this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners

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Comments

  • Reply 141 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    New pics...100's maybe 1000's more apparently...







    New torture outrage



    Can we please hang/shoot this traitor, Lynndie England? She's going to contribute to more U.S. troop deaths than Bush or insurgents did. Trial and execution please.



    We are going to need to start a versioning system for these abuse allegations...
  • Reply 142 of 578
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq

    I'm saying is there not another leader that can rally credible opposition to the US's current foreign policy? Our only choices are gung-ho Blairs, meek tag-alongs like the rest of the nameless, unremarkable leaders of the other countries of the <cough> "Coalition of the <hack> Willing" and people who talk a good talk (Spain/Germany/France) as far as opposing the war but never seem to really do anything about it.



    I essence, keeping out of it and letting the US burn their fingers is the current opposition. There is no chance in hell Germany or France will openly confront the US in Iraq - in all likelyhood this would make things even worse.



    This is a very quiet and unremarkable way to do it (too quiet for my taste), but it has succeeded in Spain and - to a lesser degree - Poland reconsidering their choices. Italy as the last mainland power supporting the US is currenty in deep political crisis - I would not be surprised if they leave the coalition within a month.



    Quote:

    Ok, Bush sucks, we get it, we get it. Now what? I'd love the U.S. to fix things but at some point when do the rest of the countries take initiative?



    As the US is the dominant superpower there is not a terrible lot, the rest of the world can do if the US does not let them. Furthermore, according to the Hague war treaty and the Geneva convetion, the US are the legit rulers of Iraq - the must approve any action taken.



    I think the blind believe the US (or any other country) can "fix" up things anywhere is part and parcel of the current desaster. Different countries, different rules and people will react differenty even to the same proposal dependent on who issues it. I secretly fear that the war has destabilized Iraq to the point where no one can do a terrible lot to prevent it from sliding into anarchy, civil war or dictatorship. If there is anything that can be done, it needs to be done multilaterally - to which the US has to issue a "go".







    Quote:

    Why is leaving when it is a quagmire a good thing? I Would think Spain could buddy up with Iraqi leadership and have the Spanish troops repositioned and reassigned to humanitarian efforts



    It is a good thing, because the population of Spain was against invading Iraq right from the beginning. Aznar disregarded the voice of his people - correcting this is good democratic practice.

    And, don't forget: at one point, no one is going to believe you any longer. You associate with torturers, your image is dragged into the mud too. Furthermore, I never had the impression that Spain had real influence. They provide 3% of the number of troops the US does, so all they are allowed to do is nod their heads.
  • Reply 143 of 578
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq

    Can we please hang/shoot this traitor, Lynndie England? She's going to contribute to more U.S. troop deaths than Bush or insurgents did. Trial and execution please.



    It's crystal clear at this point that it was a systematic problem and that they were told to do this. This was not something they independently thought up and decided to do for shits and giggles.



    And to add a picture:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/blo..._Picture_2.jpg
  • Reply 144 of 578
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by giant

    It's crystal clear at this point that it was a systematic problem and that they were told to do this. This was not something they independently thought up and decided to do for shits and giggles.



    Holding the individuals in the pictures accountable for their own actions is not some tactic to avoid blaming people higher up, as people seem to suggest it is. "Following orders" is no excuse. No one ordered them to visibly enjoy the torture and laugh and have a great time. They were told to do it and they enjoyed doing it for whatever sick power-trip reasons they have.



    People seem to be ready to shrug off the perpetrators in the pictures as being mere pawns, just because it is sooo much more juicy to be able to instead put the heat on people higher up the chain.



    But I don't want to let anyone off the hook. If it is systemic, heads roll all over. "Systemic" doesn't mean just Rumsfeld and Bush but not Lynndie England and her ilk.
  • Reply 145 of 578
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    In an article by Robert Bastian in today's L.A. Times, the author mentions two experiments conducted in the 1970s mention of which is both relevant and timely.



    extracted:



    Quote:

    In terms of aspirations, Bush is certainly correct: Americans generally do not regard themselves as arrogant, abusive, violent, mean, petty and ignoble. As a matter of empirical, verifiable fact, however, the best social scientific evidence suggests that the president is simply wrong on both counts.



    In 1971, for example, Stanford psychology professor Philip G. Zimbardo initiated an experiment in which participating Stanford students were designated either as prisoners or guards, with guards told to maintain order. After only a few days, the project had to be terminated prematurely because the guards were, with no apparent motivation other than fulfilling their roles, becoming uncomfortably abusive toward the prisoners. What does that say about our "nature"?



    In another famous experiment, Yale psychology professor Stanley Milgram told subjects to give electric shocks to a victim in a learning experiment. As the victim ? an actor in another room who was not actually being shocked ? gave incorrect answers, the participants were asked to turn the voltage up, even to where the dial read "danger," a point at which the victim could be heard screaming. Although often reluctant, two-thirds of the subjects continued to follow orders to administer shocks.



    ----snip----



    No less a figure than Winston Churchill famously said that "treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilization of any country." If Churchill is right, so, at the moment, are America's critics.



    Whole article here:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions



    if registered



    Not the way we do things in America? Wrong. Looks like its the way the entire world does things, another ugly part of human nature.



  • Reply 146 of 578
    kneelbeforezodkneelbeforezod Posts: 1,120member
    LA Times user ID from BugMeNot.com



    ID: waxyorg

    PW: waxyorg
  • Reply 147 of 578
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq

    People seem to be ready to shrug off the perpetrators in the pictures as being mere pawns, just because it is sooo much more juicy to be able to instead put the heat on people higher up the chain.



    Well, that 'people,' whomever they may be, does not include me.



    There are problems with this situation along the whole chain, but the problems are not all the same.



    Some of the problems with the highest leadership are discussed here:



    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._05/003853.php



    As for the individual soldiers, we need to deal with it on an individual basis. Soldiers are out there being ordered to kill, and by nature some of them will get a kick out of it. Normal moral rules don't apply in the same way. And these folks were not trained to deal with prisoners. If they were ordered to do these things to get them ready for interrogation, it is not far-off to expect them to follow orders they don't necessarily understand or agree with.



    This isn't to say that nothing should happen to the reservists, but this is much more complex than just blaming them or Bush.



    Quote:

    But I don't want to let anyone off the hook. If it is systemic, heads roll all over. "Systemic" doesn't mean just Rumsfeld and Bush but not Lynndie England and her ilk.



    Those are just the two well-known end links in a long chain of command.



    We agree.
  • Reply 148 of 578
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair's personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday.



    The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true."



    ...



    "She was held for about six weeks without charge," the envoy told Wednesday's Evening Standard newspaper. "During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey. A harness was put on her, and an American rode on her back."



    Clwyd said the woman has recovered physically but remains traumatized.



    "I am satisfied the case has now been resolved satisfactorily," the envoy told British Broadcasting Corp. radio Wednesday. "She got a visit last week from the authorities, and she is about to have her papers and jewelry returned to her."



    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...buse&printer=1 via tpm
  • Reply 149 of 578
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    We keep hearing from admin officials and media commentators that the torture and abuse of Iraqi POWs are 'isolated incidents' and do not represent the 'way we do things'. The ICRC has now squashed that one flat:



    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._redcross_dc_1



    Quote:

    "Our findings do not allow us to conclude that what we were dealing with at Abu Ghraib were isolated acts of individual members of coalition forces. What we have described is a pattern and a broad system,"



    Bush also said recently that he was "appalled" by the recent revelations. How odd. There have been articles on Reuters and elsewhere detailing POW abuse from nearly a year back. Either the President is extraordinarily ill-informed, or he is lying, yet again.
  • Reply 150 of 578
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    The US has never had lower respect here. not even during Vietnam.



    And I can certainly confirm this from the U.K. perspective, and I am not talking Tony Bliar here.



    Someone at a big dinner party (mainly professional people, and some intelligentsia) I went to the other day said, "You just can't take the Americans seriously any more", and just about everyone around the table nodded his head. If I were American I would be *very* concerned, as indeed were the Americans present at same party.



    - T. I.
  • Reply 151 of 578
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Quote:

    The pictures I've seen depict conduct - behaviour that is so brutal and so cruel and so inhumane that anyone engaged in it or involved in it would have to be brought to justice



    Donald Rumsfeld



    Some more quotes from Rumsfeld :



    Quote:



    There were also "many more photographs and indeed some videos" to come, he warned.



    Mr Rumsfeld recognised that his department had been slow to notify Congress about the allegations, but denied that there had been any attempt at a cover-up.



    He said reports of abuse had been properly investigated and reported by the military.



    He added that he had not realised the seriousness of the allegations until pictures were leaked to journalists.



    Mr Rumsfeld told senators: "I failed to recognise how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including to the president and members of Congress."



    "I wish I had been able to convey to them the gravity of this before we saw it in the media."




    BBC link here



    I think it's a disaster for the future of Iraq. This events have totally screwed up the reputation of US army in Iraq. It will be very difficult to fix this.
  • Reply 152 of 578
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Powerdoc

    Donald Rumsfeld

    I think it's a disaster for the future of Iraq. This events have totally screwed up the reputation of US army in Iraq. It will be very difficult to fix this.






    Totally. I listened to the hearings. Donald seemed very, very down and out in the beginning (I know he hates being in these hearings). After Mcain's questioning the ol' Rummy seemed to return...to his embarrassment (CHAIN OF COMMAND? haven't got the charts? Haven't SEEN the other evidence? Haven't a CLUE as to why the Red Cross has been stating that this SHIT has been going on for over a year?!). Even his cronies in the pentagon could help him out of this ever deepening hole.



    He was a broken man after these hearings...he's not going to be Secretary for very long and he Goddamn knows it...hear that telling pause in his response to this question as to whether he SHOULD resign? Put a fork in him...he's done. He'll be the first and Powell will be next (he'll just do it to save his righteous ass).



    This administration is falling apart (what about Bush/Cheney? That'll be the next turn of the page...in November). This country is falling apart. We are definitely fucked...and nothing...except total withdraw from Iraq will give us some respect from the total embarrassment this incident has caused in the long run.



    /goodnight...let's all hope there will be a new, bright day in America's future again...someday...





    A good assessment of the hearings...and Rumsfeld's fate...
  • Reply 153 of 578
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    I still say the generals that encouraged this, and the soldiers that did this, should all be hanged if they're found guilty. We have capital punishment, we should use it.
  • Reply 154 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    All of you people are ridiculous. This is a controversy that is almost 8 months old.



    The military has investigated and is prosecuting those that have done these things. The military also made changes to the way things are done there.



    I have brought up repeatedly the atrocities committed by SH, only to be dismissed and marginalized by many of the same people raising a fuss of this comparably minor issue.



    Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death.



    Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!



    Selective outrage and fake compassion.



    You all should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
  • Reply 155 of 578
    thegeldingthegelding Posts: 3,230member
    rape and murder now by americans...



    yes, selective outrage...ha



    i was all for a bullet in saddamit's head (read my posts before the war) but not for a war against iraq...and now the argument of "it is better than what saddamit did" is being thrown about by the repugs...



    but we say we can nation build, that we can decide what leaders are allowed in this or that country BECAUSE we are just, fair, a "good" nation concerned only with freedom and truth...



    but now we say, "yeah, bad things happen, but at least we are better than a mass murderer like saddamit"...



    yeah, thank god we are only raping and killing individuals and not wiping out whole families by dropping bombs on them (oh, have we done that too?)



    but at least the iraqi people like us more now that we have freed them



    this has all (sadly) been one big shitfest...but, hey, no biggie for me...me and my family are safe and happy and have not seen one change or hardship since this has all started...tis great to be american... truly very happy about that...



    g
  • Reply 156 of 578
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by thegelding

    rape and murder now by americans...



    yes, selective outrage...ha



    i was all for a bullet in saddamit's head (read my posts before the war) but not for a war against iraq...and now the argument of "it is better than what saddamit did" is being thrown about by the repugs...



    but we say we can nation build, that we can decide what leaders are allowed in this or that country BECAUSE we are just, fair, a "good" nation concerned only with freedom and truth...



    but now we say, "yeah, bad things happen, but at least we are better than a mass murderer like saddamit"...



    yeah, thank god we are only raping and killing individuals and not wiping out whole families by dropping bombs on them (oh, have we done that too?)



    but at least the iraqi people like us more now that we have freed them



    this has all (sadly) been one big shitfest...but, hey, no biggie for me...me and my family are safe and happy and have not seen one change or hardship since this has all started...tis great to be american... truly very happy about that...



    g




    The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests. Plus, these people were and are being dealt with swiftly and publicly, something you won't see among the terrorists and thugs. There is no cover up here.



    Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.
  • Reply 157 of 578
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!



    Firstly, how do you know that these people are 'criminals and terrorists'? Since they weren't tried.



    To the point. This isn't a question of degree. Your country's armed forces got caught out acting like the guy they went in to get rid of. And you're here arguing as a defence, with a straight face, "we're not as bad as Saddam because we don't use plastic shredders."
  • Reply 158 of 578
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests.



    From the BBC (and a million other sources):



    "The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Friday that the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners in US custody was not limited to isolated cases but formed part of a systematic pattern.



    An ICRC spokesman said the committee had been warning the US about such cases for more than a year."



    Deal with it.
  • Reply 159 of 578
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!



    Selective outrage and fake compassion.




    Selective outrage and fake compassion, indeed.

    I really love those "yeah this is evil, but..."-sentences. They are telltale of the wish to make it go away, cover it up, deny it. Rummie and Bush are spouting them all over the places - makes for a very creditable apology, allright.



    However, it is interesting that you are comparing Hamas and the US in this way - so you believe they are basically playing in the same league, only difference is terrorist group leaders don't step down or offer an apology? Obviously it is neither the methods (bombing and incinerating innocents - go ask some Iraquis about the war) nor the body count (estimated to be well in the thousand innocents in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan). So, if Rummie and Bush do not step down, they are leaders of a terrorist bunch?
  • Reply 160 of 578
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests. Plus, these people were and are being dealt with swiftly and publicly, something you won't see among the terrorists and thugs. There is no cover up here.



    Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.




    No, they were not being delt with swiftly. These occurances were noted as early as mid January yet no actions were taken until the photos appeared on 60 minutes 2 last week. Wise up and pay attention to the news. This would never have been delt with because of the negative political ramifications except fot the media coverage. A handful of boots may have eventually been repremanded but this problem goes much higher. Look at McCains questioning of Rumsfeld yesterday FGS. McCaiin asked a simple "Who's in charge" question but Rummy couldn't answer. Why, because of the poor pentagon oversight and merc outsourcing. MI should not have been in charge of a facility already under the oversight of MP yet there they were. This is a systematic problem whether you like it or not. Just as Tailhook showed a systematic treatment of women in the military this shows a systematic disregard for the Geneva Convention concerning the fair treatment of prisoners.



    Wise up there killer. Those that would bring us a bad name currently reside in the WH. Look at our name since March 2003.
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