It's the kind of the Apple might do - there were plenty of music players before the iPod, and videocams before the iSight.
Music players and videocams are Consumer Electronics items. $1K -$3K projectors are not. Apple may well be coming out with a projector. If so, it will be gorgeous, well designed and a very good value. It will probably sell very well to the tiny niche of pros (and prosumers) who buy such things. But it will NOT be a consumer product, let alone the centerpiece of some movie store/headless Mac/digital hub nonsense.
$3499, yes, that's about right. That would be a professional projector.
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price. Try $34,990.00 for a 'professional projector' and even that would be on the low end for some folks.
...those guys and gals would laugh at the idea of a $3499 'professional projector'.
Here's a quote from just one thread I found (filled with as much jargon as your average computer geek posting...
Quote:
must disagree in a certain respect. Yes, peoples? preferences will determine their course of action in a purchase as always. But I disagree about the nature of this competition - today. While there is overlap in the market, 1080p LCoS currently ranges from $20-30k while 720px3 DLP ranges from $25-38k. In my mind that is not an immaterial difference, particularly when presumably there is a ?cost? to the lower priced 720px3 DLP units, potentially making them even less attractive relative similarly or (more pertinently) lower priced 1080p LCoS units.
Having had a projector in my family room for a few years now (and the bulb blowing out just a few months ago) I'm all for Apple going into the projector biz - projectors are very very cool - nothing like watching your favorite movie or sporting event on an 8' screen - BUT - mounting the projector isn't 'a snap' and people always seem to forget that you gotta have a screen to project onto and those aren't cheap either. I have a Da-Lite power screen and that cost a grand (I think - it was quite some time ago).
Sure you could go cheap or even DIY for the screen and save quite a bit but most wouldn't.
In short the major issues with a projector are:
- Need the 'right' kinda room (dimensions and such'
- Need cables run from the 'gear' to the projector at the ceiling
- Need power in the ceiling for the projector - how many of you have that?
- Need space for the screen / cost of screen
edit
- Lamp/Bulb life & replacement cost - a $400 bulb is NOT uncommon (I know that for a fact - see above).
These are major reasons why most people go with a non-projector solution... Sure they are GREAT once installed but lets face it getting a projector installed isn't nearly as simple as unboxing a TV and plugging in the power and video cable.
Music players and videocams are Consumer Electronics items. $1K -$3K projectors are not. Apple may well be coming out with a projector. If so, it will be gorgeous, well designed and a very good value. It will probably sell very well to the tiny niche of pros (and prosumers) who buy such things. But it will NOT be a consumer product, let alone the centerpiece of some movie store/headless Mac/digital hub nonsense.
There is nothing to see here, move on.
So what you are saying is that this is the same situation as when Apple brought out Airport at a 299 $ pricepoint when similar products were at 1000 $ pricepoint?
Was WiFi a consumer product at that time? Is WiFi a consumer product now?
I don't know who is talking most noncense, and I don't know if Apple is comming to market with such a device, but if they could do what they have done in the past with other products...wow.
It is sooo easy to explain why something could never work, the hard thing is finding a way it could work.
Within a problem lies potential, within the solution lies a profit.
? iProjector vs. iMovie rental streaming store integration. like iPod vs. iTunes Music Store
? Portable high quality projector using iPod technology (HD, chip, OS etc.)
? Apple solving setup (align, focus, colour balance) using iSight and coloursync technology
? Wouldn't Steve just love to take over the TV space in peoples living room and replace it with a "brain on" device? And if so, what would this device do?
While I agree that such a projector is unlikely in the near future (WWDC), I've yet to hear a more compelling argument for the next piece of the the "digital lifestyle" puzzle. Sure a hyped-up iPod makes sense, but that would be an evolution not a new creation, no matter how great it is. It would be off topic to air each of the speculations here, so I'll quit while the worms are still in the can. This thread is getting a little thread-bare
By the way Zab, your Inglish izunt so bahd. Keep the faith, and keep daydreaming about new cool mac innovations.
"We have been taught to believe that negative equals realistic and positive equals unrealistic."
While I agree that such a projector is unlikely in the near future (WWDC), I've yet to hear a more compelling argument for the next piece of the the "digital lifestyle" puzzle. Sure a hyped-up iPod makes sense, but that would be an evolution not a new creation, no matter how great it is. It would be off topic to air each of the speculations here, so I'll quit while the worms are still in the can. This thread is getting a little thread-bare
By the way Zab, your Inglish izunt so bahd. Keep the faith, and keep daydreaming about new cool mac innovations.
"We have been taught to believe that negative equals realistic and positive equals unrealistic."
-Susan Jeffers
Esteban
he heee thanks man 8) here's what your quote from Susan jeffers would look like in my language: "Vi er blevet lært at negativitet er lig med realisme og positivitet er lig med urealisme" enjoy
We'll be back after these messages with more tutoring, language and spelling tips.....
Where the Hell is this idea that consumers want anything to do with projectors coming from? I don't care how simultaneously industry leading and comparatively inexpensive an Apple projector might be, it will still be a costly niche product that serves only its existing professional market segment. The idea that such a device could be used as the basis of a consumer product push is ridiculous.
You know, normally I disagree with just about everything you post... but not this time. I present classroom training and use projectors all the time. There are three characteristics of front projection that make me question why anyone would want to use it for recreational purposes:
Fan noise (they are LOUD)
Electrical consumption (digital cinemas tend to operate their digital projectors at lower than recommended lumens to conserve electricity)
Weight/environental noise (i.e. they are heavy and the picture jiggles when people move around near the projector)
Aside from the fact that several companies make several different models of digital projectors, all of them relatively easy to set up. As easy an old elementary school filmstrip projector, I can't see Apple entering an already overcrowded market. Add to that the three factors above and I think it's a dead idea.
All good reasons to be suspicious about the projector, it goes against Apple's plug and play philosophy.
So what your saying is that other companies products goes against Apple's plug and play....? Thanks for pointing that out, but it's really not terribly surprising is it?
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price. Try $34,990.00 for a 'professional projector' and even that would be on the low end for some folks.
...those guys and gals would laugh at the idea of a $3499 'professional projector'.
Here's a quote from just one thread I found (filled with as much jargon as your average computer geek posting...
Having had a projector in my family room for a few years now (and the bulb blowing out just a few months ago) I'm all for Apple going into the projector biz - projectors are very very cool - nothing like watching your favorite movie or sporting event on an 8' screen - BUT - mounting the projector isn't 'a snap' and people always seem to forget that you gotta have a screen to project onto and those aren't cheap either. I have a Da-Lite power screen and that cost a grand (I think - it was quite some time ago).
Sure you could go cheap or even DIY for the screen and save quite a bit but most wouldn't.
In short the major issues with a projector are:
- Need the 'right' kinda room (dimensions and such'
- Need cables run from the 'gear' to the projector at the ceiling
- Need power in the ceiling for the projector - how many of you have that?
- Need space for the screen / cost of screen
edit
- Lamp/Bulb life & replacement cost - a $400 bulb is NOT uncommon (I know that for a fact - see above).
These are major reasons why most people go with a non-projector solution... Sure they are GREAT once installed but lets face it getting a projector installed isn't nearly as simple as unboxing a TV and plugging in the power and video cable.
Dave
Ok from the top...
? eehh the right kinda room? so we can rule out people who don't have a living room right now where they watch TV? ....hmm...I just know there's a market in there somewhere....
? Needs cables from the Gear to the projector in the ceiling? Well sure, unless they come up with a wireless firewire solution as we have been talking about in this thread. That would leave us with a Power cable, now is this reason enough to make this venture utterly impossible? The company why designed an 8 by 8 inch Cube could surely design a powercable long enough? Or maybe find a totally new solution as to where the projector gets mounted? On the wall maybe? who knows? When we compare to products already out there we may be a long ways off from what Apple is (or is not) planning!
? Needs power in the ceiling? So there is just no other way of doing this? You have forgotten how to fly Peter Pan....
? space and cost of screen? Now I must admit that I am the one who is confused, I thought we were talking about a projector that "projects" an image on the wall?
The list as to why this would never work is endless I'm sure, but not the interesting one. Let's focus on the list of how this COULD be done...FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE...remember?
How can we build on our WANT TO BELIEVE list without taking a moment to enjoy humor on a high level? .....but come on... we all wonder when we see this.... hmmmm.....I wonder.... could it be done..... [/url]
? eehh the right kinda room? so we can rule out people who don't have a living room right now where they watch TV? ....hmm...I just know there's a market in there somewhere....
Okay you clearly know little about how a projector is setup nor projector optics. In the case of projectors and more to the point projector lenses (optics) DISTANCE DOES MATTER. Place the projector too far from the SCREEN (not wall - see below) and the picture could end up being too HUGE... Place the projector too close to the SCREEN and the image could end up being to tiny
Gotta narrow room your gonna have a small picture. Gotta long room and the projector either has to be mounted in the middle of the ceiling OR if you do move it all the way back it'll be too big.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? Needs cables from the Gear to the projector in the ceiling? Well sure, unless they come up with a wireless firewire solution as we have been talking about in this thread. That would leave us with a Power cable, now is this reason enough to make this venture utterly impossible? The company why designed an 8 by 8 inch Cube could surely design a powercable long enough? Or maybe find a totally new solution as to where the projector gets mounted? On the wall maybe? who knows? When we compare to products already out there we may be a long ways off from what Apple is (or is not) planning!
Okay I'll admit that SOMEDAY you'll be able to transmit HDTV over home wireless networks but till the specs are hammered out you can't very well release a product on them.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? Needs power in the ceiling? So there is just no other way of doing this? You have forgotten how to fly Peter Pan....
What the heck are you talking about... PROJECTORS NEED POWER period end of sentence. Try running a 2000 lumen+ projector on battery power - heh you wouldn't even get past the FBI warning!
Quote:
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? space and cost of screen? Now I must admit that I am the one who is confused, I thought we were talking about a projector that "projects" an image on the wall?
Ah so you have white off white or light grey (some say grey is the best) paint on your walls?!?! Well thats great for you but for the rest of the world who has paneling, wallpaper and or some other non-whitish colored wall THEY WILL NEED A SCREEN.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
The list as to why this would never work is endless I'm sure, but not the interesting one. Let's focus on the list of how this COULD be done...FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE...remember?[/B]
I'm all for it but unlike you I wouldn't mock and dismiss MAJOR PROBLEMS that someone pointed out. I'd want and NEED to know all of the major problems and if one of them happens to KILL the idea then so be it - the sooner you know something is DOA the less money wasted.
So to sum up the major issues...
Optics are indeed a major issue - lens grinders can custom cut a lens for 'short throw' or 'long throw' but everything has a tradeoff and you can have it 'just work' for everything no matter what the distance and screen size and optics ain't cheap!
Video signal to the projector - okay I'll admit that wireless will SOMEDAY deal with this - just aint gonna happen this year (or maybe even next) unless the IEEE 802.15.3 WG went into overdrive (not to mention the chip makers).
Power to the projector is the 2nd major issue - just about everyone who has a projector in use in a 'home theater' agrees that ceiling mounting is the way to go since you don't have to worry about someone sitting in front of the projector lens. Power near the projector IS a major issue and you can't realistically transmit power wirelessly (students of Tesla - yea yea I know thats not 100% true but I'm talking UL approved consumer electronics)
Third is screen cost and installation. Anyone even 1/2 serious about using a projector to watch movies etc owns (or has built) a screen for it - sure you can 'get by' viewing it on a wall so long as its 'off white' or light grey (better blacks I hear) but a screen will always give you the BEST experience.
Dismiss them if you like but these issues ARE the main reason why 97% 98% heck maybe even 99% of the fellow AI members here don't have a projector.
First of all, descriptive, correctly spelled thread titles are your friend.
Second, am I missing something here or does this sound like a really dumb idea? This is a projector, right? Like the one my dad showed slides on 20 years ago? OK, so it's "digital" and "better", but is the idea that you shine the image on a blank wall?!!! What the hell is the point of that? People want to watch movies on TVs, big wide state of the art TVs, not some needless "update" to the YMCA rec room paradigm.
And this is supposed to somehow be a headless iMac too? You shine your desktop and applications onto your bedroom wall?!?! I don't get it.
Not much a home theater person are you? These are tiny boxes basically that project HDTV images onto a screen. Epson has one that can shine on a wall, not amy can and look good, most need a decent screen. You can get a decent one for $2k and make your own screen for $100 or so. No way that a 60" TV can compete with a 100" projected image. People want to watch on TVs don't know about projectors. This sin't for the YMCA \ it's for home enthusiasts or even with keynote a great business model.
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price. Try $34,990.00 for a 'professional projector' and even that would be on the low end for some folks.
You're talking about home theater-type systems. I think others in here are talking about the little portable presentation projectors that start around $1000; the "pro" presentation projectors are around $3500.
The reason the difference is important is because presumably this would be part of the digital hub rather than a stand-alone machine. The computer or iPod would send the content to the projector, just like in these presentation projectors, rather than the home theater-type TVs.
Assuming of course that it connected to my computer wirelessly and could stream my iMovies, my iDVDs, the movies that I just rented via the iMovie Store. Also it would need to have audio out to connect to my surround sound system and stream from iTunes. Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah, I need to be able to plug my iPod into it, as well as integration with Keynote. Yup, that about covers it.
And the price? Free, of course, with 2 proofs of purchase.
Third is screen cost and installation. Anyone even 1/2 serious about using a projector to watch movies etc owns (or has built) a screen for it - sure you can 'get by' viewing it on a wall so long as its 'off white' or light grey (better blacks I hear) but a screen will always give you the BEST experience.
Dave
As I understand it, the screen issue is a lot more than just the color. You also have the material that it is made of. At least a few years ago the surfaces were made of glass beads that would reflected the transmitted light in a predictable way. Most painted walls have a texture, either "plaster" or "sanded" that, along with the makeup of the paint, serve to diffuse the light in a room in random directions so that it you have an even distribution of light throughout the room. For a screen you want that light reflected in a predictable way to maximize the brightness of the image from the "ideal" viewing area. This is not what your standard paint from the hardware store is made up to do, even if you do paint the wall "ceiling white".
Then there is the shape of the screen, which may or may not be flat. Ideally you would want a screen that will "correct" any distortions from the optics so that the image appears to be a flat rectangle. This may mean that it needs to be slightly concave, especially if you have to set up the projector at an extreme height (either high or low) in the room.
I think that it would be a mistake to market a product like this without addressing these issues because if they didn't it could create bad press for Apple when a bunch of consumers expect a great image and get a so so one due to these issues. A high end AV company can get away with these limitations because most of their customers have done at least some research and they are not typically sold through traditional retail channels so there is a salesman to explain them. I think that the press and industry analysts would expect more from a company like Apple that builds "plug and play", turnkey hardware and software that is more mainstream than a custom home theater system is and the end result would be a lot of bad press for Apple similar to the "second wave" of press Apple received for the Cube.
So what your saying is that other companies products goes against Apple's plug and play....? Thanks for pointing that out, but it's really not terribly surprising is it?
The comment was not about other companies. What I meant is that complexity of a front projection system is contrary to the design philosophy of the company that brought us an iMac that could hook up to the internet in about 5 minutes from unpacking to surfing, the single wire monitor (USB/DVI/Power in one cord) and led the way in marketing the wireless home network. There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
As I understand it, the screen issue is a lot more than just the color. You also have the material that it is made of. At least a few years ago the surfaces were made of glass beads that would reflected the transmitted light in a predictable way. Most painted walls have a texture, either "plaster" or "sanded" that, along with the makeup of the paint, serve to diffuse the light in a room in random directions so that it you have an even distribution of light throughout the room. For a screen you want that light reflected in a predictable way to maximize the brightness of the image from the "ideal" viewing area. This is not what your standard paint from the hardware store is made up to do, even if you do paint the wall "ceiling white".
Then there is the shape of the screen, which may or may not be flat. Ideally you would want a screen that will "correct" any distortions from the optics so that the image appears to be a flat rectangle. This may mean that it needs to be slightly concave, especially if you have to set up the projector at an extreme height (either high or low) in the room.
I think that it would be a mistake to market a product like this without addressing these issues because if they didn't it could create bad press for Apple when a bunch of consumers expect a great image and get a so so one due to these issues. A high end AV company can get away with these limitations because most of their customers have done at least some research and they are not typically sold through traditional retail channels so there is a salesman to explain them. I think that the press and industry analysts would expect more from a company like Apple that builds "plug and play", turnkey hardware and software that is more mainstream than a custom home theater system is and the end result would be a lot of bad press for Apple similar to the "second wave" of press Apple received for the Cube.
As someone who purchased a $1,000 screen we are in full agreement. The idea of projecting something onto 'any old wall' makes my skin crawl but I know some people who do get away with doing it till they recover from their projector purchase. It's usually the WF (wife factor) or SF (spouse factor) that comes into play... Sinking $2k on a projector 'might fly' but then you tell em that it'll cost another $1k for the screen and that'll usually nix the whole deal... So year 1 you get em to okay the projector and get em hooked on it and then you drop the other shoe and say - this will look even better if we only ....
Sometimes you gotta do these things in stages - As luck would have it I didn't have to...
There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
Nicely summed up homenow!
Took me pages to basically say the same thing...
Now this doesn't mean Apple still couldn't add something to the 'projector market' (I for one think they could) **but** this wouldn't be 'joe-consumer' priced NOR 'joe-consumer' marketed.
If this thread has shown me anything is that the average non-projector owning guy/gal on the street has no idea what it takes to buy and install one.
Tell your dad he could have a huge 8' image for watching movies and sports for 30% less that what most HDTV (that are MUCH smaller) sell for and he'd be all over it but then hit him with:
- Must have fairly good control of lighting - dark is best, most lights out is 'okay' but no matter what direct sunlight is very very bad.
- Gotta hire someone to add a power outlet where the projector will be installed (or explain to mom why you've got a big thick black power extension cord strung across the ceiling and down the wall).
- Paint the wall 'off white or grey' and then tell mom that nothing can hang on that area of the wall *or* purchase and install a screen (additional price) than can be raised when not in use.
- Oh and when the lamp/bulb dies it'll cost $300 - $500 for a new one.
iPod users bitching about a $69 battery - they'd FREAK at the idea of a $400 'light bulb'
Projectors are nice but only when you truly know what you're getting yourself into.
Comments
Originally posted by BRussell
It's the kind of the Apple might do - there were plenty of music players before the iPod, and videocams before the iSight.
Music players and videocams are Consumer Electronics items. $1K -$3K projectors are not. Apple may well be coming out with a projector. If so, it will be gorgeous, well designed and a very good value. It will probably sell very well to the tiny niche of pros (and prosumers) who buy such things. But it will NOT be a consumer product, let alone the centerpiece of some movie store/headless Mac/digital hub nonsense.
There is nothing to see here, move on.
Originally posted by cubist
$3499, yes, that's about right. That would be a professional projector.
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price.
Hang out here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...?s=&forumid=86
...those guys and gals would laugh at the idea of a $3499 'professional projector'.
Here's a quote from just one thread I found (filled with as much jargon as your average computer geek posting...
must disagree in a certain respect. Yes, peoples? preferences will determine their course of action in a purchase as always. But I disagree about the nature of this competition - today. While there is overlap in the market, 1080p LCoS currently ranges from $20-30k while 720px3 DLP ranges from $25-38k. In my mind that is not an immaterial difference, particularly when presumably there is a ?cost? to the lower priced 720px3 DLP units, potentially making them even less attractive relative similarly or (more pertinently) lower priced 1080p LCoS units.
Having had a projector in my family room for a few years now (and the bulb blowing out just a few months ago) I'm all for Apple going into the projector biz - projectors are very very cool - nothing like watching your favorite movie or sporting event on an 8' screen - BUT - mounting the projector isn't 'a snap' and people always seem to forget that you gotta have a screen to project onto and those aren't cheap either. I have a Da-Lite power screen and that cost a grand (I think - it was quite some time ago).
Sure you could go cheap or even DIY for the screen and save quite a bit but most wouldn't.
In short the major issues with a projector are:
- Need the 'right' kinda room (dimensions and such'
- Need cables run from the 'gear' to the projector at the ceiling
- Need power in the ceiling for the projector - how many of you have that?
- Need space for the screen / cost of screen
edit
- Lamp/Bulb life & replacement cost - a $400 bulb is NOT uncommon (I know that for a fact - see above).
These are major reasons why most people go with a non-projector solution... Sure they are GREAT once installed but lets face it getting a projector installed isn't nearly as simple as unboxing a TV and plugging in the power and video cable.
Dave
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Music players and videocams are Consumer Electronics items. $1K -$3K projectors are not. Apple may well be coming out with a projector. If so, it will be gorgeous, well designed and a very good value. It will probably sell very well to the tiny niche of pros (and prosumers) who buy such things. But it will NOT be a consumer product, let alone the centerpiece of some movie store/headless Mac/digital hub nonsense.
There is nothing to see here, move on.
So what you are saying is that this is the same situation as when Apple brought out Airport at a 299 $ pricepoint when similar products were at 1000 $ pricepoint?
Was WiFi a consumer product at that time? Is WiFi a consumer product now?
I don't know who is talking most noncense, and I don't know if Apple is comming to market with such a device, but if they could do what they have done in the past with other products...wow.
It is sooo easy to explain why something could never work, the hard thing is finding a way it could work.
Within a problem lies potential, within the solution lies a profit.
? Wireless transfer from Mac to projector?
(see: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/...31082311.shtml)
? iApp integration?
? iProjector vs. iMovie rental streaming store integration. like iPod vs. iTunes Music Store
? Portable high quality projector using iPod technology (HD, chip, OS etc.)
? Apple solving setup (align, focus, colour balance) using iSight and coloursync technology
? Wouldn't Steve just love to take over the TV space in peoples living room and replace it with a "brain on" device? And if so, what would this device do?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
News: Sony Announces New Wireless Projector
http://www.overclockersclub.com/?read=7764008
...Featuring an intelligent set-up that automatically performs keystone
correction (vertical and horizontal), a powered lens and the ability to store
settings...
By the way Zab, your Inglish izunt so bahd. Keep the faith, and keep daydreaming about new cool mac innovations.
"We have been taught to believe that negative equals realistic and positive equals unrealistic."
-Susan Jeffers
Esteban
Originally posted by Esteban
While I agree that such a projector is unlikely in the near future (WWDC), I've yet to hear a more compelling argument for the next piece of the the "digital lifestyle" puzzle. Sure a hyped-up iPod makes sense, but that would be an evolution not a new creation, no matter how great it is. It would be off topic to air each of the speculations here, so I'll quit while the worms are still in the can. This thread is getting a little thread-bare
By the way Zab, your Inglish izunt so bahd. Keep the faith, and keep daydreaming about new cool mac innovations.
"We have been taught to believe that negative equals realistic and positive equals unrealistic."
-Susan Jeffers
Esteban
he heee thanks man
We'll be back after these messages with more tutoring, language and spelling tips.....
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Where the Hell is this idea that consumers want anything to do with projectors coming from? I don't care how simultaneously industry leading and comparatively inexpensive an Apple projector might be, it will still be a costly niche product that serves only its existing professional market segment. The idea that such a device could be used as the basis of a consumer product push is ridiculous.
You know, normally I disagree with just about everything you post... but not this time. I present classroom training and use projectors all the time. There are three characteristics of front projection that make me question why anyone would want to use it for recreational purposes:
Fan noise (they are LOUD)
Electrical consumption (digital cinemas tend to operate their digital projectors at lower than recommended lumens to conserve electricity)
Weight/environental noise (i.e. they are heavy and the picture jiggles when people move around near the projector)
Aside from the fact that several companies make several different models of digital projectors, all of them relatively easy to set up. As easy an old elementary school filmstrip projector, I can't see Apple entering an already overcrowded market. Add to that the three factors above and I think it's a dead idea.
Originally posted by DaveGee
In short the major issues with a projector are:
- Need the 'right' kinda room (dimensions and such'
- Need cables run from the 'gear' to the projector at the ceiling
- Need power in the ceiling for the projector - how many of you have that?
- Need space for the screen / cost of screen
Dave
All good reasons to be suspicious about the projector, it goes against Apple's plug and play philosophy.
Originally posted by JCG
All good reasons to be suspicious about the projector, it goes against Apple's plug and play philosophy.
So what your saying is that other companies products goes against Apple's plug and play....? Thanks for pointing that out, but it's really not terribly surprising is it?
Originally posted by DaveGee
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price.
Hang out here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...?s=&forumid=86
...those guys and gals would laugh at the idea of a $3499 'professional projector'.
Here's a quote from just one thread I found (filled with as much jargon as your average computer geek posting...
Having had a projector in my family room for a few years now (and the bulb blowing out just a few months ago) I'm all for Apple going into the projector biz - projectors are very very cool - nothing like watching your favorite movie or sporting event on an 8' screen - BUT - mounting the projector isn't 'a snap' and people always seem to forget that you gotta have a screen to project onto and those aren't cheap either. I have a Da-Lite power screen and that cost a grand (I think - it was quite some time ago).
Sure you could go cheap or even DIY for the screen and save quite a bit but most wouldn't.
In short the major issues with a projector are:
- Need the 'right' kinda room (dimensions and such'
- Need cables run from the 'gear' to the projector at the ceiling
- Need power in the ceiling for the projector - how many of you have that?
- Need space for the screen / cost of screen
edit
- Lamp/Bulb life & replacement cost - a $400 bulb is NOT uncommon (I know that for a fact - see above).
These are major reasons why most people go with a non-projector solution... Sure they are GREAT once installed but lets face it getting a projector installed isn't nearly as simple as unboxing a TV and plugging in the power and video cable.
Dave
Ok from the top...
? eehh the right kinda room? so we can rule out people who don't have a living room right now where they watch TV? ....hmm...I just know there's a market in there somewhere....
? Needs cables from the Gear to the projector in the ceiling? Well sure, unless they come up with a wireless firewire solution as we have been talking about in this thread. That would leave us with a Power cable, now is this reason enough to make this venture utterly impossible? The company why designed an 8 by 8 inch Cube could surely design a powercable long enough? Or maybe find a totally new solution as to where the projector gets mounted? On the wall maybe? who knows? When we compare to products already out there we may be a long ways off from what Apple is (or is not) planning!
? Needs power in the ceiling? So there is just no other way of doing this? You have forgotten how to fly Peter Pan....
? space and cost of screen? Now I must admit that I am the one who is confused, I thought we were talking about a projector that "projects" an image on the wall?
The list as to why this would never work is endless I'm sure, but not the interesting one. Let's focus on the list of how this COULD be done...FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE...remember?
[url]http://www.detectivemarketing.com/E...es/seeapple.pdf
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? eehh the right kinda room? so we can rule out people who don't have a living room right now where they watch TV? ....hmm...I just know there's a market in there somewhere....
Okay you clearly know little about how a projector is setup nor projector optics. In the case of projectors and more to the point projector lenses (optics) DISTANCE DOES MATTER. Place the projector too far from the SCREEN (not wall - see below) and the picture could end up being too HUGE... Place the projector too close to the SCREEN and the image could end up being to tiny
Gotta narrow room your gonna have a small picture. Gotta long room and the projector either has to be mounted in the middle of the ceiling OR if you do move it all the way back it'll be too big.
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? Needs cables from the Gear to the projector in the ceiling? Well sure, unless they come up with a wireless firewire solution as we have been talking about in this thread. That would leave us with a Power cable, now is this reason enough to make this venture utterly impossible? The company why designed an 8 by 8 inch Cube could surely design a powercable long enough? Or maybe find a totally new solution as to where the projector gets mounted? On the wall maybe? who knows? When we compare to products already out there we may be a long ways off from what Apple is (or is not) planning!
Okay I'll admit that SOMEDAY you'll be able to transmit HDTV over home wireless networks but till the specs are hammered out you can't very well release a product on them.
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? Needs power in the ceiling? So there is just no other way of doing this? You have forgotten how to fly Peter Pan....
What the heck are you talking about... PROJECTORS NEED POWER period end of sentence. Try running a 2000 lumen+ projector on battery power - heh you wouldn't even get past the FBI warning!
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
? space and cost of screen? Now I must admit that I am the one who is confused, I thought we were talking about a projector that "projects" an image on the wall?
Ah so you have white off white or light grey (some say grey is the best) paint on your walls?!?! Well thats great for you but for the rest of the world who has paneling, wallpaper and or some other non-whitish colored wall THEY WILL NEED A SCREEN.
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
The list as to why this would never work is endless I'm sure, but not the interesting one. Let's focus on the list of how this COULD be done...FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE...remember?[/B]
I'm all for it but unlike you I wouldn't mock and dismiss MAJOR PROBLEMS that someone pointed out. I'd want and NEED to know all of the major problems and if one of them happens to KILL the idea then so be it - the sooner you know something is DOA the less money wasted.
So to sum up the major issues...
Optics are indeed a major issue - lens grinders can custom cut a lens for 'short throw' or 'long throw' but everything has a tradeoff and you can have it 'just work' for everything no matter what the distance and screen size and optics ain't cheap!
Video signal to the projector - okay I'll admit that wireless will SOMEDAY deal with this - just aint gonna happen this year (or maybe even next) unless the IEEE 802.15.3 WG went into overdrive (not to mention the chip makers).
Power to the projector is the 2nd major issue - just about everyone who has a projector in use in a 'home theater' agrees that ceiling mounting is the way to go since you don't have to worry about someone sitting in front of the projector lens. Power near the projector IS a major issue and you can't realistically transmit power wirelessly (students of Tesla - yea yea I know thats not 100% true but I'm talking UL approved consumer electronics)
Third is screen cost and installation. Anyone even 1/2 serious about using a projector to watch movies etc owns (or has built) a screen for it - sure you can 'get by' viewing it on a wall so long as its 'off white' or light grey (better blacks I hear) but a screen will always give you the BEST experience.
Dismiss them if you like but these issues ARE the main reason why 97% 98% heck maybe even 99% of the fellow AI members here don't have a projector.
Dave
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
First of all, descriptive, correctly spelled thread titles are your friend.
Second, am I missing something here or does this sound like a really dumb idea? This is a projector, right? Like the one my dad showed slides on 20 years ago? OK, so it's "digital" and "better", but is the idea that you shine the image on a blank wall?!!! What the hell is the point of that? People want to watch movies on TVs, big wide state of the art TVs, not some needless "update" to the YMCA rec room paradigm.
And this is supposed to somehow be a headless iMac too? You shine your desktop and applications onto your bedroom wall?!?! I don't get it.
Not much a home theater person are you? These are tiny boxes basically that project HDTV images onto a screen. Epson has one that can shine on a wall, not amy can and look good, most need a decent screen. You can get a decent one for $2k and make your own screen for $100 or so. No way that a 60" TV can compete with a 100" projected image. People want to watch on TVs don't know about projectors. This sin't for the YMCA
Originally posted by DaveGee
Cubist, Not a 'projector person' are ya? Cause I think you forgot a zero in your 'professional projector' price.
You're talking about home theater-type systems. I think others in here are talking about the little portable presentation projectors that start around $1000; the "pro" presentation projectors are around $3500.
The reason the difference is important is because presumably this would be part of the digital hub rather than a stand-alone machine. The computer or iPod would send the content to the projector, just like in these presentation projectors, rather than the home theater-type TVs.
Assuming of course that it connected to my computer wirelessly and could stream my iMovies, my iDVDs, the movies that I just rented via the iMovie Store. Also it would need to have audio out to connect to my surround sound system and stream from iTunes. Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah, I need to be able to plug my iPod into it, as well as integration with Keynote. Yup, that about covers it.
And the price? Free, of course, with 2 proofs of purchase.
Originally posted by DaveGee
Third is screen cost and installation. Anyone even 1/2 serious about using a projector to watch movies etc owns (or has built) a screen for it - sure you can 'get by' viewing it on a wall so long as its 'off white' or light grey (better blacks I hear) but a screen will always give you the BEST experience.
Dave
As I understand it, the screen issue is a lot more than just the color. You also have the material that it is made of. At least a few years ago the surfaces were made of glass beads that would reflected the transmitted light in a predictable way. Most painted walls have a texture, either "plaster" or "sanded" that, along with the makeup of the paint, serve to diffuse the light in a room in random directions so that it you have an even distribution of light throughout the room. For a screen you want that light reflected in a predictable way to maximize the brightness of the image from the "ideal" viewing area. This is not what your standard paint from the hardware store is made up to do, even if you do paint the wall "ceiling white".
Then there is the shape of the screen, which may or may not be flat. Ideally you would want a screen that will "correct" any distortions from the optics so that the image appears to be a flat rectangle. This may mean that it needs to be slightly concave, especially if you have to set up the projector at an extreme height (either high or low) in the room.
I think that it would be a mistake to market a product like this without addressing these issues because if they didn't it could create bad press for Apple when a bunch of consumers expect a great image and get a so so one due to these issues. A high end AV company can get away with these limitations because most of their customers have done at least some research and they are not typically sold through traditional retail channels so there is a salesman to explain them. I think that the press and industry analysts would expect more from a company like Apple that builds "plug and play", turnkey hardware and software that is more mainstream than a custom home theater system is and the end result would be a lot of bad press for Apple similar to the "second wave" of press Apple received for the Cube.
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
So what your saying is that other companies products goes against Apple's plug and play....? Thanks for pointing that out, but it's really not terribly surprising is it?
The comment was not about other companies. What I meant is that complexity of a front projection system is contrary to the design philosophy of the company that brought us an iMac that could hook up to the internet in about 5 minutes from unpacking to surfing, the single wire monitor (USB/DVI/Power in one cord) and led the way in marketing the wireless home network. There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
Originally posted by @homenow
As I understand it, the screen issue is a lot more than just the color. You also have the material that it is made of. At least a few years ago the surfaces were made of glass beads that would reflected the transmitted light in a predictable way. Most painted walls have a texture, either "plaster" or "sanded" that, along with the makeup of the paint, serve to diffuse the light in a room in random directions so that it you have an even distribution of light throughout the room. For a screen you want that light reflected in a predictable way to maximize the brightness of the image from the "ideal" viewing area. This is not what your standard paint from the hardware store is made up to do, even if you do paint the wall "ceiling white".
Then there is the shape of the screen, which may or may not be flat. Ideally you would want a screen that will "correct" any distortions from the optics so that the image appears to be a flat rectangle. This may mean that it needs to be slightly concave, especially if you have to set up the projector at an extreme height (either high or low) in the room.
I think that it would be a mistake to market a product like this without addressing these issues because if they didn't it could create bad press for Apple when a bunch of consumers expect a great image and get a so so one due to these issues. A high end AV company can get away with these limitations because most of their customers have done at least some research and they are not typically sold through traditional retail channels so there is a salesman to explain them. I think that the press and industry analysts would expect more from a company like Apple that builds "plug and play", turnkey hardware and software that is more mainstream than a custom home theater system is and the end result would be a lot of bad press for Apple similar to the "second wave" of press Apple received for the Cube.
As someone who purchased a $1,000 screen we are in full agreement. The idea of projecting something onto 'any old wall' makes my skin crawl but I know some people who do get away with doing it till they recover from their projector purchase. It's usually the WF (wife factor) or SF (spouse factor) that comes into play... Sinking $2k on a projector 'might fly' but then you tell em that it'll cost another $1k for the screen and that'll usually nix the whole deal... So year 1 you get em to okay the projector and get em hooked on it and then you drop the other shoe and say - this will look even better if we only ....
Sometimes you gotta do these things in stages - As luck would have it I didn't have to...
Dave
Originally posted by @homenow
There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
Nicely summed up homenow!
Took me pages to basically say the same thing...
Now this doesn't mean Apple still couldn't add something to the 'projector market' (I for one think they could) **but** this wouldn't be 'joe-consumer' priced NOR 'joe-consumer' marketed.
If this thread has shown me anything is that the average non-projector owning guy/gal on the street has no idea what it takes to buy and install one.
Tell your dad he could have a huge 8' image for watching movies and sports for 30% less that what most HDTV (that are MUCH smaller) sell for and he'd be all over it but then hit him with:
- Must have fairly good control of lighting - dark is best, most lights out is 'okay' but no matter what direct sunlight is very very bad.
- Gotta hire someone to add a power outlet where the projector will be installed (or explain to mom why you've got a big thick black power extension cord strung across the ceiling and down the wall).
- Paint the wall 'off white or grey' and then tell mom that nothing can hang on that area of the wall *or* purchase and install a screen (additional price) than can be raised when not in use.
- Oh and when the lamp/bulb dies it'll cost $300 - $500 for a new one.
iPod users bitching about a $69 battery - they'd FREAK at the idea of a $400 'light bulb'
Projectors are nice but only when you truly know what you're getting yourself into.
Dave
And here is a little movie