of everybody and Kerry served his time for not one, not two but three injuries on the field of combat
. . . .and can you believe making deal of the 'heroism' of flying an airplane that is old!!!! HAHAHA!
I still can't stop laughing when I think of that attempt at rationalization!!
Well . . . not only that, he didn't even fly it that much . . . he was working 'elsewhere' instead!!
Anybody know that Creedance Clearwater song called: "Fortunate Son" ?
reminds me of someone . . .
Please don't distort Bush's record. You probably haven't even looked at his service record. It is just like how you guys talk about Woodward's book like you actually read the thing. You are only regurgitating the parts that have been spoon fed to you by a biased media who in no way is interested in the real story. I never said that Bush was a hero because he flew an airplane - don't put words in my mouth. But people did die flying the same type of aircraft during Cold War air patrols so unless you are a qualified pilot of a supersonic fighter aircraft I would not dismiss the skills required to do it.
And I'm sorry - three minor flesh wounds do not a hero make either. Kerry whined and did everything he could so he could get his three Purple Hearts so he could go back home and lie to Congress about things he did not actually witness in Vietnam. I will never find his conduct in that matter to be acceptable or excusable. You can defend that all you want but in doing so you are telling me that perjury is okay with you.
Originally posted by 7E7
Please don't distort Bush's record. You probably haven't even looked at his service record. It is just like how you guys talk about Woodward's book like you actually read the thing. You are only regurgitating the parts that have been spoon fed to you by a biased media who in no way is interested in the real story. I never said that Bush was a hero because he flew an airplane - don't put words in my mouth. But people did die flying the same type of aircraft during Cold War air patrols so unless you are a qualified pilot of a supersonic fighter aircraft I would not dismiss the skills required to do it.
And I'm sorry - three minor flesh wounds do not a hero make either. Kerry whined and did everything he could so he could get his three Purple Hearts so he could go back home and lie to Congress about things he did not actually witness in Vietnam. I will never find his conduct in that matter to be acceptable or excusable. You can defend that all you want but in doing so you are telling me that perjury is okay with you.
WOW words from the uninitiated! I can tell you've never served. Purple hearts don't come to those who ask. You get nominated for a purple heart by those higher up on the food chain... Until you've served you shouldn't spout about that for which you don't know. It pains me to see uneducated jerks like you belittle the process by which the military hands out awards. My dad earned his purple heart. I earned my two NAMS. These things are not sold at the local PX/BX next to the deodorant FYI. Kerry still has chunks of steal in his arm. A couple of guys that served with Kerry say they owe him their lives. Until you've been in that situation you should really consider shutting up. Man alive, your ignorance makes me ill and angry.
You know what a hero makes? Serving on a swift boat a hero makes. Turning your boat around under fire and then jumping into the water to save a shipmate a hero makes. Losing flight eligibility doen't make a hero.
So killer did you formulate your opinion yourself or was it a talking point handed down from the chicken hawk supreme? Sounds a lot like what Rush's been spewing out of his cowardly mouth...
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Here's a rebuttal...
The question is not whether he served, which everyone admits, but whether he fulfilled his commitment, which is certainly debatable (but not necessarily the thread topic). Also, the government spent millions of dollars to train Bush to fly an aircraft... that was being phased out at the time. As if joining the National Guard wasn't enough of a guarantee against service in Vietnam, training on obsolete aircraft guaranteed he wouldn't. Not serving in the armed forces doesn't preclude criticism of the armed forces either...
On the supposedly dubious circumstances of John Kerry's Purple Heart awards, I'm not sure how anyone can claim his injuries were not real. Is that what you claim? Regardless, Army policy was 3 Purple Hearts and you're out. John Kerry was fortunate to get out of Vietnam, a frighteningly pointless experience that later informed his opposition to the war.
I am not saying his injuries weren't real. But I will say three Purple Heart citations for wounds that did not cause him to miss one day of combat action is fairly telling. A Purple Heart does not have a requirement when it comes to the severity of the injury - only that the injury came as a result of enemy fire. One of Kerry's former commanders related that the injury he saw (the one where Kerry received his first Purple Heart) was nothing more than a scratch. Other Vietnam veterans have said that three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in only four months of action makes for an extraordinary record - one that raises questions merely on its face. One former Navy helicopter pilot said that he and many colleagues came away with an array of scratches as Kerry did but most did not seek or accept Purple Heart awards for such injuries. Another combat medic in the Marines described Kerry's war record as being "superhuman." During his time he had never seen or heard of anybody getting three Purple Hearts in six or eight months let alone only four. Even more surprising to this individual was that Kerry did not miss any time despite being "wounded" three separate times. There also appears to be some discrepencies regarding a Purple Heart Kerry received and a Bronze Star that was awarded during the same action. The Purple Heart citation said that Kerry received shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm. The Bronze Star awarded for bravery in the same action described Kerry's arm as bleeding and being in pain and the citation said nothing about arm bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere. There just seem to be an awful lot of questions surrounding all these awards that I think a closer investigation is merited. It is a well known fact that far too many undeserved awards were handed out during the Vietnam War and Kerry's record begins to look ominously suspicious when cast in this light.
Originally posted by faust9
WOW words from the uninitiated! I can tell you've never served. Purple hearts don't come to those who ask. You get nominated for a purple heart by those higher up on the food chain... Until you've served you shouldn't spout about that for which you don't know. It pains me to see uneducated jerks like you belittle the process by which the military hands out awards. My dad earned his purple heart. I earned my two NAMS. These things are not sold at the local PX/BX next to the deodorant FYI. Kerry still has chunks of steal in his arm. A couple of guys that served with Kerry say they owe him their lives. Until you've been in that situation you should really consider shutting up. Man alive, your ignorance makes me ill and angry.
You know what a hero makes? Serving on a swift boat a hero makes. Turning your boat around under fire and then jumping into the water to save a shipmate a hero makes. Losing flight eligibility doen't make a hero.
So killer did you formulate your opinion yourself or was it a talking point handed down from the chicken hawk supreme? Sounds a lot like what Rush's been spewing out of his cowardly mouth...
A little sensitive are we? One of Kerry's former commanders has expressed his doubts about Kerry's record so I am not making this stuff up. I know a fair bit on how combat awards are given and quite often a particular command structure has a lot to do with how that process takes place. Awards are generally recommended by superiors so in Kerry's case these people would have had to rely on accounts given by Kerry and his crew as Kerry was commander of the boat. Injuries warranting the award of Purple Hearts are usually verified by a medic or corpsman - so I believe you are misleading others on this forum about that process just a bit. As Kerry was a Naval officer, this person was inevitable lower in rank. If a commander says he is wounded I seriously doubt that the medic or corpsman is going to say it is "just a scratch." He is probably going to agree with his superior that he is wounded. Does this make sense?
Now you aren't so gullible as to actually believe that every combat award that has been ever given out in the history of warfare has been deserved do you? I have heard people in the Navy serving aboard ships getting Silver Stars and Bronze Stars for valor when enemy activity was not even remotely near where these recipients were serving. I mean, take a look at Admiral Mike Boorda, the former Chief of Naval Operations. He committed suicide when the press found out he was wearing combat awards he did not deserve.
So don't lecture me like I have no idea what I am talking about. I have questions about Kerry's record based on all the information I have been able to see. If that makes me an uneducated jerk so be it. I just don't accept everything I am told on face value. Kerry's record of opportunistic flip-flopping on just about every issue quite simple makes me ask questions and to me that seems wise when we may hand him the most powerful job on the face of the Earth. The fact is, sir, that you were not there either. If you don't want to ask any questions about Kerry's war record then that is your business. But if I have questions that does not make me some kind of jerk. Kerry is the one making his hero staus an issue and as such I think we need to validate his claim. The records are out there and let us see if they can stand up to scrutiny.
Let me be clear: I appreciate John Kerry's service to this country. He served his country in war and that is commendable. George Bush served his country also albeit in a different capacity. Serving in the National Guard does not make him some kind of weasel. I am willing to bet you did not criticize Bill Clinton for not serving in Vietnam and the circumstances surrounding his conduct was far more deceitful than anything Bush ever did and that is a fact.
Originally posted by 7E7
A little sensitive are we? One of Kerry's former commanders has expressed his doubts about Kerry's record so I am not making this stuff up. I know a fair bit on how combat awards are given and quite often a particular command structure has a lot to do with how that process takes place. Awards are generally recommended by superiors so in Kerry's case these people would have had to rely on accounts given by Kerry and his crew as Kerry was commander of the boat. Injuries warranting the award of Purple Hearts are usually verified by a medic or corpsman - so I believe you are misleading others on this forum about that process just a bit. As Kerry was a Naval officer, this person was inevitable lower in rank. If a commander says he is wounded I seriously doubt that the medic or corpsman is going to say it is "just a scratch." He is probably going to agree with his superior that he is wounded. Does this make sense?
Now you aren't so gullible as to actually believe that every combat award that has been ever given out in the history of warfare has been deserved do you? I have heard people in the Navy serving aboard ships getting Silver Stars and Bronze Stars for valor when enemy activity was not even remotely near where these recipients were serving. I mean, take a look at Admiral Mike Boorda, the former Chief of Naval Operations. He committed suicide when the press found out he was wearing combat awards he did not deserve.
So don't lecture me like I have no idea what I am talking about. I have questions about Kerry's record based on all the information I have been able to see. If that makes me an uneducated jerk so be it. I just don't accept everything I am told on face value. Kerry's record of opportunistic flip-flopping on just about every issue quite simple makes me ask questions and to me that seems wise when we may hand him the most powerful job on the face of the Earth. The fact is, sir, that you were not there either. If you don't want to ask any questions about Kerry's war record then that is your business. But if I have questions that does not make me some kind of jerk. Kerry is the one making his hero staus an issue and as such I think we need to validate his claim. The records are out there and let us see if they can stand up to scrutiny.
Let me be clear: I appreciate John Kerry's service to this country. He served his country in war and that is commendable. George Bush served his country also albeit in a different capacity. Serving in the National Guard does not make him some kind of weasel. I am willing to bet you did not criticize Bill Clinton for not serving in Vietnam and the circumstances surrounding his conduct was far more deceitful than anything Bush ever did and that is a fact.
First, Kerry requested swift boat duty. http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Reque...tboat_Duty.pdf
Next, this looks trumped up now doesn't it: http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Silver_Star.pdf
This must be a farse too: http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Bronze_Star.pdf
As far as a JG telling a seasoned Corpsmen what to do, not gonna happen. You're grasping at straws if you think someone could simply demand a Purple Heart. Medals were handed out a little more freely in Vietnam I.E. CIB's for Army officers. A lot of Army officers were on three month tours just so they could get their CIB's
this is from a salon article: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../kerry_purple/
As generally understood, the Purple Heart is given to any U.S. citizen wounded in wartime service to the nation. Giving out Purple Hearts increased in 1968 as the United States Navy started sending swift boats up rivers in the Mekong Delta. Sailors -- no longer safe on aircraft carriers or battleships in the Gulf of Tonkin -- were starting to bleed, a lot. Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt himself would pin the medal on John Kerry at An Thoi about six weeks after the doctor at the Cam Ranh base took the shrapnel out of the young officer's right arm. "He called me in New York to tell me he had been wounded," his then girlfriend and later wife, Julia Thorne, remembered. "I was worried sick, scared to death that John or one of my brothers was going to die. He reassured me that he was OK."
Sounds like more than a scratch to me. It appears that someone of a higher rank actually removed the metal from Kerry's arm--Doctors enter the military as O-4 or O-5 I can't recall off the top of my head. Kerry was an O-2, a LTJG.
Another tid bit
For the record, Purple Hearts are given for the following enemy-related injuries:
a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel or other projectile created by enemy action.
b) Injury caused by enemy-placed mine or trap.
c) Injury caused by enemy-released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.
d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy-generated explosions.
Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
b) Heat stroke.
c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
e) Battle fatigue.
f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.
If you read the criteria Kerry deserved the medal. There are no if ands or buts. He was wounded in action. He had a piece of shrapnel in his arm. It was later removed by a ranking officer.
As far as my views on Clinton-- I never voted for him. No self respecting serviceman would vote for Clinton. I voted for the Shrub but I find his policies disgusting now. I'll save my rants about the loser-in-cheif for other threads though.
To address your other issues all I have to say is Linky-Linky. Show me who is bashing Kerry's service record so I can present real proof (records and the like) to refute. You're probably quoting Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard who wasn't on the swift boat at the time of the conflict. He wasn't there. He's playing party politics because Kerry's comments before congress ticked him off. Hibbard has contended that the little piece of shrapnel didn't warrant the purple heart but according to the criteria (note there is no size, shape, or location stipulation within the criteria) kerry did. Why didn't Hibbard say something 35 years ago? Why didn't Hibbard recommend denial of the award. I recommend my fair share of denials or award downgrades while I served. Hibbard could have done the same. Kerry was eligible for the award. Case closed. You can build all of the "other vets" straw men you want but the truth is still the truth.
My sensitivity boils down to the feeling of disgust I get when people question a man who was wounded in battle. Sure he didn't lose an arm. Sure he wasn't killed. You can't deny though he was wounded. He had shrapnel in his arm. It was removed by a doctor. By questioning this PH your questioning Kerry's service to this country. I find it truly distasteful to question the courage or patriotism of a man who was wounded in battle-- A man twice decorated for valor.
Finally, Adm Boorda's situation involved more than two V's. Boorda was under quite a bit of stress over issues such as tailhook, don't ask don't tell, allowing women on warships, and a few other insinuations. Oh, and Boorda wasn't actually awarded the V's which probably led to his suicide--he simply wore them. Kerry was awarded the purple hearts.
[edit] I was tired so I got the officer ranks classification wrong. I forgot about Ensign...Added 1 to all of the ranks...[/edit]