Zaphod's right- nothing really to do with what we were talking about. As far as my question- I'm leaning towards "No." But I think we can argue the Iraqi war certainly endangers our troops around the world by stretching our military resources too thin. I don't know though. I'm wading into territory I'm admittedly unfamiliar with. Definitely open to persuasion.
The fact is that because this guy was an NFL player it's making people question questioning. That's silly. This could have been the best soldier fighting for the best cause and dying in the most honorable way imaginable, but I still say hell yes question it.
Bullshit. He was a volunteer in the truest sense of the word. It had nothing to do with socioeconomic conditions like so many recruits these days. It had nothing to do with signing up for a college education and hoping no war breaks out. And bullshit he wasn't misguided.
Tillman's more important because he wasn't poor?
If I misunderstood the original point, I'm sorry. But I'm really not sure why any special percautions should be taken because this guy was an NFL player. I also find it ironic that even though some people are pissed that the media mentioned it, TWO people here started a thread on it.
Sorry it isn't PC enough for you but yes--however I wouldn't say important but rather significant.. He wasn't forced into it by socioeconomic factors like many soldiers are. Yes, those soldiers sacrifices are still way up there on the scale of heroic deeds but if you ask how many of them REALLY wanted to be there I doubt you'd find a very high percentage.
Tillman, as stated previously, was a volunteer in the TRUEST sense of the word. Yes, that does make his sacrifice more significant. Nothing forced his hand other than his own drive to do what he felt was right. Not college money. Not supporting the wife and kid. Not a lack of education and skill to do any other job. It was ENTIRELY HIS CHOICE.
Sorry it isn't PC enough for you but yes--however I wouldn't say important but rather significant..
He's no different than the average dead Afghanistani or Iraqi if you ask me. Actually, he knew he was joining the side with the mostest, bestest guns so their deaths are even more significant than Tillman's.
He's no different than the average dead Afghanistani or Iraqi if you ask me. Actually, he knew he was joining the side with the mostest, bestest guns so their deaths are even more significant than Tillman's.
I thought in libertarian land everything is about personal choice. So that poor people can't make appeals to their situation, but must look to their choices.
But now come to find out, according to you, that poor people's sacrifice in war have less nobility than someone who could afford to do otherwise because the poor are constrained by their circumstance, whereas the affluent are not.
I thought in libertarian land everything is about personal choice. So that poor people can't make appeals to their situation, but must look to their choices.
But now come to find out, according to you, that poor people's sacrifice in war have less nobility than someone who could afford to do otherwise because the poor are constrained by their circumstance, whereas the affluent are not.
I see, ignore an argument that backs you into a corner.
You say the choice is what's important. I say the choice a suicide bomber in Israel makes a much more difficult choice than Tillman. So, where would you stand on that issue? Blowing up a border guard and killing yourself in the process is certainly more important than joining the 'invincible' side of a war. Or scoring a touchdown.
You say the choice is what's important. I say the choice a suicide bomber in Israel makes a much more difficult choice than Tillman. So, where would you stand on that issue? Blowing up a border guard and killing yourself in the process is certainly more important than joining the 'invincible' side of a war. Or scoring a touchdown.
Bullshit. These people have been brainwashed to believe they will be rewarded in heaven and their family rewarded upon their glorious deaths. They're lives suck ass. It isn't that hard a choice.
Bullshit. These people have been brainwashed to believe they will be rewarded in heaven and their family rewarded upon their glorious deaths. They're lives suck ass. It isn't that hard a choice.
Sad: it seems that Tillman 'probably' was killed by friendly fire: ARTICLE
Yeah, I love that they plasted that 'probably' all over EVERY article. CNN, NYT, FOX etc.
My wife said how tragic it was. I replied, 'tragic, TRAGIC, what is TRAGIC is that it takes a millionaire getting shot by the GOOD guys to make the news. Don't talk to ME about tragedy.'
Good men are killed every day in Iraq. Bad men too. In either case you hardly see so much as a footnote these days. "Another attack in Bagdad today kills 8, story at eleven". To even get sentence on the 'top stories' page a guy has got to have given up a lucrative career in pro sports getting paid a fortune. How about the poor schmo who signed up to defend his country from all threats foreign AND DOMESTIC? How about his two children who he'll never see again? How about his wife who is left with nothing but a flag? A flag, which in MOST parts of the world is regularly burned and scored.
Some legacy. Some future. Remind her to name her kids after the people who were *real* heroes....
My wife said how tragic it was. I replied, 'tragic, TRAGIC, what is TRAGIC is that it takes a millionaire getting shot by the GOOD guys to make the news. Don't talk to ME about tragedy.'
Good to see it's easy for you to be unnecessarily belligerent and disrespectful to your wife. I'm sure she appreciates you posting the play by play.
Good to see it's easy for you to be unnecessarily belligerent and disrespectful to your wife. I'm sure she appreciates you posting the play by play.
Buzz off. It's a valid point. She wasn't insulted at all, nor is anybody who has an open mind to the issue. She certainly doesn't mind the play by play as you called it since it was in the vein of simply relaying a comment I made to someone else to you. I was demonstrating the 'average joe' first reaction to the news of freindly fire. Then I went on to explain how *I* saw the news instead. Nobody was insulted, nobody was 'disrespected'. And guess what? We actually *added* something to the discussion.
Comments
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Zaphod's right- nothing really to do with what we were talking about. As far as my question- I'm leaning towards "No." But I think we can argue the Iraqi war certainly endangers our troops around the world by stretching our military resources too thin. I don't know though. I'm wading into territory I'm admittedly unfamiliar with. Definitely open to persuasion.
The fact is that because this guy was an NFL player it's making people question questioning. That's silly. This could have been the best soldier fighting for the best cause and dying in the most honorable way imaginable, but I still say hell yes question it.
Originally posted by BR
Bullshit. He was a volunteer in the truest sense of the word. It had nothing to do with socioeconomic conditions like so many recruits these days. It had nothing to do with signing up for a college education and hoping no war breaks out. And bullshit he wasn't misguided.
Tillman's more important because he wasn't poor?
If I misunderstood the original point, I'm sorry. But I'm really not sure why any special percautions should be taken because this guy was an NFL player. I also find it ironic that even though some people are pissed that the media mentioned it, TWO people here started a thread on it.
Originally posted by bunge
Tillman's more important because he wasn't poor?
Sorry it isn't PC enough for you but yes--however I wouldn't say important but rather significant.. He wasn't forced into it by socioeconomic factors like many soldiers are. Yes, those soldiers sacrifices are still way up there on the scale of heroic deeds but if you ask how many of them REALLY wanted to be there I doubt you'd find a very high percentage.
Tillman, as stated previously, was a volunteer in the TRUEST sense of the word. Yes, that does make his sacrifice more significant. Nothing forced his hand other than his own drive to do what he felt was right. Not college money. Not supporting the wife and kid. Not a lack of education and skill to do any other job. It was ENTIRELY HIS CHOICE.
Originally posted by BR
Sorry it isn't PC enough for you but yes--however I wouldn't say important but rather significant..
He's no different than the average dead Afghanistani or Iraqi if you ask me. Actually, he knew he was joining the side with the mostest, bestest guns so their deaths are even more significant than Tillman's.
Originally posted by bunge
He's no different than the average dead Afghanistani or Iraqi if you ask me. Actually, he knew he was joining the side with the mostest, bestest guns so their deaths are even more significant than Tillman's.
Change the subject. I see how it works.
Originally posted by BR
Change the subject. I see how it works.
Don't see how that's changing the subject...
But I will change it now.
I thought in libertarian land everything is about personal choice. So that poor people can't make appeals to their situation, but must look to their choices.
But now come to find out, according to you, that poor people's sacrifice in war have less nobility than someone who could afford to do otherwise because the poor are constrained by their circumstance, whereas the affluent are not.
Which is it?
Originally posted by addabox
Don't see how that's changing the subject...
But I will change it now.
I thought in libertarian land everything is about personal choice. So that poor people can't make appeals to their situation, but must look to their choices.
But now come to find out, according to you, that poor people's sacrifice in war have less nobility than someone who could afford to do otherwise because the poor are constrained by their circumstance, whereas the affluent are not.
Which is it?
The world isn't black and white my friend.
Originally posted by BR
The world isn't black and white my friend.
I see, ignore an argument that backs you into a corner.
You say the choice is what's important. I say the choice a suicide bomber in Israel makes a much more difficult choice than Tillman. So, where would you stand on that issue? Blowing up a border guard and killing yourself in the process is certainly more important than joining the 'invincible' side of a war. Or scoring a touchdown.
Originally posted by bunge
I see, ignore an argument that backs you into a corner.
Nope. The world simply is not black and white. I look at one issue at a time. I was not backed into any corner.
Originally posted by bunge
You say the choice is what's important. I say the choice a suicide bomber in Israel makes a much more difficult choice than Tillman. So, where would you stand on that issue? Blowing up a border guard and killing yourself in the process is certainly more important than joining the 'invincible' side of a war. Or scoring a touchdown.
Bullshit. These people have been brainwashed to believe they will be rewarded in heaven and their family rewarded upon their glorious deaths. They're lives suck ass. It isn't that hard a choice.
Originally posted by BR
Bullshit. These people have been brainwashed to believe they will be rewarded in heaven and their family rewarded upon their glorious deaths. They're lives suck ass. It isn't that hard a choice.
Was Tillman Christian?
Originally posted by pfflam
Sad: it seems that Tillman 'probably' was killed by friendly fire: ARTICLE
Yeah, I love that they plasted that 'probably' all over EVERY article. CNN, NYT, FOX etc.
My wife said how tragic it was. I replied, 'tragic, TRAGIC, what is TRAGIC is that it takes a millionaire getting shot by the GOOD guys to make the news. Don't talk to ME about tragedy.'
Good men are killed every day in Iraq. Bad men too. In either case you hardly see so much as a footnote these days. "Another attack in Bagdad today kills 8, story at eleven". To even get sentence on the 'top stories' page a guy has got to have given up a lucrative career in pro sports getting paid a fortune. How about the poor schmo who signed up to defend his country from all threats foreign AND DOMESTIC? How about his two children who he'll never see again? How about his wife who is left with nothing but a flag? A flag, which in MOST parts of the world is regularly burned and scored.
Some legacy. Some future. Remind her to name her kids after the people who were *real* heroes....
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
My wife said how tragic it was. I replied, 'tragic, TRAGIC, what is TRAGIC is that it takes a millionaire getting shot by the GOOD guys to make the news. Don't talk to ME about tragedy.'
Good to see it's easy for you to be unnecessarily belligerent and disrespectful to your wife. I'm sure she appreciates you posting the play by play.
Originally posted by rageous
Good to see it's easy for you to be unnecessarily belligerent and disrespectful to your wife. I'm sure she appreciates you posting the play by play.
Buzz off. It's a valid point. She wasn't insulted at all, nor is anybody who has an open mind to the issue. She certainly doesn't mind the play by play as you called it since it was in the vein of simply relaying a comment I made to someone else to you. I was demonstrating the 'average joe' first reaction to the news of freindly fire. Then I went on to explain how *I* saw the news instead. Nobody was insulted, nobody was 'disrespected'. And guess what? We actually *added* something to the discussion.