this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners

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Comments

  • Reply 161 of 578
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Story in the Gaurdian on systemic abuse.



    Quote:

    The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.



    The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.



    One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."



    The evidence, though scattered for now, really does seem to indicate that these "interrogation" techniques were installed, if haphazardly, by MI and CIA personnel and administered by under or untrained regular army.



    Apparently the "9/11" Gitmo model-- everyone is a terrorist until proven otherwise, the honor of the US grants it a "beyond the law" status, "breaking down" detainees is crucial to saving American lives-- was brought wholesale into Iraq. Perhaps the administration believes its own lies about the connections between Iraq and al Qaeda, and just figured there would be no problem with really stomping on "terrorists".
  • Reply 162 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?



    Anyway, I will reply to all of you in one post. OK?



    You all seem to think that you know what is best for the world and that your vision is pure as driven snow and anything that America does is wrong. Some of you here more than others.



    Once again, all I here is US bad, everyone else good.



    That is what you are all promoting here and in other threads.



    I think you need to examine your viewpoints to see what side you consistently come down on. It is pretty scary stuff, I know, but you might want to consider it.



    Of course, many of you do not want to differentiate right and wrong, so in your case, I am not even sure what motivates you.



    For all of you political parrots, it is really becoming monotonous and you will find that more and more people will ignore you because of it. I guess if you say it is Bush's fault enough it will become true. Keep telling yourself that, if you must.



    This place needs an enema. Badly.
  • Reply 163 of 578
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?



    Anyway, I will reply to all of you in one post. OK?



    You all seem to think that you know what is best for the world and that your vision is pure as driven snow and anything that America does is wrong. Some of you here more than others.



    Once again, all I here is US bad, everyone else good.



    That is what you are all promoting here and in other threads.



    I think you need to examine your viewpoints to see what side you consistently come down on. It is pretty scary stuff, I know, but you might want to consider it.



    Of course, many of you do not want to differentiate right and wrong, so in your case, I am not even sure what motivates you.



    For all of you political parrots, it is really becoming monotonous and you will find that more and more people will ignore you because of it. I guess if you say it is Bush's fault enough it will become true. Keep telling yourself that, if you must.



    This place needs an enema. Badly.




    Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.



    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.



    What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.



    The evidence at hand suggests that this is a far worse problem than "a few bad eggs" running amuck. The evidence at hand suggests that somewhere in the chain of command the abuse of foreign prisoners has become normalized, and the "breaking" of detainees has become a matter of policy. I'm afraid that the post 9/11 mindset, that anyone who even could be a "terrorist" has no right to be treated as a human being, has come home to roost.



    It doesn't f*cking matter what Saddam did.



    We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".



    To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.



    Let me say that again: you Naples, are the one speaking in the traitor's voice. The voice that apparently hates America. That hates our values. That hates our justice. That hates our open society and its rule of law.



    You've thrown it all over and signed up with an ideology instead. The ideology of "liberals are always wrong". So that no matter how appalling the lapse, you can be counted on to defend, not the core beliefs of the country I love, but the core beliefs of an angry minority that cannot allow for criticism coming from "the left" to be right, ever, ever, ever.



    Your ideology is a cancer on my country. i refuse to allow this distorted and craven indifference to betrayal of our values parade itself as "patriotism" any longer. It is not.
  • Reply 164 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.



    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.



    What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.



    The evidence at hand suggests that this is a far worse problem than "a few bad eggs" running amuck. The evidence at hand suggests that somewhere in the chain of command the abuse of foreign prisoners has become normalized, and the "breaking" of detainees has become a matter of policy. I'm afraid that the post 9/11 mindset, that anyone who even could be a "terrorist" has no right to be treated as a human being, has come home to roost.



    It doesn't f*cking matter what Saddam did.



    We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".



    To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.



    Let me say that again: you Naples, are the traitor. You are the one that apparently hates America. You hate our values. You hate our justice. You hate our open society and it's rule of law.



    You've thrown it all over and signed up with an ideology instead. The ideology of "liberals are always wrong". So that no matter how appalling the lapse, you can be counted on to defend, not the core beliefs of the country I love, but the core beliefs of an angry minority that cannot allow for criticism coming from "the left" to be right, ever, ever, ever.



    Your ideology is a cancer on my country. i refuse to allow this distorted and craven indifference to betrayal of our values parade itself as "patriotism" any longer. It is not.




    I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.
  • Reply 165 of 578
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?



    Here, I'll cut and paste. You tell us were you said these incidents were bad.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX All of you people are ridiculous. This is a controversy that is almost 8 months old.



    The military has investigated and is prosecuting those that have done these things. The military also made changes to the way things are done there.



    I have brought up repeatedly the atrocities committed by SH, only to be dismissed and marginalized by many of the same people raising a fuss of this comparably minor issue.



    Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death.



    Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!



    Selective outrage and fake compassion.



    You all should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.



    I highlighted what you probably consider a mention of these incidents and how wrong they were, but you also peppered your respons with administration apologies and offhand explanations. No one put words in your mouth you put them there your self when you said a broomstick up the but wasn't as bad as we think it is. Get off your "you guys are not reading my post" high horse and read what you posted yourself.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.



    Again, no real mention of wrongdoing on the part of the US.



    How many times are you going to apologiz for this war and this administration?
  • Reply 166 of 578
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.



    This is the first time I have ever described myself as such on these boards, and only do so now because I want to reclaim the language from the nasty company it has been keeping as of late.
  • Reply 167 of 578
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.



    I worry about those who blindly apologize for the actions of a corrupt group of ideologs that are not in touch with reality. We will be greeted with flowers say Pearle...
  • Reply 168 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    Here, I'll cut and paste. You tell us were you said these incidents were bad.







    I highlighted what you probably consider a mention of these incidents and how wrong they were, but you also peppered your respons with administration apologies and offhand explanations. No one put words in your mouth you put them there your self when you said a broomstick up the but wasn't as bad as we think it is. Get off your "you guys are not reading my post" high horse and read what you posted yourself.







    Again, no real mention of wrongdoing on the part of the US.



    How many times are you going to apologiz for this war and this administration?




    I have been very consistent and clear. Parse away if you must.



    How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers? How many time will you side with them? How many times will you hold views that benefit their interests? How many times will you attack yourself?



    You do realize that we are a government of for and by the people. You constantly down your own community and family when you attack this government.



    Equating what this handful of sick bastards did with the entire US philosophy is just insulting. I personally do not know anyone that would do these kinds of things. Nor would I personally let anyone I know get away with it if they did. My friends and family are in no way like these people who committed these offenses. Are you saying your circle does these things?



    You can try to say that this is US way of doing things but you are insulting a myriad of US citizens when you do, and I am sick of it.



    Your attitude toward my fellow humans and family sickens me. You are in no way looking out for this country, world or anyone else by hiding behind some self appointed patriotism.



    Excuse me while I throw up!
  • Reply 169 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    This post should win an award.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.



    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.




    This bit should win a cash prize.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".



    To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.





  • Reply 170 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers? How many time will you side with them? How many times will you hold views that benefit their interests? How many times will you attack yourself?



    No.



    How many times will you apologise for torturers and murderers?



    Addabox doesn't think that torture and murder are compatible with American values and you have the sauce to call him anti-American.



    Nice.
  • Reply 171 of 578
    zarathustrazarathustra Posts: 264member
    I guess peope like NaplesX couldn't give a damn anyway, 'cos he'd just as soon have everyone as an enemy as acknowledge when his country is wrong...but I'm about one Addabox post from joining the ranks of the Anti-American.



    Quote:

    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.



    Please keep posting Addabox. We need to hear what you have to say.
  • Reply 172 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Zarathustra

    I guess peope like NaplesX couldn't give a damn anyway, 'cos he'd just as soon have everyone as an enemy as acknowledge when his country is wrong...but I'm about one Addabox post from joining the ranks of the Anti-American.







    Please keep posting Addabox. We need to hear what you have to say.




    The US does plenty of things wrong. So what is your point? Don't you?



    As a rule here we tend to correct issues when they come up. It is the nature of a democracy. If bush was wrong then he will be removed and Kerry will have a chance to set it right and so on and so on.
  • Reply 173 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.



    What makes you a patriot?

    posting on AO is not a requirement the last i checked.



    Citizen of what?



    I also expect values to be lived up to, but I do not blame political opponents for things that were not in their control.



    Honesty based on what standard?



    That statement was full of wiggle room.



    Help me out and clarify.
  • Reply 174 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    The US does plenty of things wrong. So what is your point? Don't you?



    As a rule here we tend to correct issues when they come up. It is the nature of a democracy. If bush was wrong then he will be removed and Kerry will have a chance to set it right and so on and so on.




    This reminds me of something George Bush said during his interview with al-Arabya television this week. He said "It?s also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made."



    My first reaction, of course, was to think -what's he talking about? Iraq's not a democracy since its governor is unelected and these actions weren't committed by Iraqi police who might lose their jobs, but by American soldiers, since last time I saw the news Iraq's still under occupation.



    So why did he say it? Was it for the Arabic-speaking viewers? For the electorate at home? Or was it because, for him, 'democracy' means 'not a dictatorship', in which case he genuinely doesn't know what the word means?



    I don't know why this made me as... not upset, but something as it did.
  • Reply 175 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah

    This reminds me of something George Bush said during his interview with al-Arabya television this week. He said "It?s also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made."



    My first reaction, of course, was to think -what's he talking about? Iraq's not a democracy since its governor is unelected and these actions weren't committed by Iraqi police who might lose their jobs, but by American soldiers, since last time I saw the news Iraq's still under occupation.



    So why did he say it? Was it for the Arabic-speaking viewers? For the electorate at home? Or was it because, for him, 'democracy' means 'not a dictatorship', in which case he genuinely doesn't know what the word means?



    I don't know why this made me as... not upset, but something as it did.




    IRAQ is under US control all operations and people there are under the umbrella of the US democracy. That is why he said that.



    Come on.
  • Reply 176 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:

    I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.





    Can anyone here help me? Where, exactly, is the 'wiggle room' in this statement? I'm confused.



    I thought to call oneself 'a patriot' and 'a citizen' was pretty damn fucking unequivocal, but now I'm not so sure. NaplesX is forcing me to re-evaluate my position over the definition of a word.



    Hey ho. I guess even a word like 'is' might have any number of nuanced definitions.



    Patriot.

    Citizen.

    Twat.



    Oh I don't know.
  • Reply 177 of 578
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    What makes you a patriot?

    posting on AO is not a requirement the last i checked.



    Citizen of what?



    I also expect values to be lived up to, but I do not blame political opponents for things that were not in their control.



    Honesty based on what standard?



    That statement was full of wiggle room.



    Help me out and clarify.




    "Wiggle room"? Like if my post doesn't "hold up" I can claim that I meant I was a citizen of Sri Lanka?



    I can't help you out and I can't see that anything needs clarification.
  • Reply 178 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah



    Can anyone here help me? Where, exactly, is the 'wiggle room' in this statement? I'm confused.



    I thought to call oneself 'a patriot' and 'a citizen' was pretty damn fucking unequivocal, but now I'm not so sure. NaplesX is forcing me to re-evaluate my position over the definition of a word.



    Hey ho. I guess even a word like 'is' might have any number of nuanced definitions.



    Patriot.

    Citizen.

    Twat.



    Oh I don't know. [/B]



    Patriot - One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. According to webster's.



    We are all citizens of something.



    His statement could apply to anyone of any number of people from any number of countries. There is where the wiggle room is.



    It is extremely vague while seeming just the opposite. Maybe I am wrong.



    What is wrong with some clarity?
  • Reply 179 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Um. Yeeees.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    Patriot - One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. According to webster's.



    We are all citizens of something.



    His statement could apply to anyone of any number of people from any number of countries. There is where the wiggle room is.



    It is extremely vague while seeming just the opposite. Maybe I am wrong.



    What is wrong with some clarity?




    When I read his post, in which he was talking about upholding the values - American values - he held so dearly, I must admit I wondered at first if he was an American citizen.



    And when he wrote, in the same post:



    Quote:



    We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".






    my immediate reaction was "Ah. He's a Swiss citizen."



    And then I banged my head against the corner of my desk until I broke open the front of my skull, to, you know, let the demons out, and then it was clear.
  • Reply 180 of 578
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    Let me say that again: you Naples, are the one speaking in the traitor's voice. The voice that apparently hates America. That hates our values. That hates our justice. That hates our open society and its rule of law.



    Swiss.



    Definitely.
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