The embedded market doesn't need a second FPU and Motorola didn't want (read: spend the money) to redesign the core of the G4 for Apple alone....
It's just a business decision.
Just my 2¢
Sometime last year it became apparent that Apple had bought over half of all G4 cpu's made since they were developed, I'd say that was a bad business decision. Unless of course, Apple hadn't requested a 2nd floating point unit. This also applies to the FSB also, handicap the cpu for the single largest customer for the G4 for the needs of the embedded market.
I know there are other factors involved, but for Motorola not to expend the effort to develop the G4 further faster for the single largest purchaser of all G4's ever produced at the time this became apparent, at least in my mind is fairly damning of Motorola's upper management.
Except mine, the 1.5 GHz G4 in my PowerBook is not at all slow. No complaints here. 3 years ago...whole 'nother can of worms.
The agreement was over the past incompetence of Motorola's management, which is beyond dispute.
When the CEO is ousted by a shareholder revolt and replaced by a total outsider (Sun's Ed Zander) you know there's a problem.
Freescale can be grateful that the 745x core is basically sound, and it really doesn't need much work to become a first-rate competitor again within its market (i.e., not high-end, fire-breathing desktops and servers).
It sounds like their future plans are all built around Book E, which will be interesting, and which should save them some engineering costs and time to market. I'm not sure how well that specification scales up (it's also used in IBM's 400 series and Mot's star-crossed 8500 series, neither of which are breaking any performance records) but Freescale seems to be fairly confident.
This isn't the old Motorola. It's not even just Motorola. You can bet against Philips Semiconductor and STM Micro (Europe's largest contract fab) if you want to.
Crolles is online now, making product at 90nm now. They're (wisely) starting out with simple stuff like memory before tackling something as complex as a CPU. So far, the whole Crolles partnership is on schedule.
Get used to it. Frankly, while I understand the impulse to be skeptical of Motorola, I have to wonder about the hostility toward the prospect of a valuable second supplier. Do you want Apple to have all their eggs in one basket again?
Oh, and check Motorola's last quarter results, will you? You might find them interesting.
If i had the choice between Mo.. äh, Freescale and IBM i prefer the king of the hill IBM
Look at POWER4/ POWER5, the most powerful CPU of the world.
Intel Corp. said on Friday it has scrapped the development of two new computer chips in order to rush to the marketplace a more efficient chip technology...
Interesting... and a shrewd move too IMO. Even though it is Intel, it's good to see a company who is willing to correct their direction *before* things get ugly, even if means completely scrapping their current roadmap.
Regarding the concern for a Powerbook upgrade I see little need for it at the moment. Perhaps marketing concerns will push apple to develop a G5 Powerbook quicker, but the idea that PC laptops are killing Powerbooks is pretty silly. I can understand if you'd say pc's are punchier (quicker to execute simpler commands) but in terms of number crunching the Mac have it in spades. I own a G3 Pismo 500 and a PIV 2.6 GHZ Vaio, each has a gig of ram and I use both interchangeably depending on my need and the Pismo at 1/4 the clock speed hold up very well to heavy 3d and video rendering in FCP, Lightwave and after effects just as well if not better than the VAIO. Truthfully the pc is junk and I wouldn't own it if I didn't need to, people need to look past the specs and get themselves some real world "practice" on these machines, for their purpose before they make vague blanket statements like pc laptops are better than apple's. Silly!
If you compare the performance of the fastest PC portables to Apple's, the current powerbooks get solidly trounced.
You can get 3.2GHz P4s from Toshiba, and you can even get a 3.4GHz P4 on an 800MHz from Alienware - see the Area-51m
Apple could easily put the same 2GHz (44.5 Watt) G5 that's in the Xserve into a case about as thick as my old wallstreet G3.
I'm getting sick of thin -- I want POWER in my Powerbook.
Interesting... and a shrewd move too IMO. Even though it is Intel, it's good to see a company who is willing to correct their direction *before* things get ugly, even if means completely scrapping their current roadmap.
I'm getting sick of thin -- I want POWER in my Powerbook.
Speak for yourself... I just got back from Best Buy, and was rather disgusted that I couldn't find a PC laptop (other than the token Sony 12") that weighed less than 6.5 pounds, and it seemed most of them were approaching (if not exceeding) 8 pounds. And to top it off, they were all WAY too bulky. I'll stick with my 5 lb. 12" Powerbook, thankyewverymuch.
If Apple were to come out with a G5 "Heftybook", that'd be OK by me, so long as they didn't drop the small & light Powerbooks. After all, who in their right mind would want small & light in something designed to be portable?
There is the possibility we could see a PowerBook G5 at WWDC. The only scenario for this I see happening is that it will be a 17-inch model only, running a G5 processor at either 1.6GHz or 1.8 GHz, for $3,299. Available in August. Meanwhile, Apple would continue to sell the current G4 PB's. _
Think about this, when the 17 was first released it was $3,299. It is now $2,799. We saw a similar price drop like this when the last of the G4 towers were released (the last rev before the G5s), and this scenario fits nicely with previous modus operandi from Apple.
Given what we know about the newer G5 chip and it's strained availability at its new process, in addition to the fact that the 17-inch form factor would be the most accommodating and forgiving relative to the G5's heat, I think my scenario is the closest to reality there is relative to any speculation about G5 PowerBooks at WWDC.
Now I don't know what the likelihood of anything like this coming from Apple at WWDC or this summer is. But I will tell you one thing, ask anyone who bought the first PowerBook with a SuperDrive from Apple in November who thought there would be 12- and 17-inch PowerBooks a few months later in January? And you would have a resounding, "No way in hell."
I'm sure Apple is not going to spend the entire WWDC demoing Tiger and Tiger's coding tools. While not much has been discussed about revolutionary new features in Tiger, it sounds to me like it's going to be a bland update. Much more so than 10.2 to 10.3 was. I also don't believe they are going to spend much time demoing towers that cannot reach 3.0GHz as was promised to members the year previously. I think that the PowerBook 17-inch at G5 is something that is feasible now, and if Apple chooses to woo developers, they just may put this thing out there. They will want momentum after this show, and this could provide the forward momentum they are looking for.
Heh... good point. However, hot as it is, it still doesn't impede them from actually producing the Prescott. And by the looks of it, it still has some headroom to grow before they'll have to transition out to a cooler part.
It is not known at all. The typical figures from Motorola and IBM can not be compared at all. If you compare Maximum power usage the 970FX loses. Even that is not really all that usefull as modern workloads seldom max out a processor for long.
The bigger issue is that the processor is only one element in the machine. Current G5 support logic quickly makes up much of the power usage difference.
Since we are talking about a highly integrated G4 here the differrences could very well be more extreme. simply adding a Hypertransport interface and a memory interface to the G4 will give it a tremedous advantage over the 970FX in its current form.
As far as the 970 series goes I would not be surprised to find out that Apple and IBM are working on a portable version that provides some of the same benefits. There is still the question of power usage, but such a chip should see consderable advantage over the 970FX.
Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
I thought clock for clock that, that was already known.
Meanwhile, they are Wintel laptops that run rings around the 'light' 'power'Books.
It's five years since the 500 mhz intro' debacle and Apple are still dicking around with motorola cpus.
Business plan? What business plan?
The sooner they make a couple of billion from iPod and mate of iPod and the rest of the music/gadget family the future electronics based Apple has planned...the sooner they can just release 'X' on Intel processors and give up the Mac 'PPC' hardware ghost...
Yeesh. A year at 2 gig on the G5 (give or take a month...)
And no sign of the G5 in anything else?
What a **** poor start to the 'Mac' hardware year...
Since the talk is about portable computers, I have to recall that today is the day Intel introduces Dothan, the second generation centrino going up to 2GHz and equiped with 2 MB of L2 cache memory. Here is a detailed presentation of the new processor. It is in french, but there are also comparative benchmarks.
Why the hell do people want G5s in laptops? You have massive power consumption and massive cooling requirements for the .09 micron part (due to massive leakage) and you want to put that into a low-power/low-circulation laptop.
Instead of wanting a modified G4 with low power consumption and lower heat output...
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for reinstilling hope in my 1.5Ghz 15" PB, hahahaha. All this talk about new technology makes me feel so obsolete---and i only bought this a week ago...!
I use both wintel and Apple Laptops and let me tell you one thing, my new PB 1.5 ghz is the fastest laptop i have ever had and use a pentium m at 1.6 ghz and it is not even close in performance or speed.
Quote:
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
Well, Some time ago Jobs hinted at the end of the year at best. I can't remember when he has ever delivered significantly ahead of any schedual he has publically set. He sets so few and i think it's a safe bet to beleive what he says over any rumors. So, I say MWSF at the earliest, i.e. announce and then wait 1-2 months. Otherwise, WWDC 2005.
I read the doom and gloom posts over at MacRumors on this topic. I really get the feeling it's mostly a bunch of young whiners who probably would complain that the G5 is too expensive to buy even if it did come out today.
It wasn't long ago that it was hard to imagine G4 above 1 GHz getting stuffed into a powerbook and even more so an iBook. The G5 will get in there one day, but I still think they are very good and useful machines without it.
People have stated that the Wintel laptops are kicking Apples behind. I can't comment since I won't and don't touch the things. Out of curiosity, I would be interested to hear from anyone who does use both as to the truth in that statement. Do the G4 really lag that far behind? Whatever the answer, it won't seperate me from my alu-baby.
Comments
Originally posted by PB
So, why the G4s don't have this second FPU? Is it again all about the well known Motorola specialisation in screwing up things?
The embedded market doesn't need a second FPU and Motorola didn't want (read: spend the money) to redesign the core of the G4 for Apple alone.
And I don't think they will do it in the future. We will see a bigger L2 and a memory controller. Expect the e700 to have the first redesigned core.
It's just a business decision.
Originally posted by smalM
The embedded market doesn't need a second FPU and Motorola didn't want (read: spend the money) to redesign the core of the G4 for Apple alone....
It's just a business decision.
Just my 2¢
Sometime last year it became apparent that Apple had bought over half of all G4 cpu's made since they were developed, I'd say that was a bad business decision. Unless of course, Apple hadn't requested a 2nd floating point unit. This also applies to the FSB also, handicap the cpu for the single largest customer for the G4 for the needs of the embedded market.
I know there are other factors involved, but for Motorola not to expend the effort to develop the G4 further faster for the single largest purchaser of all G4's ever produced at the time this became apparent, at least in my mind is fairly damning of Motorola's upper management.
Originally posted by rickag
... at least in my mind is fairly damning of Motorola's upper management.
You will not find anyone with an other opinion here
Originally posted by smalM
You will not find anyone with an other opinion here
Except mine, the 1.5 GHz G4 in my PowerBook is not at all slow. No complaints here. 3 years ago...whole 'nother can of worms.
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Except mine, the 1.5 GHz G4 in my PowerBook is not at all slow. No complaints here. 3 years ago...whole 'nother can of worms.
The agreement was over the past incompetence of Motorola's management, which is beyond dispute.
When the CEO is ousted by a shareholder revolt and replaced by a total outsider (Sun's Ed Zander) you know there's a problem.
Freescale can be grateful that the 745x core is basically sound, and it really doesn't need much work to become a first-rate competitor again within its market (i.e., not high-end, fire-breathing desktops and servers).
It sounds like their future plans are all built around Book E, which will be interesting, and which should save them some engineering costs and time to market. I'm not sure how well that specification scales up (it's also used in IBM's 400 series and Mot's star-crossed 8500 series, neither of which are breaking any performance records) but Freescale seems to be fairly confident.
Originally posted by Amorph
This isn't the old Motorola. It's not even just Motorola. You can bet against Philips Semiconductor and STM Micro (Europe's largest contract fab) if you want to.
Crolles is online now, making product at 90nm now. They're (wisely) starting out with simple stuff like memory before tackling something as complex as a CPU. So far, the whole Crolles partnership is on schedule.
Get used to it. Frankly, while I understand the impulse to be skeptical of Motorola, I have to wonder about the hostility toward the prospect of a valuable second supplier.
Oh, and check Motorola's last quarter results, will you? You might find them interesting.
If i had the choice between Mo.. äh, Freescale and IBM i prefer the king of the hill IBM
Look at POWER4/ POWER5, the most powerful CPU of the world.
But i also love surprises
I want to believe
You're so right: Reuters
Intel Corp. said on Friday it has scrapped the development of two new computer chips in order to rush to the marketplace a more efficient chip technology...
Efficient chip technology
First time i heard about that from Intel
Longhorn specs: 4-6GHz... PPC or what
And you guys want a 90nm chip in a laptop? Geeez. Just think of the G4 as a mobility chip!
Originally posted by fat freddy:
You're so right: Reuters
Interesting... and a shrewd move too IMO. Even though it is Intel, it's good to see a company who is willing to correct their direction *before* things get ugly, even if means completely scrapping their current roadmap.
Good on 'em I say.
C.
Originally posted by spliff monkey
Regarding the concern for a Powerbook upgrade I see little need for it at the moment. Perhaps marketing concerns will push apple to develop a G5 Powerbook quicker, but the idea that PC laptops are killing Powerbooks is pretty silly. I can understand if you'd say pc's are punchier (quicker to execute simpler commands) but in terms of number crunching the Mac have it in spades. I own a G3 Pismo 500 and a PIV 2.6 GHZ Vaio, each has a gig of ram and I use both interchangeably depending on my need and the Pismo at 1/4 the clock speed hold up very well to heavy 3d and video rendering in FCP, Lightwave and after effects just as well if not better than the VAIO. Truthfully the pc is junk and I wouldn't own it if I didn't need to, people need to look past the specs and get themselves some real world "practice" on these machines, for their purpose before they make vague blanket statements like pc laptops are better than apple's. Silly!
If you compare the performance of the fastest PC portables to Apple's, the current powerbooks get solidly trounced.
You can get 3.2GHz P4s from Toshiba, and you can even get a 3.4GHz P4 on an 800MHz from Alienware - see the Area-51m
Apple could easily put the same 2GHz (44.5 Watt) G5 that's in the Xserve into a case about as thick as my old wallstreet G3.
I'm getting sick of thin -- I want POWER in my Powerbook.
Originally posted by Concord
Interesting... and a shrewd move too IMO. Even though it is Intel, it's good to see a company who is willing to correct their direction *before* things get ugly, even if means completely scrapping their current roadmap.
Good on 'em I say.
C.
Before things get ugly
The thing is already ugly, it's called Prescott
They had no other choice
Intel, the SCO of microelectronics
bla...bla... bla.....puff
I'm getting sick of thin -- I want POWER in my Powerbook.
Speak for yourself... I just got back from Best Buy, and was rather disgusted that I couldn't find a PC laptop (other than the token Sony 12") that weighed less than 6.5 pounds, and it seemed most of them were approaching (if not exceeding) 8 pounds. And to top it off, they were all WAY too bulky. I'll stick with my 5 lb. 12" Powerbook, thankyewverymuch.
If Apple were to come out with a G5 "Heftybook", that'd be OK by me, so long as they didn't drop the small & light Powerbooks. After all, who in their right mind would want small & light in something designed to be portable?
Think about this, when the 17 was first released it was $3,299. It is now $2,799. We saw a similar price drop like this when the last of the G4 towers were released (the last rev before the G5s), and this scenario fits nicely with previous modus operandi from Apple.
Given what we know about the newer G5 chip and it's strained availability at its new process, in addition to the fact that the 17-inch form factor would be the most accommodating and forgiving relative to the G5's heat, I think my scenario is the closest to reality there is relative to any speculation about G5 PowerBooks at WWDC.
Now I don't know what the likelihood of anything like this coming from Apple at WWDC or this summer is. But I will tell you one thing, ask anyone who bought the first PowerBook with a SuperDrive from Apple in November who thought there would be 12- and 17-inch PowerBooks a few months later in January? And you would have a resounding, "No way in hell."
I'm sure Apple is not going to spend the entire WWDC demoing Tiger and Tiger's coding tools. While not much has been discussed about revolutionary new features in Tiger, it sounds to me like it's going to be a bland update. Much more so than 10.2 to 10.3 was. I also don't believe they are going to spend much time demoing towers that cannot reach 3.0GHz as was promised to members the year previously. I think that the PowerBook 17-inch at G5 is something that is feasible now, and if Apple chooses to woo developers, they just may put this thing out there. They will want momentum after this show, and this could provide the forward momentum they are looking for.
Then again, I could be off in left field again
Originally posted by Fat Freddy:
Before things get ugly
The thing is already ugly, it's called Prescott
Heh... good point.
Ugly is getting into Motorola territory...
Cheers,
C.
The bigger issue is that the processor is only one element in the machine. Current G5 support logic quickly makes up much of the power usage difference.
Since we are talking about a highly integrated G4 here the differrences could very well be more extreme. simply adding a Hypertransport interface and a memory interface to the G4 will give it a tremedous advantage over the 970FX in its current form.
As far as the 970 series goes I would not be surprised to find out that Apple and IBM are working on a portable version that provides some of the same benefits. There is still the question of power usage, but such a chip should see consderable advantage over the 970FX.
Dave
Originally posted by oldmacfan
I thought clock for clock that, that was already known.
It's five years since the 500 mhz intro' debacle and Apple are still dicking around with motorola cpus.
Business plan? What business plan?
The sooner they make a couple of billion from iPod and mate of iPod and the rest of the music/gadget family the future electronics based Apple has planned...the sooner they can just release 'X' on Intel processors and give up the Mac 'PPC' hardware ghost...
Yeesh. A year at 2 gig on the G5 (give or take a month...)
And no sign of the G5 in anything else?
What a **** poor start to the 'Mac' hardware year...
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by g3pro
Why the hell do people want G5s in laptops? You have massive power consumption and massive cooling requirements for the .09 micron part (due to massive leakage) and you want to put that into a low-power/low-circulation laptop.
Instead of wanting a modified G4 with low power consumption and lower heat output...
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for reinstilling hope in my 1.5Ghz 15" PB, hahahaha. All this talk about new technology makes me feel so obsolete---and i only bought this a week ago...!
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
Well, Some time ago Jobs hinted at the end of the year at best. I can't remember when he has ever delivered significantly ahead of any schedual he has publically set. He sets so few and i think it's a safe bet to beleive what he says over any rumors. So, I say MWSF at the earliest, i.e. announce and then wait 1-2 months. Otherwise, WWDC 2005.
I read the doom and gloom posts over at MacRumors on this topic. I really get the feeling it's mostly a bunch of young whiners who probably would complain that the G5 is too expensive to buy even if it did come out today.
It wasn't long ago that it was hard to imagine G4 above 1 GHz getting stuffed into a powerbook and even more so an iBook. The G5 will get in there one day, but I still think they are very good and useful machines without it.
People have stated that the Wintel laptops are kicking Apples behind. I can't comment since I won't and don't touch the things. Out of curiosity, I would be interested to hear from anyone who does use both as to the truth in that statement. Do the G4 really lag that far behind? Whatever the answer, it won't seperate me from my alu-baby.