The comment was not about other companies. What I meant is that complexity of a front projection system is contrary to the design philosophy of the company that brought us an iMac that could hook up to the internet in about 5 minutes from unpacking to surfing, the single wire monitor (USB/DVI/Power in one cord) and led the way in marketing the wireless home network. There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
ok, thank you for clerifying your point. I'm not convinced that Apple could not pull this off how ever...
Here's hoping they do... Steve said this was their anniversary year and that they would "make something of it"...
Setup tech: You'd be surprised. 8 years ago I implemented an auto-calibration system for a military flight simulation system. Cockpit and projectors inside a 22' sphere, sphere a custom job at each site, never perfect, sags under its own weight over time. Calibration was a *BITCH*, and took about 10 hours. So we automated it.
A CCD camera scanned the sphere, building essentially a bump map of the interior, and then an image warping algorithm reversed the bumps in software so that what came out of the projector, when it hit the variances, looked perfect.
The whole calibration process took about 30 seconds.
That was eight *years* ago.
A saw a similar system at UIST last Nov in BC using commercial components.
The important thing is, this was all in software, for both systems, prior to rendering and prior to optics - the fuzzing effects you get from optical warping in most projectors was essentially zero. (Some aliasing, but Quartz handles that pretty nicely.) Toss in some basic optic warping, ala a digital mirror array, and you can get away with some pretty farout setups that simply are impossible using any projector currently on the market.
Hey hey - keep talking. You have the expertice....eeehhh that we don't.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on a philosophical level then. To me, that article is all the more proof that Apple should stay as far away as possible from selling such a system to a consumer. What a top heavy, clumsy mess.
And that's precisely the point.
It doesn't have to be top heavy or clumsy.
Imagine being able to set that up by plopping a box down on the desk. Voila. Apple ease of use.
WiFi benefits virtually every person who uses a computer. Projection systems, even breakthrough, affordable ones from Apple, only benefit a tiny niche of pros and home theater enthusiasts. Using your "AirPort argument", Xsan should be a consumer product too.
Projectors display content (images video and PowerPoint/Keynote files), they DO NOT display interfaces. The idea of the average consumer using any projector at any price point to directly manipulate an operating system or software application is ridiculous.
Maybe I don't get it, but you sound like the people that said the TV would never get big. Why is it hard to imagine that people would like a bigger image for their movies? Why would this be a niche market? Yes WiFi benefits virtually every person, TV benefits virtually every person, but a projector that make you TV look like a stoneage device.....is niche? Please elaborate why this is so, I just can't follow your thinking on this.
Hey, maybe we will see a consumer version of Xsan for the home...iMovies...TiVo functions...AAC files etc. ?
How do you figure that? I don't know the numbers for adoptions rates, but I'd guess that the vast majority of Mac users don't use wifi.
How many people use iSight? Again, the vast majority of Mac users don't use that either. Maybe some people would think it would be cool to plug their Mac or iPod into an easy-to-use Apple projector and watch videos on the wall or a screen. It's not like everyone is going to buy one, but if it's as many as buy the iSight, maybe they'd do it.
And I don't buy all the " but the white balance won't be perfect!" arguments. They're the same kind of arguments audiophiles make about AAC purchased through iTunes. I use a projector all the time at work, and I'm sure the conditions aren't perfect, and I don't set it up perfectly, but you know what? Unless you're a hometheaterphile, it looks great.
NOW THAT'S WHAT I KEEP THINKING!!! It really sounds like there's a lot of "I only buy LP's" people in here trying to give the impression that anything other is a niche, when really it's the other way around! The niche is the group of people who can't stand anything less that the very best. I think Apple could do something here that would rock the world.... I just don't know if they will?
Projectors are taking over this department - people can't ditch their CRTs or LCD panels fast enough after trying one. The biggest problem they have? Guess. Setup.
Well that *and* killing a bulb every year or less (or in that guys case 2 every year). Then again if you can get approved for a projector as a replacement for a monitor then an extra $800 a year in bulbs shouldn't be a problem.
NOW THAT'S WHAT I KEEP THINKING!!! It really sounds like there's a lot of "I only buy LP's" people in here trying to give the impression that anything other is a niche, when really it's the other way around! The niche is the group of people who can't stand anything less that the very best. I think Apple could do something here that would rock the world.... I just don't know if they will?
...will they? ....please please pretty please...
Well, you certainly can't include ME in that group of "I only buy LPs" - I was bitten by the HT (home theater) bug quite some time ago and I'd NEVER EVER EVER go back to watching a movie on 'tiny' 50" or even 60" normal TV screen.
I measure my video screen in FEET not INCHES!
That being said ... and as I've stated before... it's MUCH more involved getting a projector setup PROPERLY (where you'll get the most enjoyment out of it) than it is to plug in a big old BOX of a TV.
One of the major benefits I see is when it comes time for me to move I've got to pack up a 7lb projector (yea okay the screen is a tad on the heavy side) but its still NOTHING when compared to moving one of those MONSTER TVs you'll find at Best Buys and such.
Can Apple build a better mouse trap?
When it comes to the following yes:
Color Calibration - Yes
Auto Keystoning - Yea probably
Auto Inverting - Yes (when you ceiling mount you usually gotta nav thru a mess-o-messy-menus to find out who to invert the picture (IMNSHO this should me automagic)
Better menu design - HELL YES (most every projector I've seen is a JOKE when it comes to interface design)
Keep it QUIET! - Yes
Efficient design that preserves and extends LAMP/BULB life - Maybe
Wireless Support - If anyone can do it I'd bet on Apple
Bring HOME Projector Awareness to the PUBLIC AT LARGE - If Apple can't do it nobody can!
Projector Mounting Techniques - Maybe ... Yes ... Apple has a way to make the complex more elegant (look at the mounting brackets included in the iSight then look at what all the other folks were doing - Elegant)
If Apple can do something that replicates a COMPLETE SYSTEM IN A BOX - screen, mounting, projector, etc - then YES Apple could very well OWN the home projector market.
I fully admit that Apple can add quite a bit to make life simpler - would it be worth it to them? I dunno... All I do know is Apple has to go one of two ways (well 3).
1 = OWN the home market with a system SO easy (and includes everything) that everyone would seriously consider it.
2 = Build a uber deluxe projector that's aimed at the MID end but provides many/most features that were once the domain of the $40k projector world.
3 = Nothing ... Apple doesn't build projectors!
I'd SERIOUSLY love for them to try and pull off #1 (but a huge risk of failure) #2 seems more likely and as much as it pains me #3 seems like the SAFE bet.
Ok so the screen thing was a bit educational, thanks. I'll never understand how a white piece of paper on a roll can cost 2000 $ ? Is that what we are talking about here....? Or did I missread something?
A projection screen is a lot more than a piece of paper, it is a surface that is engineered to reflect the image brightly and with a wide view angle. If you spend $3500-$10,000 on a projector I doubt that you would be satisfied watching the picture projected on the off-white wall in your house, or as you suggested Paper. The quality of the image wouldn't be there. In fact it wouldn't match what you could get off a rear projection.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
Who would have believed that anyone could make the Cube, before Apple did? ....
There was a company back in the early late 80's or early 90's that made a "Brick" computer utilizing a "gel" heat sync if I recall correctly. It had been done before, just not quite the way Apple did it. The main thing that Apple brought to it was the design.
Well, you certainly can't include ME in that group of "I only buy LPs" - I was bitten by the HT (home theater) bug quite some time ago and I'd NEVER EVER EVER go back to watching a movie on 'tiny' 50" or even 60" normal TV screen.
I measure my video screen in FEET not INCHES!
...so wouldn't that actually include you in this group? no offence. Hey there's nothing wrong with having a passion .....eeehhh no pun intended Mel.... I am passionate about a lot of things, seriously! I believe it's a quality one should be proud of! If your heart has not yet pounded for something....you have not yet lived!
But one just have to keep this in mind when evaluating this subject here. Last time I watched something on a projector we just threw it up on a pull down screen (cheap). It was a really old used projector - the thing weighed a ton! We were 5 watching Space Odyssey 2001 - IT WAS SO COOL just because it was BIIIIIG ! Most people don't care that much about their TV being 100 hertz either.
Comments
Originally posted by @homenow
The comment was not about other companies. What I meant is that complexity of a front projection system is contrary to the design philosophy of the company that brought us an iMac that could hook up to the internet in about 5 minutes from unpacking to surfing, the single wire monitor (USB/DVI/Power in one cord) and led the way in marketing the wireless home network. There are too many parts and variables to guarantee the quality of user experience that we and the press have come to expect, and yes demand from Apple.
ok, thank you for clerifying your point. I'm not convinced that Apple could not pull this off how ever...
Here's hoping they do... Steve said this was their anniversary year and that they would "make something of it"...
Originally posted by Kickaha
Bulbs: absolutely.
Setup tech: You'd be surprised. 8 years ago I implemented an auto-calibration system for a military flight simulation system. Cockpit and projectors inside a 22' sphere, sphere a custom job at each site, never perfect, sags under its own weight over time. Calibration was a *BITCH*, and took about 10 hours. So we automated it.
A CCD camera scanned the sphere, building essentially a bump map of the interior, and then an image warping algorithm reversed the bumps in software so that what came out of the projector, when it hit the variances, looked perfect.
The whole calibration process took about 30 seconds.
That was eight *years* ago.
A saw a similar system at UIST last Nov in BC using commercial components.
The important thing is, this was all in software, for both systems, prior to rendering and prior to optics - the fuzzing effects you get from optical warping in most projectors was essentially zero. (Some aliasing, but Quartz handles that pretty nicely.) Toss in some basic optic warping, ala a digital mirror array, and you can get away with some pretty farout setups that simply are impossible using any projector currently on the market.
Hey hey - keep talking. You have the expertice....eeehhh that we don't.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
We'll just have to agree to disagree on a philosophical level then. To me, that article is all the more proof that Apple should stay as far away as possible from selling such a system to a consumer. What a top heavy, clumsy mess.
And that's precisely the point.
It doesn't have to be top heavy or clumsy.
Imagine being able to set that up by plopping a box down on the desk. Voila. Apple ease of use.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Man, you just don't get it.
WiFi benefits virtually every person who uses a computer. Projection systems, even breakthrough, affordable ones from Apple, only benefit a tiny niche of pros and home theater enthusiasts. Using your "AirPort argument", Xsan should be a consumer product too.
Projectors display content (images video and PowerPoint/Keynote files), they DO NOT display interfaces. The idea of the average consumer using any projector at any price point to directly manipulate an operating system or software application is ridiculous.
Maybe I don't get it, but you sound like the people that said the TV would never get big. Why is it hard to imagine that people would like a bigger image for their movies? Why would this be a niche market? Yes WiFi benefits virtually every person, TV benefits virtually every person, but a projector that make you TV look like a stoneage device.....is niche? Please elaborate why this is so, I just can't follow your thinking on this.
Hey, maybe we will see a consumer version of Xsan for the home...iMovies...TiVo functions...AAC files etc. ?
Originally posted by BRussell
How do you figure that? I don't know the numbers for adoptions rates, but I'd guess that the vast majority of Mac users don't use wifi.
How many people use iSight? Again, the vast majority of Mac users don't use that either. Maybe some people would think it would be cool to plug their Mac or iPod into an easy-to-use Apple projector and watch videos on the wall or a screen. It's not like everyone is going to buy one, but if it's as many as buy the iSight, maybe they'd do it.
And I don't buy all the " but the white balance won't be perfect!" arguments. They're the same kind of arguments audiophiles make about AAC purchased through iTunes. I use a projector all the time at work, and I'm sure the conditions aren't perfect, and I don't set it up perfectly, but you know what? Unless you're a hometheaterphile, it looks great.
NOW THAT'S WHAT I KEEP THINKING!!! It really sounds like there's a lot of "I only buy LP's" people in here trying to give the impression that anything other is a niche, when really it's the other way around! The niche is the group of people who can't stand anything less that the very best. I think Apple could do something here that would rock the world.... I just don't know if they will?
...will they? ....please please pretty please...
Originally posted by Kickaha
Projectors are taking over this department - people can't ditch their CRTs or LCD panels fast enough after trying one. The biggest problem they have? Guess. Setup.
Well that *and* killing a bulb every year or less (or in that guys case 2 every year). Then again if you can get approved for a projector as a replacement for a monitor then an extra $800 a year in bulbs shouldn't be a problem.
Dave
Okay, okay... money aside... guess what the biggest, blah blah blah insert rest of previous post here
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
NOW THAT'S WHAT I KEEP THINKING!!! It really sounds like there's a lot of "I only buy LP's" people in here trying to give the impression that anything other is a niche, when really it's the other way around! The niche is the group of people who can't stand anything less that the very best. I think Apple could do something here that would rock the world.... I just don't know if they will?
...will they? ....please please pretty please...
Well, you certainly can't include ME in that group of "I only buy LPs" - I was bitten by the HT (home theater) bug quite some time ago and I'd NEVER EVER EVER go back to watching a movie on 'tiny' 50" or even 60" normal TV screen.
I measure my video screen in FEET not INCHES!
That being said ... and as I've stated before... it's MUCH more involved getting a projector setup PROPERLY (where you'll get the most enjoyment out of it) than it is to plug in a big old BOX of a TV.
One of the major benefits I see is when it comes time for me to move I've got to pack up a 7lb projector (yea okay the screen is a tad on the heavy side) but its still NOTHING when compared to moving one of those MONSTER TVs you'll find at Best Buys and such.
Can Apple build a better mouse trap?
When it comes to the following yes:
Color Calibration - Yes
Auto Keystoning - Yea probably
Auto Inverting - Yes (when you ceiling mount you usually gotta nav thru a mess-o-messy-menus to find out who to invert the picture (IMNSHO this should me automagic)
Better menu design - HELL YES (most every projector I've seen is a JOKE when it comes to interface design)
Keep it QUIET! - Yes
Efficient design that preserves and extends LAMP/BULB life - Maybe
Wireless Support - If anyone can do it I'd bet on Apple
Bring HOME Projector Awareness to the PUBLIC AT LARGE - If Apple can't do it nobody can!
Projector Mounting Techniques - Maybe ... Yes ... Apple has a way to make the complex more elegant (look at the mounting brackets included in the iSight then look at what all the other folks were doing - Elegant)
If Apple can do something that replicates a COMPLETE SYSTEM IN A BOX - screen, mounting, projector, etc - then YES Apple could very well OWN the home projector market.
I fully admit that Apple can add quite a bit to make life simpler - would it be worth it to them? I dunno... All I do know is Apple has to go one of two ways (well 3).
1 = OWN the home market with a system SO easy (and includes everything) that everyone would seriously consider it.
2 = Build a uber deluxe projector that's aimed at the MID end but provides many/most features that were once the domain of the $40k projector world.
3 = Nothing ... Apple doesn't build projectors!
I'd SERIOUSLY love for them to try and pull off #1 (but a huge risk of failure) #2 seems more likely and as much as it pains me #3 seems like the SAFE bet.
Dave
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
Ok so the screen thing was a bit educational, thanks. I'll never understand how a white piece of paper on a roll can cost 2000 $ ? Is that what we are talking about here....? Or did I missread something?
A projection screen is a lot more than a piece of paper, it is a surface that is engineered to reflect the image brightly and with a wide view angle. If you spend $3500-$10,000 on a projector I doubt that you would be satisfied watching the picture projected on the off-white wall in your house, or as you suggested Paper. The quality of the image wouldn't be there. In fact it wouldn't match what you could get off a rear projection.
Originally posted by Zab The Fab
Who would have believed that anyone could make the Cube, before Apple did? ....
There was a company back in the early late 80's or early 90's that made a "Brick" computer utilizing a "gel" heat sync if I recall correctly. It had been done before, just not quite the way Apple did it. The main thing that Apple brought to it was the design.
Originally posted by DaveGee
Well, you certainly can't include ME in that group of "I only buy LPs" - I was bitten by the HT (home theater) bug quite some time ago and I'd NEVER EVER EVER go back to watching a movie on 'tiny' 50" or even 60" normal TV screen.
I measure my video screen in FEET not INCHES!
...so wouldn't that actually include you in this group? no offence. Hey there's nothing wrong with having a passion .....eeehhh no pun intended Mel.... I am passionate about a lot of things, seriously! I believe it's a quality one should be proud of! If your heart has not yet pounded for something....you have not yet lived!
But one just have to keep this in mind when evaluating this subject here. Last time I watched something on a projector we just threw it up on a pull down screen (cheap). It was a really old used projector - the thing weighed a ton! We were 5 watching Space Odyssey 2001 - IT WAS SO COOL just because it was BIIIIIG ! Most people don't care that much about their TV being 100 hertz either.