Disgusted of UK
Makes you proud...
Our (UK) soldiers are sent to war on a false premise (WMD),
Some brutalize (even kill) Iraqi's who are not a threat but are in prison.
Other soldiers go to the media to inform them about the abuse and stage photo's showing what they allege.
An editor (Piers Morgan) of a newspaper (Daily Mirror) publishes the stories and the pictures....
And, even though soldiers have since been charged, even though no-one is able to say that the things alleged never actually happened, the editor is sacked because he published the 'fake' pictures.
Presumably a newspaper does not have access to all of the records the MOD used to refute the photo's.Even with their inside knowledge it took them two weeks to conclude that they were fakes. Morgan has said that he believed them to be genuine, they were backed up by testimony from the soldiers producing them and the allegations made have some credibility as soldiers are facing trial.
Believing false intelligence appears to be a sackable offense, unless of course that is you are a member of a government sending troops to far off places to kill thousands of people.
Links 'n' quotes:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/leg...p?story=521760
"Soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment will be charged this week in relation to the death of Baha Mousa, an Iraqi hotel receptionist severely beaten while in British military custody...
Around six soldiers from the QLR - the regiment at the centre of the row over hoax pictures published in the Daily Mirror - face charges in relation to incidents in Iraq... Although the nature of the second case is unknown, at least one soldier is likely to be be charged with manslaughter...
In all there have been 33 allegations of death, injury or ill-treatment against British troops in Iraq. The Royal Military Police have dismissed 15, but six are proceeding. The MoD said yesterday that four soldiers had been arrested in connection with one of the alleged abuses in Iraq, but all were later released."
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/med...p?story=521743
'officers from the special investigation branch (SIB) of the Royal Military Police finally tracked down one of the two soldiers dubbed "A" and "B" by the Daily Mirror. Army detectives had identified the lorry used in the hoax from scratches shown in the now infamous pictures. The unit involved was then easy to pin down, with the help of weapons records at the Kimberly TA Barracks, near Preston, where the pictures are thought to have been staged.
Investigators had gone to great lengths to prove that the pictures were fakes, including drafting in an independent medical forensic expert to give his opinion on the liquid seen in the front page image. His professional opinion, based on flow and viscosity, was that it could not be urine...
As the evidence mounted, the mood in the old War Office on Whitehall lightened as the Ministry of Defence sensed a comprehensive victory over the Daily Mirror. "When this report is published, Piers Morgan is going to have his balls fried," one senior official told The Independent on Sunday.
The MoD, however, could not wait for the military police report, which would, in any case, be sub judice. Ministers knew also that charges against British soldiers, including members of the QLR, were imminent. One Labour MP summed up the calculation neatly. "If Morgan had hung on until the charges he would have claimed vindication even if his pictures were shown to be fakes. We couldn't let that happen." '
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...217710,00.html
Perhaps. The pictures of British troops torturing Iraqi prisoners were, indeed, probably phoney. Not obviously, not without supporting evidence, but still duds. The MoD and army, after a fortnight's investigation, shout as much from the rooftops...
But was the case fully made? By no means. Morgan was hanging on, seeking 'incontrovertible evidence' of falsehood when his board caved in under him. And the difficulty is that the army, up to the moment the boom was lowered, had produced only assertion. Military police inquiries were - and are - continuing. The minister responsible, Adam Ingram, was hot against Morgan in the Commons but curiously fudgy about what Amnesty International told him long ago...
The army has a load of questions about its treatment of prisoners still to answer, but won't be hastening to address them quite as quickly now...
But who paid the price for all those intelligence hoaxes about WMD? The head of the CIA, like every head of the British intelligence services, remains in place. Mr Blair hasn't even said sorry.'
Our (UK) soldiers are sent to war on a false premise (WMD),
Some brutalize (even kill) Iraqi's who are not a threat but are in prison.
Other soldiers go to the media to inform them about the abuse and stage photo's showing what they allege.
An editor (Piers Morgan) of a newspaper (Daily Mirror) publishes the stories and the pictures....
And, even though soldiers have since been charged, even though no-one is able to say that the things alleged never actually happened, the editor is sacked because he published the 'fake' pictures.
Presumably a newspaper does not have access to all of the records the MOD used to refute the photo's.Even with their inside knowledge it took them two weeks to conclude that they were fakes. Morgan has said that he believed them to be genuine, they were backed up by testimony from the soldiers producing them and the allegations made have some credibility as soldiers are facing trial.
Believing false intelligence appears to be a sackable offense, unless of course that is you are a member of a government sending troops to far off places to kill thousands of people.
Links 'n' quotes:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/leg...p?story=521760
"Soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment will be charged this week in relation to the death of Baha Mousa, an Iraqi hotel receptionist severely beaten while in British military custody...
Around six soldiers from the QLR - the regiment at the centre of the row over hoax pictures published in the Daily Mirror - face charges in relation to incidents in Iraq... Although the nature of the second case is unknown, at least one soldier is likely to be be charged with manslaughter...
In all there have been 33 allegations of death, injury or ill-treatment against British troops in Iraq. The Royal Military Police have dismissed 15, but six are proceeding. The MoD said yesterday that four soldiers had been arrested in connection with one of the alleged abuses in Iraq, but all were later released."
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/med...p?story=521743
'officers from the special investigation branch (SIB) of the Royal Military Police finally tracked down one of the two soldiers dubbed "A" and "B" by the Daily Mirror. Army detectives had identified the lorry used in the hoax from scratches shown in the now infamous pictures. The unit involved was then easy to pin down, with the help of weapons records at the Kimberly TA Barracks, near Preston, where the pictures are thought to have been staged.
Investigators had gone to great lengths to prove that the pictures were fakes, including drafting in an independent medical forensic expert to give his opinion on the liquid seen in the front page image. His professional opinion, based on flow and viscosity, was that it could not be urine...
As the evidence mounted, the mood in the old War Office on Whitehall lightened as the Ministry of Defence sensed a comprehensive victory over the Daily Mirror. "When this report is published, Piers Morgan is going to have his balls fried," one senior official told The Independent on Sunday.
The MoD, however, could not wait for the military police report, which would, in any case, be sub judice. Ministers knew also that charges against British soldiers, including members of the QLR, were imminent. One Labour MP summed up the calculation neatly. "If Morgan had hung on until the charges he would have claimed vindication even if his pictures were shown to be fakes. We couldn't let that happen." '
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...217710,00.html
Perhaps. The pictures of British troops torturing Iraqi prisoners were, indeed, probably phoney. Not obviously, not without supporting evidence, but still duds. The MoD and army, after a fortnight's investigation, shout as much from the rooftops...
But was the case fully made? By no means. Morgan was hanging on, seeking 'incontrovertible evidence' of falsehood when his board caved in under him. And the difficulty is that the army, up to the moment the boom was lowered, had produced only assertion. Military police inquiries were - and are - continuing. The minister responsible, Adam Ingram, was hot against Morgan in the Commons but curiously fudgy about what Amnesty International told him long ago...
The army has a load of questions about its treatment of prisoners still to answer, but won't be hastening to address them quite as quickly now...
But who paid the price for all those intelligence hoaxes about WMD? The head of the CIA, like every head of the British intelligence services, remains in place. Mr Blair hasn't even said sorry.'
Comments
For one, the kid has an Iraqi flag t-shirt. Puhleez. One can almost hear the photographer saying "He doesn't look Iraqi-ish enough, can we get him in a t-shirt with an Iraqi flag on it instead?" and "Okay, now put the gun to his nuts. okay, now pee on him. okay now..."
It's so trite.
Plus they had that Mad-magazine (or VIZ, in the U.K.) kind of forced photo-cartoon feel to them.
Sadly, the left gobble these things up and when proven false, they are shrugged off with a few hundred "Well, you can be sure this thing HAS happened, anyway...." kinds of lame attempts at face-saving.
Yawn.
Originally posted by johnq
Sadly, the left gobble these things up and when proven false, they are shrugged off with a few hundred "Well, you can be sure this thing HAS happened, anyway...." kinds of lame attempts at face-saving.
Yawn.
These things DID happen. Sorry johnq. Iconvenient to your worldview, but believe me, that's your problem.
Originally posted by johnq
...
Sadly, the left gobble these things up and when proven false, they are shrugged off with a few hundred "Well, you can be sure this thing HAS happened, anyway...." kinds of lame attempts at face-saving.
Yawn.
Kinda like in TV cop shows where the cop plants evidence on the justification that the perp' is guilty of "something".
Although i'm sure they did an effort to check the authenticity of the pictures, they made a mistake in publishing pictures they were not entirely sure of, so the guy stepped down / got fired / whatever.
Now it's lame to say that the newspaper was totally right: they published explosive information, some of which turned out to be wrong.
Now it's even more lame to claim that this incident proves that nothing happened at all. Or to say some left wing magazine fabricated these pictures. When they found out they made a mistake, the guy resigned. Maybe that should be an example to some other people.
Originally posted by johnq
[B]I knew they were fakes as soon as I saw them.
Sadly, the left gobble these things up and when proven false, they are shrugged off with a few hundred "Well, you can be sure this thing HAS happened, anyway...." kinds of lame attempts at face-saving.
LOL, not that different from the "right wing nuts" gobbling the toppling of Saddam's statue in that empty square in Iraq eh john? I knew that was fake as soon as I saw it. What was Limbaugh's take on it?
Originally posted by segovius
I'll guess that a rightist group (government ?) faked them in some sort of effort to slander the the Daily Mirror and divert attention ('prove' the non-existence of ?) the real abuses that the pictures were counterfeiting.
It seems to have worked......
Yea the imagined outcome of your farfetched hypothesis is proof enough.
Originally posted by Scott
Isn't it a little treasonous to fake and publish something like that?
Nobody did that though, so why bring it up?
Originally posted by Scott
I'll guess that a leftist group faked them in some sort of effort to slander the UK.
Yea the imagined outcome of your farfetched hypothesis is proof enough.
Now it's lame to say that the newspaper was totally right: they published explosive information, some of which turned out to be wrong.
The point being that we seem to expect higher standards from unelected tabloid editors than we do from our 'democratic' representatives.
Was Morgan's mistake (seeing what he believed anyway in them photo's) any greater a crime than Bush 'n' Blair trotting out gibberish re WMD & links to Al Quada?
People are complaining that The Mirror put lives at risk!
Re:
Ok - let's agree they were fakes and move on to who faked them and why.
A complete guess would be...soldiers (possibly part-time) who saw some of what was going on and disagreed with it but reasoned that
1. No one would publish without proof or
2. They'd get more cash with pictures.
Originally posted by Harald
These things DID happen. Sorry johnq. Iconvenient to your worldview, but believe me, that's your problem.
Of course I know "these things" (i.e. these "types" of things) did happen (and ARE happening and WILL happen).
Don't put words in my mouth.
What I was saying was that some people shrug off the hoaxes, never get upset with the hoaxes, never apologize for stirring outrage based on the hoaxes, never apologize for not giving the military the benefit of the doubt or never give due suspicion to the accusations. Instead it is all gobbled up with glee and spit back out as Truth.
There is never any suspicion put on the hoaxers/anti-U.S. propagandists. It is always a one way street. Slander the U.S./U.K./Military = GOOD.
Keep your lies and wallow in them.
The TRUE incidents of abuse are being exposed, admitted and dealt with.
Sorry if the abuses at Abu Ghraib are not numerous and heinous enough to satisfy your anti-Bush/Rumsfeld bloodlust. For now they will have to suffice.
Originally posted by Gilsch
LOL, not that different from the "right wing nuts" gobbling the toppling of Saddam's statue in that empty square in Iraq eh john? I knew that was fake as soon as I saw it. What was Limbaugh's take on it?
What's your point? Am I now right wing because I used the phrase left wing?
Are you that simple in your thinking? Simple disagreement equals ENEMY to you? I am neither right wing nor left wing, thank you. Never voted for Bush or any Republican, thank you.
You suggesting I listen to Limbaugh? Never have. No interest. Thanks for the assumptions.
Those statues all came down with U.S. military equipment. Duh. It was hardly a popular revolt or Berlin Wall kind of thing. It was clearly U.S. controlled, as they were ordered to remove prominent imagery of Saddam as is typically the case when occupying a fallen dictatorship's nation (ala dynamiting swastikas off of building facades). There were fairly samll, loose crowds of tag along, curious Iraqis (ass-kissers even) who were, I assume, partly enthused to see symbols of Saddam's reign being over, but the vast majority were home scared not knowing what was going to happen (looting and general chaos).
But it wasn't fake, like these Mirror pictures. The Saddam statue wasn't on a Hollywood set. It wasn't Capricorn One in Iraq. It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had.
Originally posted by johnq
But it wasn't fake, like these Mirror pictures. The Saddam statue wasn't on a Hollywood set. It wasn't Capricorn One in Iraq. It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had.
But the Mirror pictures weren't fake. There actually was a lady with a penis hovering over her cum covered face. It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had.
Originally posted by bunge
But the Mirror pictures weren't fake. There actually was a lady with a penis hovering over her cum covered face. It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had.
Wait. Are we talking about the black and white (Iraqi flag t-shirt) pics only or did the Mirror also suggest that the pics circulating from www.sexinwar.com rapeporn site were real too?
The sexinwar.com pics are not fake either but suggesting they are real photographs of actual rapes does NOTHING to help Iraqis or rape victims and only further complicates the trust of military, politicians, media and people alleging abuse.
Believe NOTHING untill the facts are known, question EVERYTHING.
But the left is all too happy and quick to believe anything anti-U.S./military/Bush/etc. And, twice now, it bites them on their asses, BIG TIME.
Originally posted by johnq
Wait. Are we talking about the black and white (Iraqi flag t-shirt) pics only or did the Mirror also suggest that the pics circulating from www.sexinwar.com rapeporn site were real too?
...
No that was the Boston Globe. They gave up journalism some time ago.
Originally posted by Scott
No that was the Boston Globe. They gave up journalism some time ago.
Right. I got my copy framed already. Priceless example of Chuck Turner yet again being an ass in public.
Regardless, I was curious why the previous bunge quote had seemed to imply a Mirror/gangrape picture connection.
"But the Mirror pictures weren't fake. There actually was a lady with a penis hovering over her cum covered face. It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had." is just so wrong, it'd be silly were the subject not so serious.
I mean, nice try, but that comes off as more dumb than clever. Surely we can insult the Right and still actually be "right" in the process, hm?
Originally posted by johnq
What's your point? Am I now right wing because I used the phrase left wing?
Nah, everybody uses the phrase "left wing".
Are you that simple in your thinking? Simple disagreement equals ENEMY to you?
"Enemy"? lol Relax there old warrior. No need for the "with us or against us" stance here. And I'm simple in my thinking. Heh.
I am neither right wing nor left wing, thank you. Never voted for Bush or any Republican, thank you.
Ok, so you just like to come out and defend everything Bush. Ok.
Those statues all came down with U.S. military equipment. Duh.
No kidding Sherlock. Duh to you for pointing out the uber obvious.
It was hardly a popular revolt or Berlin Wall kind of thing. It was clearly U.S. controlled, as they were ordered to remove prominent imagery of Saddam as is typically the case when occupying a fallen dictatorship's nation (ala dynamiting swastikas off of building facades). There were fairly samll, loose crowds of tag along, curious Iraqis (ass-kissers even)
No kidding, hence my point. It was controlled if not completely manipulated to look like there were actually crowds of everyday Iraqis cheering the troops on.I hope you get the parallels now. I really hope you do.
It simply was spun to have more importance than it actually had.
I'm not surprised you bought into it. I never said those images were fake. The whole point, which you obviously missed since you had no clue about what was really behind those famous images, is that they were designed to portray something else. They were designed to look like the Iraqi crowds were out, dancing in the streets as the Saddam statue was being toppled. Wide angled pictures of the scene,which I recommend you look up on the web, show that there were no more than 70-100 people in the square(if that many at all)and that the square was completely cordoned off with tanks. A by invitation only event if you will. With most of the invitations apparently going to "Mr. Chalabis" clan.
Believe NOTHING untill the facts are known, question EVERYTHING.
lol, the irony. Maybe you should try some of your own advice sometime.
Where do I ever defend Bush? Saying fakes are fakes isn't defending Bush. It might indirectly help him as an unintended consequence but I'm not going to let that interfere with truth, logic or common sense.
But that's just it. You'll swallow anything so long as it is detrimental to Bush Co. whereas I want facts to simply be facts and not ammunition to silence or mock one side over the other.
You are using Ashcroftian logic.
If I say "the Mirror pics are fakes" it is not equivalent to being pro-Bush. Only to the myopics among the Left.
I'm a CENTRIST. The Left sucks just as much as the Right.
This "keep-Bush-out-of-office-at-all-costs" shit is really unflattering to you guys, sorry. I'm tempted to vote for no one because of this crap. Leave for good (not that there is anywhere to run really. But that is the current feeling.). Happy?
But that's the way the cats and dogs want to be.